Posts by urbanowl96

Jerry Jones3 said:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112865

I read that a few days ago. It sounded strange to me too, but man, it would be incredible if it were true.

I haven't had a chance to look at that yet. However, the word is they intend to compete at Daytona for the next three years. It seems a logical progression, considering they have already committed so heavily to developing this new chassis and finalizing the technical details; they'll likely wait to see how that pans out before deciding on a long-term strategy.

Jerry Jones3 said:You really think so?

I actually think McLaren's first discarded engine will end up in the hands of a Japanese person. Plus, McLaren mentioned they've already started collaborating with Honda engineers on certain things. From what I can see, Honda is essentially getting a one-year head start on engine development. They'll gain massive experience through this partnership with McLaren, learning all the flaws ahead of time by studying the current best power unit and refining it over the next year while development is frozen for everyone else. It’s true that Mercedes said they'd be careful about what "information" they share with McLaren because of Honda, but the reality is that McLaren will have access to it all. We saw how the Red Bull Racing masters moved over to Renault to fix that engine; I'm sure the McLaren drivers will do something similar with Honda—maybe just lend them some staff for a bit 😁

Anyway, regarding Honda, it's a great move. It would be awesome to see more diverse suppliers, like if another team joined, or even hearing rumors about Porsche (they originally wanted in at Daytona, but Audi blocked them) or the return of Cosworth. Honestly, seeing this kind of variety in racing is brilliant, especially when you look at all these different cars 😍

Development is frozen for this current season, though everyone is free to develop the engines they intend to use next year.

Jerry Jones3 said:You really think so?

I actually think McLaren's first discarded engine will end up in the hands of a Japanese person. Plus, McLaren mentioned they've already started collaborating with Honda engineers on certain things. From what I can see, Honda is essentially getting a one-year head start on engine development. They'll gain massive experience through this partnership with McLaren, learning all the flaws ahead of time by studying the current best power unit and refining it over the next year while development is frozen for everyone else. It’s true that Mercedes said they'd be careful about what "information" they share with McLaren because of Honda, but the reality is that McLaren will have access to it all. We saw how the Red Bull Racing masters moved over to Renault to fix that engine; I'm sure the McLaren drivers will do something similar with Honda—maybe just lend them some staff for a bit 😁

Anyway, regarding Honda, it's a great move. It would be awesome to see more diverse suppliers, like if another team joined, or even hearing rumors about Porsche (they originally wanted in at Daytona, but Audi blocked them) or the return of Cosworth. Honestly, seeing this kind of variety in racing is brilliant, especially when you look at all these different cars 😍

Where on earth did you get that information? Porsche recently unveiled a new car for Daytona in the LMP1 class, and they are planning to compete with it this year.

neonfox65 said:I don't know—can't they both be car races? I mean, look at NASCAR... there isn't any ballast and they run three races in a single weekend.

Look, NASCAR races run much longer than the 25-30 minute sprints you see in the British Touring Car Championship, and F1 is even longer still. Running three races in a single weekend just wouldn't make sense given those durations.

Furthermore, we have to acknowledge that these are three fundamentally different disciplines. In F1, the engineering evolution is constant and everything is pushed to an absolute extreme; adding a mere 10 pounds of ballast to an F1 car would have a far more significant impact on performance than the 100 pounds the leader receives in the British series. Since those touring cars are based on production models, you need some form of weight adjustment to maintain parity.

Then you have NASCAR, where they race on ovals. You don't really need to overcomplicate the regulations to ensure excitement or passing opportunities; the tracks themselves practically guarantee that.
I'll admit, I don't follow NASCAR religiously—I only catch a race every now and then—but my understanding is that there's very little secrecy regarding components. You can essentially inspect any part of an opponent's car, which eliminates surprises and keeps the field tightly grouped. Since you follow it more closely, perhaps you can clarify if that's still the case, though I know it was true in the past.

