Posts by Susan James

analogseal18 said:One certainly maintains the right to appeal a teacher's recommendation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mastering grammar or history, yet I find myself questioning the wisdom of insisting on specific facts that certain students merely memorize superficially for a midterm only to forget them moments later. In our American school systems, one can clearly observe this glaring discrepancy between high letter grades and actual performance on standardized diagnostic tests.

For those particular children who possess no genuine interest in absorbing the curriculum, such academic requirements are little more than a waste of precious time—time that might be better utilized to solidify foundational knowledge they will carry for a lifetime, or perhaps to acquire practical skills. Should they not be focusing on learning a trade properly, becoming self-sufficient adults who are genuinely capable of earning their own living?

I couldn't agree more.
It's honestly tragic how much interest students lose just sitting in a classroom memorizing useless facts. On top of that, the system sends them this message that they're failures just because their grades aren't perfect. They end up wanting to escape those schools because they feel so out of place, which leads them into various social services or counseling programs, making things even more complicated. Eventually, they might end up in alternative schools where they still end up cramming nonsense and picking career paths they have zero passion for.
Maybe they would have been interested if they had been engaged earlier, felt better about themselves, and actually felt curious about the world.

And don't even get me started on certain vocational programs; in my opinion, half of them shouldn't even exist.
Or rather, they only exist to keep certain job positions filled.
They don't follow the actual needs of the American job market, and the students get absolutely nothing out of them.

hiddendriver34 said:I’m starting to feel like pushing back the start of school is just another way we try to smooth out the edges of life for our kids. We want everything to be easier, more comfortable, and totally stress-free for them—but honestly? In the long run, I think we’re doing them a massive disservice. It’s like trying to protect someone from a scraped knee by never letting them walk; you end up making them weaker. I actually stumbled upon this article that really drove home that point for me: link.

That article is excellent. Honestly, though, I think delaying school can actually help kids manage stress better and prevent parents from falling into the trap described in the piece.
I don't see extending preschool as a way to create an "easy" life. To me, it's a vital window where children, free from the pressure of schoolwork and extracurriculars, can just be on the playground or at daycare. It's where they practice social skills, learn how to handle anger, sadness, or fear, and figure out how to resolve conflicts with peers and adults. They get to learn without the constant pressure to be "the best" or the looming shadow of having to finish homework, make posters, or meet academic expectations and rankings.

I think if a child isn't emotionally ready for school yet, a parent can easily fall into the trap of overprotecting them compared to other kids. Since the child eventually has to attend school regularly and complete assignments, parents might think, "It's not good for them to stay upset or sad for too long because it might hurt their performance."
So then, the parent either fights those battles for them or prevents them from ever facing them.
It ends up turning a child's natural development into something artificial.

Free play hasn't hindered anyone's development; in fact, kids learn so much through play during these pre-school years. It should be their main activity. I personally wouldn't cut it short or swap it out for a mountain of obligations.
The real issue arises when it doesn't matter if a kid starts school at 5, 6, or 8, because the parent is essentially playing for them and teaching them *how* to play. Or even worse, when they are already overloaded with activities by the time they're three and a half.

urbantinker8 said:Maybe they could just check their watches and solve the problem on their own without feeling such an urgent need to have someone double-check their work?🤷

To be honest, I feel that way about pretty much every subject, not just foreign languages. Looking back at some of the comments from a few pages ago, it seems like things are viewed differently when it comes to staying in the US.🤷

In that sense, most kids are going to be more independent with their schoolwork if they're at a 7.5 level rather than a 6.5.🤷

urbantinker8 said:I think I'm on the exact same page as you here.
I honestly don't see how having an after-school program would somehow support the idea of pushing back school start ages?😕
I mean, by the time a kid is seven and a half, they're usually much more independent and responsible, so maybe they could just hang out at home for half the day and wouldn't even need the program anymore?🤷

Well, by the time they hit 8.5, they're already in second grade.
Plus, quite a few schools around JPMorgan Chase don't even offer after-school programs after first grade. So even if they were available, based on how this is being described, I wouldn't even sign my kid up for one until second grade (and honestly, that one year makes a huge difference).

And looking at it from the perspective of someone getting the chance to play in preschool versus spending 8 hours stuck in an elementary school;🤷 I much prefer the first option.

