Posts by stormybadger8

steelmaker83 said:The only thing sticking out here (again), tbf, is someone rooting for a driver. But let's be real—they'll ditch him the second he joins a team they hate... which is bound to happen eventually.

Maybe they will... maybe they won't.🤣

From what I can see, this win might actually make them favorites among the McLaren fans.😁
British fans' takes on this whole mess are always the same. It's just constant stuff like, "Ferrari's crew is totally unhinged," or "those die-hard Ferrari fanatics have lost it," and "these people don't know the first thing about Formula 1." Typical.🤣

I was literally rolling on the floor when I read those comments they posted on Sky Sports.😁

Basically, he’s pretty much constantly telling his own people they’re incompetent... he was actually being quite a jerk all through last year... there were supposedly some arguments too, though who knows how much truth there is to that.
Not that he was entirely wrong, though...

But regardless of everything, damn it, I see him as a driver who blew two massive advantages and let Sebastian Vettel snatch the title away.

Look, if you draw a parallel with the much-hated Nico Rosberg, the guy's luck totally shifted and the title fell right into his lap, but you still should have won it regardless.
And hell, he won it—no matter how it happened or under what circumstances.

Fernando Alonso fought hard, but man, his luck ran out in 2010 and 2012 and he ended up missing out again.
Okay, maybe he shouldn't have even had those chances, but at the end of the day, he was the prey that got caught... basically, he's the one who lost the title.

It's the same deal with Sebastian Vettel now. Regardless of whether Red Bull wasn't the absolute best package ever and how much of that advantage came from other people's mistakes (just like with Alonso last year), I’m still going to say Sebastian Vettel lost the championship if he doesn't take it this season. I'm not going to ramble on about some trash, ultra-dominant Lotus, Ferrari, Mercedes, or whoever else might show up later in the season.

Honestly, I was just thinking about how much everyone used to mess with me when I insisted that Sebastian Vettel was the best driver, that he’d eventually win regularly and hit podiums consistently, and that he had enough potential to be a world champion one day... maybe even a multiple champion.😁
And all of that was before Monza 2008.😍

I was just remembering how mean everyone was, refusing to let me shout it from the rooftops every single day.🙂 🤣
So fine, I'll be the bigger person and let those of you rooting for the underdog teams and drivers who might prove themselves later claim they're the best.😁

Just don't you dare come for Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, or the rest of the crew.😳
Putting others down isn't going to make Fernando Alonso any more valuable.
He's already got plenty of value and proves it on the track, but you fans just drag him down by belittling everyone else, which then just encourages other fans to start doing the same to him... and the cycle continues forever.
And honestly, it's all just stupid bickering without much sense or logic behind it.

We all know the stats anyway, and our internal gut feeling about who’s better or worse stays the same; it's hard for someone else's opinion or even results that prove otherwise to change it.

Honestly, it’s probably better without all the comments anyway 😁
Nice recap of Canadian GP...

I didn't even realize Vergne actually ended up with more points than Perez 😲
You'd think Perez screwed up by joining McLaren... but then you remember Hulkenberg is sitting in his old seat 😢

Jason Campbell70 said:Did you hear him whining about Ferrari when his car was over a second slower than everyone else?

Exactly.☕
It’s not like the old days where he’d just straight-up trash his own team. Now it’s more like, "My guys are useless and I'm out here fighting way more capable drivers and teams on my own."
Basically, the endings of these messages are all pretty much the same.

shadowstag10 said:If you actually read with some comprehension, you'd realize I value Mark Webber way more than just pointing out he has 0 world Formula 1 championships. Which is what you and your buddy keep obsessing over. And I had to fix that "F1" typo just in case you try to pivot to listing a bunch of other categories we aren't even talking about.

So yeah, stats aren't everything. There will come a day when Vettel doesn't have the best car on the grid, and if he proves he can still pull off greatness, I’ll be the first one to tip my hat and admit he’s got massive potential. Until then, I'm not convinced. For ME, Alonso is the better driver, and most fans agree.

And so, championship count is the only metric where Vettel beats Alonso...
Is that really the only thing that matters?

When did anyone ever say titles were the sole deciding factor?🤷
Basically, he's the main point in this argument, but not the only one... In fact, as far as I know, Vettel beats Alonso in pretty much every other category—even in overtakes or positions gained/lost from the grid start, regardless of how delusional people think otherwise... let alone wins, podiums, PP, FL, and so on.