It is quite gratifying to see that there are still others who follow NASCAR. Personally, I tend to catch the races on YouTube a day after the fact; since I have no urgent need to know the results immediately, this delay poses no issue for me. I began following the series last year, and I must say, every single race since then has been engaging. If we are strictly discussing the quality of on-track action, I would argue that NASCAR provides some of the most compelling racing I have ever witnessed.

silvercobra68 said:I think we can finally settle all those heated debates about who the greatest driver ever is with this one

This guy is the GOAT—ten times better than Senna, Prost, Michael Schumacher, and Fernando Alonso combined

Lionel Regal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IATNfTWvM9c

For those of you unaware, Lionel Regal passed away two months ago after crashing his vehicle into a tree near 149 miles/h.😢

On a separate note, these Formula 1 drivers tackling mountain passes are truly remarkable; one would need immense courage to pilot such a high-performance machine through those kinds of roads. I have only ever seen them racing in small towns like Buzet where the track isn't nearly as demanding, yet even then, the spectacle remains absolutely fascinating.

Quite a few Ferrari fans would love to see Luca di Montezemolo exit the organization, yet they seem blissfully unaware of what he actually achieved for Ferrari back in the early 90s. Back then, Ferrari was struggling as a car manufacturer, and the Formula 1 team was in total disarray—not to mention how Fiat stepped in to pull the whole operation out of its slump. He brought in Jean Todt, who I personally believe deserves most of the credit for restoring the team to its former glory. Of course, Ross Brawn, Michael Schumacher, and the rest played their parts, and everyone contributed, but in my view, Jean Todt was the primary architect, managing them all with precision.
Montezemolo was actually part of the Ferrari inner circle during the 70s when Lauda was dominating, and that certainly wasn't by accident.

Regarding Nebelmeister, I’d like to see stormyviper11 make an effort to write a few sentences about him. It sounded like he mentioned him being his favorite driver, and since he's a decent writer, it could turn into a rather compelling piece.

Someone mentioned hat tricks earlier, but I suspect Blažičko was likely referring to—or perhaps he was misinformed and conflating terms—a Grand Slam or a Grand Chelem (which consists of pole position, the race win, fastest lap, and leading every single lap). The last time we saw that level of dominance was when Michael Schumacher pulled it off back in 2004 at the Canadian Grand Prix. For Fernando Alonso, that was his first time achieving it, and he remains the only driver on the current grid to have managed such a feat alongside Schumacher. To date, Alonso is only the 21st driver in history to accomplish this. As for Mark Webber, he came incredibly close twice this year—once in Monaco and again in Spain—but unfortunately, someone snatched the fastest lap away from him right at the end.

silvercobra68 said:I once found myself driving in pitch-black darkness when my battery died and the headlights just cut out on me. I ended up navigating by memory alone, driving all the way from rural outskirts through the countryside, past the small towns, and winding up through the hills before finally pulling over. I even made it past the suburbs, through the industrial zones, and straight into the heart of downtown—all without a single headlight in total darkness.

What are you guys even talking about? These are nothing but tall tales. There’s zero physical evidence; it’s just oral tradition passed from person to person until the story morphs into something completely different from the truth.

While much of this is likely exaggerated, certain historical events are backed by hard facts—take the steering wheel situation, for instance:


In 1968, Jackie Stewart won the German Grand Prix while driving primarily with his right hand through the corners (securing a massive lead over second place). Niki Lauda raced despite having lost an eyelid, and once even after broken ribs from a tractor accident. Nuvolari took second place with a broken arm (though I can't recall which specific race). These aren't myths; there is photographic evidence and documentation.

Some of these other anecdotes might be true, and others probably aren't, but it remains interesting to listen to them regardless.

mistybear87 said:HEADS UP!!!! Just a quick warning: the links in this thread lead to some pretty graphic photos of Tom Pryce's accident... I wouldn't recommend clicking if you have a weak stomach.

http://d.imagehost.org/view/0084/bscap0232tu.jpg
http://d.imagehost.org/view/0980/bscap0242so.jpg
http://d.imagehost.org/view/0890/bscap0252mo.jpg

Here I am, replying in this thread since silvercobra68's corner is locked. As I recall, that situation with Clark happened during the 1965 British Grand Prix.
As for Senna and the concrete, I don't know, though I have heard that story before.
And regarding Nuvolari, he competed in over ten races while nursing various injuries. Since he used to race motorcycles before moving to cars, there was one instance where he competed right after a massive crash. I don't know exactly what was broken, but he couldn't even get onto the bike himself; others had to hoist him on and lift him off once the race ended. Then there was the podium presenter with a broken arm, the driver racing without a steering wheel (he actually held it in one hand while using the other to steer via a bar), and plenty of other fascinating tales.