Just a side note: I'm sure preschools vary wildly in terms of what they offer and how engaging they are. Some kids just never "click" with preschool and find it much easier when they finally start formal school. Also, some after-school programs are wonderful, nurturing environments, while others are basically just an extension of the classroom where they have to grind through work—except maybe for Spanish homework, since the supervisor probably doesn't know it (and let's face it, most parents wouldn't either, so I'm not sure how much help a kid would actually get).

So, that pretty much covers everything regarding the school after-care programs.
🙂

Honestly, hearing how you all describe these programs makes me feel like delaying school enrollment is actually a great move.

Also, when you mention those "extra credit" points for early development, it got me thinking—some parents are probably being really careful not to have their kids born right at the end of August. Personally, I think a September 1st birthday is the sweet spot.
I mean, sure, they won't be enrolled in preschool unless they have a specific connection, but they’ll be heading into elementary school as full-fledged seven-year-olds.
😍

vividhound60 said:Hey ladies,

quick question for all you moms with preschoolers out there... I was wondering how often you hear about kids being told to wait another year before starting kindergarten? And if you have, did you catch any of the reasoning behind it...
I was just chatting with a friend who’s actually paying for private school prep classes for her little one (seriously?!!!???) and she’s absolutely freaking out about the idea of him sitting out a year...😲

Private prep classes??????😕😕

Well, delaying enrollment can happen for all sorts of different reasons. We've actually touched on this quite a few times before we started talking about after-school programs.🤣

It usually comes down to things like emotional maturity, social skills, focus levels, physical restlessness, speech delays, or just general readiness for the classroom environment.

urbantinker8 said:Honestly, I'm just not sure how everyone envisions this after-school program working out.😁
Do you really think the instructor just sits there at their desk for four hours, lost in their own world, while a room full of kids works frantically on assignments without a single break?

No way—homework usually takes maybe thirty minutes at most. The rest of the time should be all about play and having fun!

rowdypanther12 said:Actually, they are required to write it down.😁

I agree about the homework, though; if they're in after-school care, there shouldn't be much left to do at home. That said, I know sometimes if a kid has language arts homework, they're told they have to do it at home because of some silly argument that the after-school teacher isn't a "language expert."
😕
I don't really get why the teacher needs to be an expert in the subject; it's the student doing the work, not her.🤷

I mean, kids who can already read and write can just knock it out during after-school care—it only takes a minute.
But what about the little ones who haven't mastered their letters yet? How are they supposed to do homework at home?
Or will Mom end up doing the work for them? 😠🙄
(It’s funny how Mom is allowed to help them sound things out, but if an after-school instructor tries, suddenly it's "unprofessional.")

rowdypanther12 said:Actually, they are required to write it down.😁

I agree about the homework, though; if they're in after-school care, there shouldn't be much left to do at home. That said, I know sometimes if a kid has language arts homework, they're told they have to do it at home because of some silly argument that the after-school teacher isn't a "language expert."
😕
I don't really get why the teacher needs to be an expert in the subject; it's the student doing the work, not her.🤷

True, ☕
but then they end up looking silly in front of the kid if they get asked a question and are expected to be an absolute genius.😬
Plus, they might feel embarrassed in front of their coworkers if a student shows up without their homework or with the wrong assignment.🤣

It shouldn't be seen as a problem if a child doesn't understand something; they should just be able to ask their teacher for help first thing the next morning.

frozenrider15 said:No, they aren't so monumental that they require parental intervention, nor are they constant (don't get me wrong, it’s not an every-week thing; there are just a few per semester). So where is the friction? It's timing and organization. Much like summer reading lists, kids usually wait until the eleventh hour. But a project requires actual time. If the assignment is "My Family" (say, during the first semester), you need to carve out moments to chip away at it. You print a photo of my family, write down names, snap a picture when you visit the zoo, glue it all down... then take a photo during the winter holidays... by then, they can write a bit better, so you jot down a few sentences... it takes time, just like any other project. If you try to tackle it the final week before it's due—which is what most kids do—then you've got pure chaos on your hands. And yes, I think parents should offer some guidance; if nothing else, help them organize their workspace or figure out where to glue things and draw. They aren't exactly independent toddlers in the first 😁

It also happens (if the kids are in after-school care) that a teacher assigns something meant specifically for home. For instance, a worksheet where a child needs to write their birthdate and address. Most first graders haven't mastered that yet (since it's right at the beginning of the year, it feels redundant to even ask because they might not know all their letters, but hey, who asked...), so parents end up pulling their hair out. They think, "We signed them up for after-school care, and now suddenly there's homework coming home... when are we supposed to find the time?" They almost expect the kid to hand it in first thing in the morning like they're in preschool, and then just pack it up like a suitcase in the afternoon. That's not how it works. That's why they're caught off guard and frustrated (well, not everyone, certainly!).