The truth is, most fans hold the opinion that Alonso is the best for a very simple reason, and it has nothing to do with his driving or anything else...
It’s because Alonso drove for Renault, Ferrari, and McLaren (okay, maybe McLaren fans don't remember him in the best light 😬, but there's probably still a faction of them out there)
When you add that up, that's practically 75% of all fans. So why the surprise that everyone thinks he's the best?

But honestly, that also speaks volumes about his massive success... He's the guy who drove for the top teams and consistently had the best cars globally...
That wasn't Hamilton, Kimi, or Vettel—it was Alonso.

And what's the deal with the statistics anyway?
Group 1... Our champions are Vettel, Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton, and Button.
Group 2... Our winners are Massa, Mark Webber, Rosberg, and Maldonado.
Sure, maybe Button isn't quite on the level of those four, but he's not that far off either, and he definitely sits at the top of Group 2.
In Group 2, you've got the Maldonado anomaly thanks to mostly Pirelli and pure luck, though he's only been around for a few seasons, so he still has time to prove himself.
As for Rosberg, hmm, he's got plenty of races under his belt and didn't exactly blow anyone away, but the fact is he didn't have the tools, and he might still show something.

Regardless, Mark Webber is the peak of Group 2, right alongside Massa before the Fed era.
Massa just hasn't been the same guy since then... He shows flashes of what he used to be, but rarely.

Your memory is pretty terrible... seriously awful🤣🤣🤣

As far as I know, Alonso was definitely driving for Ferrari on October 13, 2011, so this isn't some SF story😁

Jason Campbell70 said:Like I said, Vettel becomes the youngest points scorer—big deal.
Vettel manages to become the youngest F1 winner in history—pure luck.
Vettel becomes the youngest champion in F1 history—all thanks to Vitali Petrov.
Vettel defends his title the next year in such a dominant way that people compare him to Prost, Schumacher, or Senna—is that just because of having the best car?

So what the hell does Vettel have to do to get all you random forum trolls to stop posting stuff like "Vettel isn't a real racer"? 🙄

Man, I love you😍

It’s funny, Jason Campbell70, seeing you spit on Alonso just like you used to. You spent forever dragging his championship merits, his personal life, and whatever other garbage you and your little band of "fans" on this forum felt like throwing at him...

And don't even get me started on Vettel. You treated him like a god until he was in the "wrong" team, then suddenly he wasn't so great once he started beating the "true" favorite in the "right" team.

Aside from claiming you've got "better eyes" or some other useless cliché, I honestly don't see a single actual argument coming from you...
zato 👋

Jason Campbell70 said:Hardly.
Let’s stick to actual stats and objective numbers for a second. Let's talk about that 109-109 score against a guy who finished second that year, only to go out and win the championship the next season.

Yeah, but it looks pretty obvious when you consider all those powerhouse teams Vettel had behind him. 😍

And what was Hamilton in 2007?
A double, triple... fifteen-time world champion?
Or was he maybe just a rookie? 🤷

The fact that Hamilton won in 2008 is basically proof that Alonso—who actually ended 2007 looking worse than him—is a better driver than both Hamilton and Vettel. 😵
That's some special logic right there.😂

And what if, I don't know, Mark Webber won six titles with some random team between 2014 and 2020... does that make Vettel the greatest of all time just because he beat him?
Or maybe our dear friend Rubens is the GOAT? After all, he lost his head-to-head battles against teammates who racked up eight titles combined. 😲

Anyway, let's wrap up this nonsense...
Give me one single relevant metric where Alonso beats Vettel...
Any. One.

Total Formula 1 wins, Pole Positions, podiums, points, championships, average race finish, average qualifying position, overtaking stats, qualifying head-to-head vs Vettel, race result head-to-head vs Vettel...

Is there *anything* where Alonso comes out on top in the time since Vettel entered Formula 1 (from the US Grand Prix 2007 + Canadian Grand Prix 2007 until now)? I mean, every single race they ran together.

Honestly, I have no clue. Maybe there's some obscure category somewhere, but I genuinely don't know it. 🤷
So please, feel free to enlighten me.

Until you drop even one legitimate stat or criterion proving he's better, I'm going to keep thinking this whole "Alonso is better" argument is just playground rambling.

shadowstag10 said:So now the standard for being a top driver is just driving for Red Bull Racing? Does having zero World Championships not count anymore?