Joshua Newman2 said:This definitely isn't the right thread for this, but urbanowl96, since you brought up those old-school F1 days: was it actually possible back then to swap drivers mid-race? And if it was, who ended up walking away with the points?

Yes, it was entirely possible, and both drivers would split the points. In that specific case for second place, Fangio and Collins each took home three points.

@stormybadger8 - I know this is a bit of a tangent from what we're discussing today, but when Sep mentioned it, it triggered this memory. Essentially, the point is that back then, a driver would work for the team out of their own free will. Nowadays, the moment they're actually told to do something for the benefit of the team, they completely blow it.

mistybear87 said:Let's be real: implementing team orders during those final races when the second driver has zero chance at the title is the most normal thing in the world. It happens in almost every major sport. No matter how much people try to prevent it, that's just how the game works. There is no "I" in team. 😉

I'm not going to spend my time hunting for them right now, but if you actually have an example where both drivers in the final race had a legitimate shot at the title, please feel free to share it so we can discuss. 😉
(And by that, I mean situations where one driver could have overtaken the other to clinch the championship, not those weird tactical scenarios where they just shuffle around 😉).

Ferrari pulled that move way back at the start of the 2002 season, and frankly, it felt totally unnecessary. Jean Todt famously remarked at the time, "Why should we risk losing the championship over 3 points? We'd look pretty foolish if we didn't act," which, considering how dominant their car was, felt like a massive understatement. We all know how 2002 wrapped up anyway... whether it was the driver shouting at the pit wall to let him through or the team making the call, does it even matter?

If you want a different perspective, check out Top Gear, Season 15, Episode 3. It’s worth seeing what Red Bull has to say about that whole incident. 😉

There haven't been many instances like that, but my personal favorite goes all the way back to the 1956 Italian GP. It was the season finale. Fangio had to retire, leaving Moss in the lead and Collins sitting in third. For Collins to snag his first world title, he needed to finish second; otherwise, Moss would take it. Musso, driving a Ferrari (just like Fangio and Collins), was sitting in second place. He was asked to hand his car over to Fangio, but he refused—he wouldn't yield to Fangio, and he wouldn't let Collins through either. Eventually, Collins pulled into the pits, voluntarily handed his car to Fangio, and Fangio finished second to secure his fourth title. If Collins had just kept racing, he likely would have finished second anyway since Musso dropped out, making him the first Englishman to become a world champion—yet today, almost nobody remembers his name.

So, here we have a single team where team orders were ignored and true teamwork was completely absent.

stormyviper11 said:I had no clue about that, but it’s pretty obvious Ertl jumped the gun and started that race when he shouldn't have, and honestly, there were a bunch of other similar screw-ups too. You can find all the gritty details here over on the old Autosport nostalgia forums—that's basically where I picked up like 90% of what I actually know about Formula 1 and everything else on the track. 🙂

I was dead certain the Heyer situation was a one-off, but apparently, those kinds of opportunistic types back in the seventies were everywhere... just a regular occurrence, really.

Then you’ve got that legendary tall tale about a "lost" Mercedes showing up at Le Mans, which is... well... though it might just be another urban legend out there... 😁

I actually stumbled upon this in a different thread on that same forum (which, for the record, is a brilliant resource; you can find 99% of anything you'd ever want to know about motorsports there), but it only mentioned that both Heyer and Ertl competed when they shouldn't have. I didn't find this specific thread you've posted, but while browsing another one today, I found data suggesting that even Schenken made an illegal start for Lotus at the 1974 US Grand Prix. Interestingly, he also started the 27th race and was actually disqualified for it, unlike Ertl.
So, while it's obvious Heyer isn't the only one, it is curious how many people remember his case and constantly bring it up, whereas finding any information on the others is a struggle.

stormyviper11 said:I had no clue about that, but it’s pretty obvious Ertl jumped the gun and started that race when he shouldn't have, and honestly, there were a bunch of other similar screw-ups too. You can find all the gritty details here over on the old Autosport nostalgia forums—that's basically where I picked up like 90% of what I actually know about Formula 1 and everything else on the track. 🙂

I was dead certain the Heyer situation was a one-off, but apparently, those kinds of opportunistic types back in the seventies were everywhere... just a regular occurrence, really.