I'm planning on using after-school programs too, and honestly, I won't stress over it. I'll just request that all the schoolwork gets completed while they're actually at school.
By the way, do they still push for nap times in after-school programs? (I remember that being a thing back in my elementary school days here in the States)

On another note, regarding things like addresses, birthdays, and phone numbers—I actually see that as part of "school readiness." It's important for them to know who their parents are and where they live, so if they ever get lost, they can actually tell someone who they are.
They might not need to be able to write it all out perfectly yet, but they definitely should be able to say it out loud.

frozenrider15 said:Oh, please, it’s really not that big of a deal 😁. This forum exists precisely so we can hash things out and share some actual perspective. There will always be people arguing both sides of the postponement debate. If parents actually understood what's ahead—specifically what their kids are going to face in first grade—they might realize their fears are completely baseless. Their little ones would breeze through it without breaking a sweat. For instance, Susan James just realized her kid is more than ready 🙂.

Anyway, I'm covering my ears; I won't derail the thread again.

No way, no way!
I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea;
my child can already handle everything expected in first grade, but emotionally and socially, they are still lightyears away from being "school-ready."
If I were to delay starting school, I’d do it for one simple reason: every child deserves an extra year of pure playtime in their life.
You have a lifetime to learn endless definitions and complex concepts, but you can only be a kid right now.

By the way, I was actually surprised by how much of the first-grade curriculum is pretty straightforward. I really don't get why some parents feel like it's this massive academic burden for a six-year-old, especially if they stay in after-school care.😕😕
In my opinion, a child with average intelligence and a decent interest in learning should be able to grasp the material during class time (assuming the teacher is engaging and makes things interesting).
What I don't understand, though, is why they need to practice all that stuff at home?
Aside from reading books or comics together and practicing math while shopping at Target, I don't see the point.😍

I’d really appreciate it if we could all play nice and hold off on the commentary regarding teacher workloads or the school schedule 😍

Based on everything being said about what happens in first grade, I honestly feel like I could just send my kid to school tomorrow without worrying about any homework at home (especially since they'll be staying for after-school care anyway).
Even though they’re still pretty emotionally immature, legally speaking, they aren't even required to be in school for another two years 😬

Now that the topic of finances has come up, I actually know a few families who were pretty vocal about delaying enrollment because public school is free, whereas preschool definitely isn't cheap ☕

Brian Barnes5 said:So, what kind of criteria are they actually using during these interviews? It feels like trying to measure the ocean with a teaspoon when you're attempting to judge something as layered and complex as whether a kid is truly ready to hit the classroom.
Just because a little one isn't emotionally primed for kindergarten at six and a half doesn't mean there's anything wrong with their development.
We all want to make the absolute best call for our kids, but honestly, if I'm going to miss the mark, I’d much rather be "wrong" by letting them have a boring extra year of playing than being "wrong" by throwing them into the deep end where they're expected to perform tasks they can't grasp, leaving them feeling totally overwhelmed and defeated.

Signed,
By the way, I honestly think any child can learn to read, write, do math, or memorize the seasons and months by age four, five, six, or seven if they get enough practice.

To me, the most important thing is that a child develops a genuine hunger for learning. They should be curious, learning through play (which is basically their full-time job!), and figuring out how to handle both wins and losses. It's about giving them space to express their feelings and thoughts while also learning how to respect others.
Before I send my kid off to tackle academic facts, I really want them to know how to stand up for themselves, resolve conflicts, take responsibility for their own stuff, cross the street safely, and maybe even grab something at the grocery store.

Honestly, between the rigid structure of school and the way some parents take over homework—doing the work *for* the kid instead of *with* them—it feels like the system is practically designed to kill a child's natural drive to learn. That's why I feel it's so important to wait as long as possible, especially if the little one is still deeply in that playful phase.
Of course, if they aren't being drilled with worksheets in preschool, then the timing matters a bit less...