As stormybadger8 would put it, 3 is more than 2, which I guess makes it more than 0—putting him right in the same league as Vergne and the rest of the also-rans (and yeah, I chose Vergne by accident)

By your logic, Mark Webber is just an average driver. Period.

Personally, I respect Webber enough to call him a top driver, but damn, so suddenly his lack of titles means he doesn't meet the criteria?

And when did I ever say Sebastian Vettel wasn't a top driver? The only thing nobody can do is prove he's better than Alonso using actual stats.

Alright, serious note from me: thanks for the "constructive" debate, but I'm out of time.

How on earth does Vergne even compare to Webber when you look at the results? 🙄
Are you trolling or just completely blind? 🙄

Unknown!!!
Mark Webber
9 wins
36 podiums
11 Pole position
15 fastest laps
917.5 career points

Jean-Éric Vergne
0 wins
0 podiums
0 Pole position
0 fastest laps
29 career points

In which one of those categories is Vergne even remotely close?🙄

Do you realize that in the entire history of Formula 1, there are only 104 drivers who have actually won a race?
And there are tons of them on the grid right now... we've got 9 of them because the competition has been insane lately... 5 World Champions plus 4 other drivers with at least one win under their belt...
And get this: Webber has more wins than seven different World Champions!
But sure, let's rank Webber in the same tier as Vergne. 😵

shadowstag10 said:Go ahead, list all those world champions he actually had as teammates.

He raced against a pretty average Mark Webber (sorry, not sorry) if you look at Webber's results, and don't even get me started on his guys at AlphaTauri.

He’s definitely got more than Alonso.🤣
Here are the titles his teammates snagged before he ever had to face them...
It's obvious you're clueless... honestly, his old AlphaTauri crew probably has more hardware than Alonso and all his former teammates combined.😬 🤣

1. Nick Heidfeld
German formula Ford 1600 - 1994
German formula Ford 1800 - 1995
German formula Three Championship - 1997
formula 3000 - 1999

2. Vitantonio Liuzzi
formula 3000 - 2004

3. Scott Speed
formula Renault 2000 Eurocup 2004
formula Renault 2000 Germany 2004

4. Sébastien Bourdais
French formula Three - 1999
formula 3000 - 2002
IndyCar Series - 2004
IndyCar Series - 2005
IndyCar Series - 2006
IndyCar Series - 2007

So yeah, Vettel's teammates have 13 titles between them, including 7 world championships.😁
Now feel free to list any big titles won by Alonso's teammates...

shadowstag10 said:So let's just ignore all the other variables and compare them strictly by the results.

There's nothing to debate here—the results speak for themselves...
And based on those numbers, Vettel is clearly the best driver on the grid right now... no competition whatsoever.
In his relatively short career, I honestly don't think anyone has ever been better during their first five seasons.🤷

What actually interests me is that whole "Ferrari" or "Alonso" metric—whatever you want to call it—suggesting Alonso is somehow the greatest of all champions, past, present, and future.🤷
That’s a mystery I can't wrap my head around. Results? Those are obvious. 3 is more than 0, and 3 is even more than 2. It's basic math, people.

shadowstag10 said:Why not just compare Nick Heidfeld vs Vettel during that Vettel-esque debut season?
Does that mean Heidfeld was incomparably better than Vettel that year?

Vettel had a win in his first full season. Heidfeld didn't have one at all, despite having a car that year capable of podiums and wins.
Vettel scored nine times as many points as his teammate, whereas Heidfeld actually trailed his own teammate...
In the races he finished, Vettel scored points 9 times and missed out only 3 times (not counting DNFs, because I can't remember if it was his fault or a mechanical failure). Meanwhile, his teammate only scored points twice, even though he had fewer DNFs than Vettel...
Heidfeld, on the other hand, finished outside the points at least 6 or 7 times, and that was in a much better and more reliable car...
That's just my quick take off the top of my head...

My overall impression is that Vettel was simply better than Heidfeld that season.
Look, I'm not saying Heidfeld was incomparably better, but even if we look at the points, Vettel was ahead—maybe by 25-30 points. Let's be generous and say he was double, though it was probably closer to a third. A thousand years of rambling from the Vettel fan army won't change that fact.

It's just like how nobody can argue with the fact that Heidfeld and Alonso didn't score a single point in their first race, or even their first full season...
While Vettel didn't just score points in his first race, he actually grabbed a win in his first full season.