Then you’ve got that legendary tall tale about a "lost" Mercedes showing up at Le Mans, which is... well... though it might just be another urban legend out there... 😁

I haven't heard that particular story, so I shall have to look into it. I am, however, familiar with a few accounts from the Targa Florio and the Mille Miglia involving "lost" drivers, though in those races, getting turned around was far easier given the nature of the courses themselves.

Terry Lewis24 said:I think you might be slightly off there, because back in '76, there wasn't a fixed rule stating that 26 drivers would start every single race
instead, it really varied from one event to the next; for instance, during those street circuits that season, they’d often have
only 20 drivers starting (though more had the chance to qualify), and at the Spanish Grand Prix, there were 24...

...he entered the race illegally🙏, though I just stumbled upon some info suggesting Harald Ertl did the exact same thing in France back in 1976.😲 I’ve been digging around a bit, and I can't find anything explicitly saying he competed illegally, though there are a few odd details...

Every site I’ve looked at seems to say everything was fine (at least from what I’ve managed to find) 🤷
Which specific site were you looking at that claims his qualifying time was actually faster than
Damien Mageea or Ingo Hoffman's?

By the way, Hans Heyer was banned from further competition for that exact same reason in Formula 1, yet Harald Ertl was allowed to carry on racing without any issues, which makes me wonder if there really was anything controversial about it after all...

True, but even then, it topped out at 26—never 27—and the starting numbers always seemed to be an even count.

Terry Lewis24 said:I think you might be slightly off there, because back in '76, there wasn't a fixed rule stating that 26 drivers would start every single race
instead, it really varied from one event to the next; for instance, during those street circuits that season, they’d often have
only 20 drivers starting (though more had the chance to qualify), and at the Spanish Grand Prix, there were 24...

...he entered the race illegally🙏, though I just stumbled upon some info suggesting Harald Ertl did the exact same thing in France back in 1976.😲 I’ve been digging around a bit, and I can't find anything explicitly saying he competed illegally, though there are a few odd details...

Every site I’ve looked at seems to say everything was fine (at least from what I’ve managed to find) 🤷
Which specific site were you looking at that claims his qualifying time was actually faster than
Damien Mageea or Ingo Hoffman's?

By the way, Hans Heyer was banned from further competition for that exact same reason in Formula 1, yet Harald Ertl was allowed to carry on racing without any issues, which makes me wonder if there really was anything controversial about it after all...

If you look at the official archives, they list him at 29th place.

On f1-facts.com, they record his qualifying time as 1:53"79, which puts him in 29th.

Then there's statsf1.com, which lists his time as 1:53"49, placing him 27th.

Now, some other sources suggest a time of 1:53"59 (which would make him 28th), while others stick to 1:53"79. It is quite difficult to determine which data set is the absolute truth here, but the consensus among most major databases is that he finished 29th.

Terry Lewis24 said:I think you might be slightly off there, because back in '76, there wasn't a fixed rule stating that 26 drivers would start every single race
instead, it really varied from one event to the next; for instance, during those street circuits that season, they’d often have
only 20 drivers starting (though more had the chance to qualify), and at the Spanish Grand Prix, there were 24...

...he entered the race illegally🙏, though I just stumbled upon some info suggesting Harald Ertl did the exact same thing in France back in 1976.😲 I’ve been digging around a bit, and I can't find anything explicitly saying he competed illegally, though there are a few odd details...

Every site I’ve looked at seems to say everything was fine (at least from what I’ve managed to find) 🤷
Which specific site were you looking at that claims his qualifying time was actually faster than
Damien Mageea or Ingo Hoffman's?

By the way, Hans Heyer was banned from further competition for that exact same reason in Formula 1, yet Harald Ertl was allowed to carry on racing without any issues, which makes me wonder if there really was anything controversial about it after all...

That is precisely why I find it so perplexing. How could he participate in that race under the guise of everything being perfectly standard, when both 1975 and 1978 saw 26 drivers on the grid at that track? (In '77, they raced at Dijon instead). As I noted previously, the number of starters always appeared to be even.