@pink, you didn't mention—what does he actually think about school? Does he even realize what it is or what happens there? Does he show any interest in going, or does he ever engage in pretend "school" play?

Richard Morris43 said:I feel like I’ve been badgering everyone I know about this same old topic, so I figured I’d come over here and bug you guys for a bit too 🤣😳. My little guy was born back in February 2008, which means he’s technically supposed to hit the ground running in kindergarten this coming fall. But honestly? I’ve been leaning pretty hard toward holding him back for another year, especially since he’ll only be six and a half when the school year kicks off.
It’s one of those things where nobody can ever seem to agree, right? You’ve got some child psychologists swearing by delaying enrollment, while others think it’s a terrible idea. Even his preschool psychologist told me that holding him back might not even be necessary, though she did mention that sticking him in daycare for one more extra year could be a total double-edged sword depending on how it plays out.
The academic testing went perfectly—zero issues, no signs of being "behind" or developmentally immature at all. And yet, here I am, still obsessing and weighing my options like crazy.

So, what’s the consensus here? Is it actually better for a kid to start school at seven and a half, or is there more to it when they go in at six and a half?

But how can you even delay him if he's already met the age requirements? He's already passed the testing and showed no signs of being behind.😕

With kids right on that age cutoff, I’d definitely lean toward waiting a year, too...
They won't miss much academically, but they'll never get back that one extra year of carefree playtime.

And what does he think about it? Does he talk about school or seem interested? How does he usually play?
Is he the type who's always running around, climbing things, exploring nature, or playing soccer? Or is he more of a quiet kid who prefers drawing, coloring, or listening to stories? Can he sit still for a bit during playtime, or does he prefer more sedentary activities?
How was he with his pre-K assignments back at daycare?

Charles Murphy6 said:I used to work in school health services 👏—covering all four grade levels—so believe me when I say I’ve seen enough dirty ears and unkempt nails to last a lifetime🤣🤣
My little girl doesn't have the slightest clue that I even see an issue here. I just keep my mouth shut.
As for why she carries cash around every single day? Honestly, I haven't a clue... though I do know some little delinquent broke in once and I'm terrified my girl might end up spending it all 🙄 so I suppose she feels the need to account for every cent she has on a daily basis... at least that's my best guess..
And besides that—what if someone swipes it while she's out at recess since some of the kids stay in the classroom while others head outside? They have a few real "characters" in her class who definitely know she's carrying cash..
If I catch her, I'll just give her a subtle, pointed lecture while she's taking off her backpack at home.. 🙂
And let's be real, she's a model student through and through—she definitely takes after her mother:)))))

Hey, maybe try checking in with the homeroom teacher to see why they need everything collected on a daily basis.
Regarding the break period—honestly, on those days when everyone is gathering around, they don't exactly go out of their way to socialize with the other kids. But leaving them alone in the classroom just to run to the restroom? That doesn't strike me as the smartest move either.

So, how are those little gems coming along? Honestly, if she’s the one collecting them, everyone’s going to find out pretty quickly that she’s the one with all the capital. 😕

One thing that really bugs me about these multi-day get-togethers is how they can sometimes foster a bit of irresponsibility. It feels like you constantly have to nudge people or play the role of the nag just to get them to show up or follow through on what they promised to bring. I personally prefer things to run a little more smoothly, without having to pull everyone along by the sleeve!
Let's just pick one specific day for the collection and call it a day. Once that date is set, we can move forward!
There’s no such thing as "I forgot, I'll do it tomorrow." In my experience, that's just a polite way of saying it isn't happening. Once you start letting those little delays slide, they tend to snowball pretty quickly. It’s much better to just tackle it right when it hits your radar! 🙂
You just gather up all the cash along with the list and hand it over to the clerk at the front desk. That’s how I always used to do it—I'm not sure if everyone else handles it differently!
Anyone who didn't bring their stuff in was told by the parents to get it there before the end of the workday.
I’m not entirely sure how much of a social welfare aspect was involved there. It’s possible the goal was actually to support students who were struggling to make ends meet, with those funds being covered by the school’s general budget or something similar. Even so, the kids were incredibly consistent about bringing their money in. We ended up collecting for all sorts of things—everything from basic insurance and charity drives for kids overseas to field trips, school plays, and various student clubs and activities.