Roger Wright94 said:Tens of thousands of people are telling you that results—as in the standings—aren't the one and only metric for driver quality. Fine. If you can't get that, I'm done.

Michael Schumacher took three titles and five wins back in '96 and '97 when the Ferrari was way behind Williams. Back then, I was thrilled, convinced Ferrari was on the right track and that Schumacher was a better driver than Hill or Villeneuve. Fast forward to 2006, when they lost the title to Fernando Alonso, and I felt the exact same way.
Losing the championship didn't bother me nearly as much as watching Schumacher walk away.

Alright, so what makes you "objective" when you claim Alonso is better than Vettel? What about someone saying Vettel is better than Alonso—are they just wrong???
And is your gut feeling basically the holy scripture while everyone else is just mistaken?

As far as I'm concerned, Vettel has been the better driver since 2008. So if I'm being "ultra-unobjective," at least we're clear on that.😁
But hey, my supposed bias actually has some decent stats to back it up season after season...
On the flip side, those hardcore Alonso fans don't really have anything besides feelings and tall tales.

steelmaker83 said:You’re making stuff up again. Massa was just as good, if not better, in exactly four races back in 2012. That’s nowhere near half a season. What happened—and we know it now—was clearly the result of Ferrari rushing a panicked development program. They were slapping updates on Fernando Alonso that just didn't work, all in a desperate attempt to snatch the title.

Honestly, sometimes it’s easier to explain things to a brick wall.🙄
And seriously, you aren't even reading the posts you're replying to...

You claim Webber was better than Vettel during the first half of 2010 and 2012...
Sure, he was statistically better...only because in those first ten races of both seasons—twenty total—he actually finished them without a single breakdown or getting wrecked by someone else.

Vettel, on the other hand, had four DNFs in those same twenty races, plus mechanical failures and some brain-fart pit stops in 2010 during races he actually completed. And lo and behold, he ended up with fewer points because of those retirements and failures.
But of course, it's always Vettel's fault when his alternator dies, or a spark plug fails, or the brakes go, or a wheel nut isn't tightened, or someone slams into him. Typical.🙄

In those twenty races, Webber finished ahead of Vettel 6 times, while Vettel finished ahead of him 10 times. But no, let's just say Webber was the better driver.

It’s the exact same logic as saying Massa was better than Alonso between Belgium and Japan in 2012. Sure, Massa wasn't better at the finish line once, but he grabbed more points in that stretch simply because Alonso had two DNFs.

That's like me whining about how Vettel crushed Webber in this race just because Vettel won dominantly and Webber couldn't even make the podium.
And while we're at it, I'm totally forgetting about 🙄van der Grade 😠 and how he spent the whole time riding in Webber's slipstream.

steelmaker83 said:I completely mixed up the years. I meant 2010 and 2012. In both those seasons, Mark Webber was better or at least just as good halfway through.

There's a massive difference between being "better/just as good" and actually not having constant breakdowns and DNFs...🙄
Seriously, does anyone bother explaining to Ferrari fans how Felipe Massa was freaking better than Fernando Alonso from Belgium to Japan back in 2012?🙄

steelmaker83 said:Sometimes you read posts that make you wonder about humanity... anyway, since I have to address this:

One—he’s dealing with a rookie, and based on past experience with those types, he clearly didn't realize how aggressively this kid was defending his spot. Especially considering this was a career-defining moment.

Two—it's the first lap. Tires are still cold. All it takes is one braking error and everything goes to hell.

Three—veterans. Given his reputation, he just waited to see how the kid breathed before elegantly and safely taking him out at the end of the first lap. Losing a second or a second and a half isn't a big deal compared to what could've happened if he tried to muscle the kid at the next chicane and risked some insane defensive move that would've left the rest of the field looking bad.

Four—I feel stupid even explaining this, but you're persistent, so here we go...

Who are you even talking about?🤷
And which kid are you constantly trying to defend Fernando Alonso against when nobody is even attacking him?😕
Did anyone actually say Fernando Alonso did anything wrong or needed to be ejected or whatever?🤷
Did I ever say Fernando Alonso was bad or anything like that?
🤷Good grief, the guy drove an incredible race, so why the need for all this defending when there wasn't even an attack to begin with?

unknown, I'm talking about Valtteri Bottas. 🙂 🙂 🙂
talking about Bottas, who handled everything perfectly alongside Mark Webber, Nico Rosberg, Fernando Alonso, Jean-Éric Vergne, unknown (for those not in the loop, there wasn't even contact, the guy just spun himself), Kimi Räikkönen, Nico Hülkenberg, Sergio Pérez, and Jenson Button.
Even if he was dropping down the order like a stone because his car is a total disaster, he used pure driving skill to hold his own as much as possible without ruining anyone else's race or making a single questionable move.