I have a question here, and I suspect stormyviper11 might have the answer, though if anyone else has heard anything regarding this, please do speak up.
Essentially, I am well aware of the incident at the 1977 German Grand Prix where Hans Heyer made an illegal appearance in the race🙏, but I have recently come across information suggesting that Harald Ertl pulled a similar stunt in France back in 1976.😲 I have done some digging, yet nowhere does it explicitly state he competed illegally, though there are several peculiar discrepancies. During that era, races typically featured about 26 drivers, yet in this specific instance, there were 27 (with Ertl being the 27th). Furthermore, most records indicate he posted the 29th fastest qualifying time. If the organizers had allowed a 27th driver to start for whatever reason, they logically would have selected those with the 27th or 28th fastest times (specifically Magee and Hoffmann). My question, then, is quite simple: why was Ertl able to participate in that race, and how on earth did he manage to pull it off?🤷

On another note, I simply cannot resist sharing this photo of Harald.😁

Michael Diaz4 said:I don't exactly write about everything. And as for that fire extinguisher... Hmm.🤔

Regarding the fire extinguisher, the facts are quite grim. He collided with a security guard who was recklessly sprinting across the track while clutching an extinguisher. That guard died instantly on the spot, and the impact sent the extinguisher flying directly into Pryce's head, killing him as well.

Amy Brooks said:Or take someone like Jean-Pierre Jabouille (correct me if I have his name wrong),
back during that wild era of turbo engines and ground effect aerodynamics, he used to strap his right leg directly to the cockpit above
the throttle just to make sure his foot didn't slip off the pedal when those massive lateral G-forces hit him while flying
through a corner 🙏

It’s these kinds of old-school stories that I actually find fascinating; everything feels a bit flat and indifferent by comparison these days 🤷

It is an interesting point of fact that back in 1982—the final year of ground effect and side skirts—lateral forces in corners reached an incredible 2.2 G.😲 Compared to modern cars, that number seems almost trivial, given they easily pull 4.5 to 5 G now.

Frankly, I suspect that to improve the quality of racing, we ought to simply reintroduce steel brakes to extend stopping distances, along with classic manual gearboxes where driver error can actually manifest itself. Furthermore, engine development should focus on widening the performance gap between individual chassis.

On a technical note, it is actually the diffuser, rather than the external wings, that generates the most turbulent air behind the car; therefore, the planned restrictions on diffuser dimensions for next season will likely prove to be a very wise move.

stormyviper11 said:It was a grueling race that spanned nearly the entirety of South America. Somewhere up north, around the borders of Bolivia or Peru, they went off the track, resulting in a fatal accident for the co-driver—an event that haunted Fangio for the rest of his life.

Yes, I am well aware that those races were incredibly long and quite exhausting to follow. 6215 milesIt was comparable to the distance covered in the Dakar Rally, all while navigating those vintage pre-war vehicles.

stormyviper11 As I have previously observed:
What happened at the Monza Grand Prix was essentially a direct consequence of pure exhaustion. Just twenty-four hours prior, he had been racing in Ireland, and he’d actually arranged for Prince Beer to fly him out on a private jet. Unfortunately, Beer backed out early; he wasn't willing to wait around, so he simply took off without him. To make matters worse, the weather was so abysmal that flights were grounded across much of the United States. Fangio ended up struggling through various airports just trying to catch any available flight, eventually landing in Lyon. From there, he actually borrowed a car and drove himself all the way to Monza just before the race began. Immediately after the start, he suffered that horrific accident that resulted in a broken neck. For the rest of his life, he couldn't turn his head to one side—to the right, if I recall correctly—by more than a few degrees. Yet, even with such a debilitating handicap, he still managed to secure four more championship titles.