edit:
I’ve been thinking a lot about hygiene lately—specifically when it comes to keeping things sanitary in our daily routines. It’s one of those small things that really makes a massive difference in how you feel throughout the day! 🤣
Around here, those were almost always the doctor's kids. 😂

Charles Murphy6 said:Is it actually standard practice for elementary schoolers—and honestly, maybe even middle schoolers too—to be appointed as class treasurers?
My little girl was apparently "honored" with this prestigious little responsibility.🙄.
Now she’s constantly lugging around whatever cash they're collecting for some school project, and frankly, I can't say I'm thrilled about it.
It isn't like we're talking about some massive fortune here, but the fact that she's carrying it back and forth between home and school every single day just sits wrong with me.
Beyond that, it's our money—the lunch money or pocket change I hand her for her sandwich or whatever else. This whole setup just infuriates me.
Shouldn't the teacher be the one handling the collections instead?

I used to be the class treasurer myself👋
but that feels like a lifetime ago! I feel like there was less theft back then because we all basically had the same amount anyway.🤣
Usually, they’d pick the "model" students or the ones who were really good at math to handle the funds.

I don't really get why she has to carry it every day, though.😕
As far as I know, collections usually have a specific window of time.
In most schools I work with, kids are told to bring their money by a certain date because that's when the deadline hits.
And typically, it isn't the teacher collecting it, but a trusted student.

edit: and I see amberskipper3 signed off—looks like we're on the same page!

By the way, even at my kid's preschool, they collect money for the holiday shows on the morning of the performance. I’ve never had to pay a day early for anything.🤷
I'm sure it would be much easier for the teacher to collect it a day in advance and drop it off at the front office, rather than dealing with the headache of managing our spare change from $67 for a show that only costs $20 or $25.😂

Rachel Jones8 said:Honestly, wouldn't it be super weird if that class didn't already know? They've been together for four years.
If his dyslexia was kept a secret between his parents, him, and the teacher—like it was something shameful to hide from the other kids—then someone really messed up there.

I really hope everyone calling for her to be fired over one mistake—without even considering her apology or her actual effort to fix things—has had a few jobs they lost themselves along the way.
...Not talking about quitting on purpose, but actually being let go because of a mistake that's unforgivable.
Because let's face it, nobody's perfect.

Rachel Jones8 said:Not me either, but seeing how much people are freaking out about it... it’s like they think the rest of the class doesn't know and it would be embarrassing to say it in front of them.
But honestly? If everyone knowing was just considered normal, wouldn't saying it be fine?
It's actually kind of weird that none of his friends jumped in to "clarify" to the teachers that their buddy has dyslexia.

Personally, I don't see anything positive or helpful about a child standing up in front of the whole class and saying, "I have dyslexia" just because they made a mistake.

In my view, it’s perfectly fine that the boy didn't say, "I messed up because of my dyslexia," and it's also fine that the class didn't go to the teacher and say, "Hey, just so you know, he has dyslexia." 😕
What would the teacher even do with that info?
Would she look foolish for not knowing?
Or would she just feel a wave of pity? Or worse, might she snap and say, "Why are you making excuses? That's not in my records"? 🥳
No matter how you look at it, it wouldn't help the kid, and I worry the backlash could be pretty damaging...

But yes, the teacher absolutely should have been informed about the basic needs and characteristics of every student.
She should have taken the time to get to know them before jumping straight into assessments and grading.

I don't see any benefit in having students perform on the board or take tests during the first week or two.
Unless, of course, it's just a way to assert authority. 🥳

I honestly can't find a single post here where anyone is actually calling for the teacher to be fired.
I've looked, but I really can't find it.
🤷

Most people are talking about a formal warning or some kind of disciplinary action—something meant to serve as a wake-up call for her and her colleagues that this behavior isn't acceptable. But seriously, nobody has said she needs to be fired on the spot.
And of course, there's plenty of criticism regarding how she acted. The way she spoke and the content of what she said just wasn't professional given her role and position.🙂
We definitely need to have an open, critical conversation about that.