Roger Wright94 said:Alright, let's talk about Bottas. But seriously, you really think defending in the first lap counts as the highlight of the race?
So, we’ve actually reached the point where we lose our minds just because Alonso can't overtake someone within a mile or two during the very first lap.
Good grief, if you thought that was intense, just remember Abu Dhabi 2010! That race was pure, unadulterated adrenaline. Absolute perfection.

And don't even get me started on that last race. You want to defend Sergio Pérez in Monaco? Good luck with that. Once Valtteri Bottas actually passes his test, maybe then he'll be worth anything.

My bad, I completely forgot we were all just taking shots at Alonso—aka The Magnificent. Clearly, my brain was elsewhere when I started talking about Pérez and Bottas. Just being an idiot, I guess.

To be honest, I wasn't even paying much attention to Alonso during that Abu Dhabi race. I was mostly just watching what Vettel was up to. 😁So, it’s basically Hamilton first, then Webber...

Looks like you guys only have eyes for Alonso.🙂 Of course you guys are forgetting the obvious... Bottas was only on his seventh career race!😳
Just look at that seventh race and how they had to deal with Alonso. Honestly, it’s not even about him—any kid would have been just as much of a nightmare if it were Hamilton, Vettel, or Kimi.😉...but also to everyone else.
Honestly, out on the track, it looked like a legit duel between Alonso and Kimi, not some rookie who just climbed into an F1 car yesterday.
At the end of the day, Alonso didn't even have to break a sweat fighting Bottas compared to what he went through with Hamilton. I mean, come on—it was basically Mercedes versus Williams. 😉
Trying to defend a position in that absolute junk heap of a car? Good luck. 🙏
And that's without any bullshit, contact, dirty driving, or just being plain clueless. 😉

Just imagine what they’d pull if you had Grosjean, Maldonado, or Sergio Pérez on the lineup.

The guy definitely belongs in Formula 1, and honestly, he’s driving a much better car than that.🙂
Maybe this sounds crazy right now, but I honestly see him as a legitimate threat for wins and podiums in the seasons to come.
Not many drivers actually leave a good impression on me... but Valtteri Bottas is definitely one of them. 👍

Bottas... 😉

That first lap was pure madness, even if the Ferrari crew refuses to admit they missed it...
But honestly, keeping Alonso behind him and defending that position twice? That was the highlight of the race for me.
Williams is a total junker compared to Ferrari—and I mean a heavy-duty junker. The Magnificent almost swallowed him whole during most of that first lap.

Someone get Bottas a better car so he can actually give us something to watch once in a while.😁

Yeah, Bottas had Saturday, but let’s be real—Sunday wasn't any better from a driving standpoint.🙏
It sucks that Williams is such a total mess right now, but regardless, that fight at the start deserves 🙏 🙏 🙏

With a car that's basically a wreck, managing to hold off Fernando Alonso with that kind of masterclass driving in only his 7th career race is seriously impressive. 👍
To stay even 100 meters ahead of Ferrari in a car that slow is actually a straight-up miracle.
And his composure and positioning on the track, combined with clearly having great spatial awareness, is definitely worth some respect.
The kid handled those first few laps without any incidents or "dirty" moves...

Man, if he were in Grosjean's seat over at Lotus, who knows? Maybe he would've already grabbed a few podiums by now...

Drew Bennett68 said:Is it? Sutil blew his penalty. So, did Lujo seriously calculate that he could hold off Alonso on the straight?🤷
It looked to me like Alonso pulled two lock-ups right after he cleared Bottas at the start, but apparently, nobody’s talking about it.🤷

Hands down, the absolute dumbest move the FIA has made in the last few seasons.🙄
Dammit, PIC and driver Chilton blocked him for three or four laps while he was trying to lap them, and nobody even said a word.🙄
Vettel blew three seconds on a lap just trying to lap Kimi Räikkönen, and honestly? Nothing. Not a single thing happened.🙄

And what about Sutil? He backed off from the penalty just because Hamilton was trying to snatch his DRS, all while whining over the team radio.🙄