I recall hearing that Fangio and another driver actually made the trip to Lyon together, at which point the other fellow lent him his car, allowing Fangio to finish the leg to Monza on his own. There is also something about that right-hand turn that just doesn't sit right with me; even during the Mille Miglia, he ended up taking second place in a vehicle that didn't struggle with those right-hand bends.😁

stormyviper11 said:To be perfectly honest, the conclusion of that all-time classic thread is actually quite simple: the more you learn about Fangio, the more obvious it becomes that every other driver who ever lived—regardless of what they accomplished or how many trophies they collected—can do nothing more than stand up and offer him their deepest respect. 🙂

I find myself in complete agreement here. I haven't encountered so many fascinating tidbits about any other driver that would lead me to genuinely consider them one of the greatest to ever sit in a cockpit.

stormyviper11 said:It would be quite interesting to see which specific timeframe this covers.
For instance, Jenson Button has a relatively poor statistical record, yet one should really examine his performance during his mature years, or perhaps look at how things change if we only count the seasons where he actually had a competitive car. It’s highly probable that a significant portion of his data comes from fighting through the pack after being stuck in the back, and let us not forget that in 2007 and 2008, the man was driving one of the absolute worst cars on the grid, which naturally left him more vulnerable to those kinds of incidents. This also helps explain Lewis Hamilton's comparative lack of incidents; the fellow rarely found himself languishing at the back of the field.

I remember looking at statistics for former drivers some time ago. I found it fascinating that Emerson Fittipaldi, during a rather wild era of Formula 1 spanning roughly 150 races—if my memory serves—only finished out of a race due to spinning or crashing four times. Meanwhile, I believe Fangio never once retired due to such a thing (though he did suffer a serious accident during qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix in 1952), which only reinforces my conviction that he was the Greatest of All Time and the most complete driver to ever sit in a cockpit.

Yes, I have come across that statistic regarding Fittipaldi elsewhere, and it truly is compelling, particularly when you consider he spent a good chunk of his career in subpar machinery.
If you are referring to Fangio's accident where he broke his neck, that wasn't the Italian Grand Prix, but rather a Monza Grand Prix or something similar—likely a non-championship race. Furthermore, I don't believe it happened during qualifying, but rather during the race itself. In any case, Fangio never once retired from a championship race because of his own error, and over his entire career of about 200 races, I only know of two accidents involving him. Besides that one, there was another during a race akin to today's Dakar Rally, where his co-driver was killed (though I know little else about that particular tragedy). That accident was precisely why he almost never utilized co-drivers during the Mille Miglia or the Carrera Panamericana.

stormyviper11 said:Let’s put it this way:

Is the championship title really decided by whether or not a driver can successfully bounce a car off a solid concrete barrier?

Michael Schumacher would have likely assembled an entire task force just to help him heave a car over a wall, and then he'd simply hop right over it himself.
Jenson Button was actually trying to coordinate a group of people to help him move his car, but he ended up slipping and taking a nasty fall himself. If he hasn't broken a leg, he certainly managed to go right over the wall.
It’s almost impressive, in a deeply frustrating sort of way. He would throw himself headlong into a wall just trying to force a pass, and then—with complete sincerity—he’d act like the wall was somehow at fault for being in his way.
Sebastian Vettel would have thrown himself against a wall in pure frustration, likely breaking down in tears while apologizing to both the crew and the fans for acting like such an idiot.
Fernando Alonso would probably assemble a whole crew just to scale that wall, though I suspect he’d lose his patience every third or fourth attempt while waiting around, eventually deciding it would be easier to just try and knock the damn thing down.
Felipe Massa would have been weeping in Adrian Newey's arms instead of even attempting to clear that wall.
The rest of them wouldn't even know which way was up, let alone how to tackle a wall—though I suppose Robert Kubica or Nico Rosberg might eventually figure it out.
Rubens Barrichello would have spent all that energy trying to scale the wall, only to realize someone else had already scaled it before him.

.

stormyviper11 said:A minor, albeit slightly outdated, addendum...

Kimi Raikkonen would have probably knocked back a liter of vodka, decided he simply couldn't be bothered with the rest of it, and wandered off to go jump over some walls instead.

Haha, solid post.
Robert Kubica might have hit a wall at some point, but let’s be honest—it felt like nobody was actually willing to lend him a hand to get over it.
It is actually quite an interesting exercise to view the championship from this particular angle. It makes you wonder—if Juan Pablo Montoya hadn't hit something else before making contact with the wall, who exactly would he have pointed the finger at? He’d likely be looking for someone to blame.

One really ought to consider the fact that nearly all the revenue from sponsors whose advertisements are broadcast on television flows directly to Bernie.