What’s funny, though, is how quickly a whole crowd of self-appointed defenders of teachers popped up to criticize parents and kids.🥳
It feels like we're split into two camps.
Like two fortresses just waiting for a battle to break out.

If you try to look at this from an individual perspective or just try to see the situation through one person's eyes instead of looking at the core issue, you get zero points.
It's like everyone is just following the same script.
😢

By the way, everyone seems to be forgetting one crucial part of why the teacher's apology matters: if the little boy hadn't come home and told his mom (and she was smart enough to check with the other kids first to get the full story before bringing it up at school), this whole thing would have been swept under the rug. There would have been no apology, no correction of behavior, and who knows—maybe she would have made even more mistakes down the road...
In that case, the school would basically be accepting that it's perfectly fine to tell people they're "stupid," and that attitude would just carry on all the way through high school.

When I mentioned that respect has to be earned, I was primarily thinking about the fact that if someone approaches a student at the very start of 5th grade with such disrespect, how on earth can they expect to earn the respect of that student or anyone else in the classroom?
😕

wanderingbadger44 said:Did you perhaps move here from Finland?

Society in Finland truly understands the point you're making.

In America, we've only made it halfway there; people are quick to demand these high standards from educators, yet we aren't quite ready to acknowledge how massive that responsibility actually is or compensate them in a way that reflects its true value.

The brain drain and the decline in quality within our school systems are the natural fallout of that imbalance.

I’ve actually visited Finland twice as a tourist, 😍

But really, what I’m talking about here are the fundamental basics of being a decent human being.
I feel bad for not mentioning this sooner—I honestly assumed it was a given—but we need to model adult behavior for children. It’s just that educators and professors carry a bit more weight in this regard; there's an expectation that they possess this awareness, that they chose this calling intentionally, and that they know how to pass those values along.

It breaks my heart when the relationship between two people (in this case, a professor and a student) is viewed strictly through the lens of money or the "price" of labor.
Sure, many professions are underpaid—doctors, nurses, retail workers, so many others—and in every single field, you'll find people who do a great job and those who don't.
Beyond just how the task is performed, I think it is incredibly important to look at the kind of interpersonal relationships being built (or destroyed) in the process.

And by the way, the very "society" that fails to recognize the value of teaching was raised by the teachers of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Maybe the people in power today simply
didn't have great experiences with their own schools and teachers. 🤷
Shouldn't today's teachers, through their own example and dedication, be shaping the future leaders and policymakers to understand just how vital and responsible this work truly is?

Gosh... there is just so much misunderstanding and generalization happening here...

When a kid makes a mistake in front of the chalkboard—any kind of mistake—you simply ask if they see what went wrong. If they don't, you might ask again, gently point out the error, and ask them to fix it. That’s how you turn a moment into a teaching opportunity.

It is never okay to ask a child if they are stupid or hard of hearing. It's definitely not okay to call them stupid, and it certainly isn't right to demand a child announce their dyslexia to an entire classroom just because they made a slip-up.😕 😲

Let me say it again: teachers serve as a primary behavioral model for kids during those 5 or 6 hours they spend at school every day. You have a chance to provide a blueprint for healthy behavior that a child might not be getting at home—or even if they are, that school model is just as powerful, and in some situations, even more influential.
Kids aren't just in school to learn reading and writing; they're learning so much more than that.

Is that really so hard to grasp?😕
School is still an educational and developmental institution. To me, a massive failure in guidance like this can't just be brushed off with a weak apology—especially when people take the stance of, "Well, it happens, kids these days are even worse anyway," and so on.

By the way, I honestly don't get why so many of you here felt personally attacked by a critique of a "colleague's" mistake and immediately assumed the finger was being pointed at you.
Instead of having a reasoned discussion, you're all jumping to defend yourselves by attacking parents and students, acting like they're the real problem.😢
What exactly are you educators trying to protect yourselves from here?😕
Did any of you actually tell a student they were stupid, deaf, or crazy? Did any of you insult a child in any way? Is anyone actually debating *your* conduct?
I truly don't understand.
Where is all this endless solidarity coming from for a colleague we don't even know?

And yeah.
The teacher did come forward and apologize, which is great, but *when* did she do it?
Did it just occur to her spontaneously, from the heart, three minutes after she let "Are you stupid?" slip out?
Was it after the bell rang? After she saw the look on the child's face?

No.

And that makes a massive difference.