Posts by Susan James

melloworca6 said:So, who decided to start playing favorites, and whose fault is it? 🤷

Are we supposed to just turn a blind eye to teachers insulting students because the administration is too incompetent to discipline problematic kids? (What does that even have to do with the topic?)

Not quite. Since the administration knows they have people in their own ranks acting disrespectfully, it would feel incredibly hypocritical to hand out disciplinary measures to a student without also addressing the professor's behavior.

amberskipper3 said:I’m sitting here reading this and honestly, I’m just baffled by how quick everyone is to pull the trigger when it comes to firing someone.
It’s wild how those same parents can turn around and have completely different standards when they're looking at their own kids in high school, for example.
There’s just no such thing as consistency around here.

What kind of different standards are we talking about?
Most of the parents here have kids in preschool 😬, with only a few in elementary school

And speaking of different standards, a teacher should really be the gold standard for good behavior.
If a teacher acts this way in an elementary school, how can we expect high schoolers to show respect—either to their teachers or to one another?

Just to reiterate: the issue isn't just how calling a kid "stupid" affects that one student, but how it impacts every other child watching. After all, if a teacher thinks it's okay to call someone stupid, why wouldn't a child think the same?😕
How can that teacher—or anyone else on the faculty—maintain any real authority when it's clear that adults "can't help themselves" from acting like this?

By protecting staff members who act this way, a lot of great teachers are actually undermining their own profession.

shadowrider28 said:The moment I caught sight of this thread's title, I knew exactly which direction this conversation was headed 🙄

It seems absolutely nobody cares about how the child actually felt; instead, everyone is just waiting for a chance to launch a crusade against the teachers. Is it really any wonder? This is just the way things are in America ☕

Actually, I think quite a few people have noticed how the child is feeling and how much support they've received.
From what I can tell by reading the posts here, the mother seems like a very caring parent who genuinely tried to look at the situation objectively, support her son, and seek justice.
And she did it step by step.
First, she listened to her child and tried to figure out the facts—not because she didn't believe him, but because instead of rushing to the school or posting on a US parenting forum immediately, she reached out to the other parents in the class to see if his story aligned with what they saw.
After that, she calmed down, talked things through with others (both friends and strangers), and then finally went to the school administration.
To me, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable way to handle it.

Honestly, I think most educators would be lucky to have a parent like this in their classroom.

If a teacher makes a mistake, they need to take responsibility for it.
An apology in front of the whole class is a nice gesture, but since this error goes to the core of her profession, I personally don't think an apology alone is enough.
Nobody is calling for her to be fired, but a formal warning or some extra oversight of her work seems completely justified to me. It serves as a lesson for her and a reminder for her colleagues too.
Even if we aren't talking about disciplinary action, I feel like she needs to make things right with the student somehow.
Whether it’s through extra help or something else, there should be an effort to restore that sense of security and confidence the child lost after being humiliated in front of the class.

I have no issue discussing corporal punishment, whether we're talking about the past or the present. I definitely don't want to bury my head in the sand; I truly believe it’s vital to talk about these things so we can learn from our mistakes.

However, in this specific thread—where a member asked for help regarding her son's situation at school—the conversation shifted away and focused on incidents from back in 2013. We're looking at an instance involving an American English teacher whose behavior had all the hallmarks of verbal abuse toward a child with special needs.

In my view, the discussion was heading in a perfectly fine direction until the topic of physical punishment was brought up. While that kind of discipline might have been common or even socially acceptable through the early 90s, what this teacher did is just as painful for a child today as it would have been in '91. The only difference is that under the mindset of "kids should be hit," such actions might seem less severe or even dismissible.

Maybe I didn't steer the conversation clearly enough, but I worry that allowing the debate to drift toward "it used to be even worse" will end up minimizing what happened here. It risks creating a narrative where people accept that since society has changed so much, a "little slip-up" like this isn't a big deal because even worse things happened in the past...

I'm genuinely concerned that the core issues—like holding teachers accountable, teaching kids socially acceptable communication, and ensuring educators act as healthy role models for how people should treat one another—will simply get lost in a sea of nostalgia for how things were handled in the last century.

I really don't want to spend my time playing referee or constantly deleting off-topic posts, which is why I issued a warning (admittedly, a vague one). When I say to focus on the present, I don't mean you can't reflect on the past, but we need to consider what message we're actually trying to send when we describe how things used to be.
Personally, I think we can use the example in the original post to discuss how much work still needs to be done. There is still a massive need for changes in how authority figures approach children, and we shouldn't have to dredge up even darker stories from the past—whether from our own lives or others'—just to prove that change is necessary.

Things are certainly better than they were in '87 or '91, but that doesn't mean things are good.

Larry Walker24 said:And what about back in the day, when teachers used to beat kids regularly with a full blessing from the parents?

I know this isn't really what we're here to discuss🥳

It’s in the past, and hopefully, it stays that way.☕

Jonathan Ortiz2 said:I don't know about your neck of the woods, but... around here, it isn't a big deal if one professor spends their time badmouthing everyone. The real issue is when a professor singles out one or two kids and makes them a "poster child" or starts isolating any group of them. But if they treat everyone equally poorly, nobody ever complains.

And let's be real, it’s way harder on a kid when they get singled out or used as an example. Meanwhile, when a teacher tells the whole class they're all idiots, we just shrug it off as "character building"... especially with kids in 5th grade or even high school.😁

How is that not a problem?
😕😕😕
Are you saying it's okay for a teacher to verbally lash out at an entire classroom, and the only issue is when they target one specific student?
Sure, targeting one child might feel more personal, but both situations hurt.

Both of them ARE a problem.
Kids learn by watching their teachers.
They take that behavior and carry it into how they act with their peers, and eventually, how they act throughout their lives.
Not every kid has a solid support system at home or a good role model to look up to, so school is often where they need to find that guidance.

amberskipper3 said:You don't just kick people out of their jobs like that—it's not like they hand out yellow cards and warnings like it's some soccer match.
If a teacher is struggling with communication, you deal with it by sitting down with a counselor, a psychologist, or the principal. You track their progress and work, and things usually get better if everyone actually gives a damn.
But honestly, all too often, especially in smaller towns, principals lack any real pedagogical training, making it incredibly hard to even flag these issues in the first place.
Plus, if a kid grew up in a supportive home where their self-esteem was actually nurtured, these kinds of outbursts won't do much damage. But a child who's already struggling? They absolutely need to be shielded from these verbal attacks.

I agree with all of that, but I find it absolutely mind-blowing and unacceptable for an adult, especially someone in the teaching profession, to tell a child they are "stupid."
I mean, what kind of person says that to a student they’ve barely even met? It's not like they've been dealing with this kid's antics for three years straight and finally snapped during eighth grade after a hundred little incidents...
This woman is just starting to build a rapport with this student and the rest of the class. Her relationship with them dictates how effectively she can teach and what the classroom atmosphere will feel like.
She is supposed to be the role model for behavior in that classroom.
If she gives herself permission to call someone stupid, how can she expect the kids not to say it to each other, or to her, or to any other adult?
And honestly, who would even want to learn from someone like that?

It seems obvious this child comes from a healthy environment and has support. They could have easily talked about what happened and asked for help, which benefits not just them, but the whole class, since everyone gets clarity on what is and isn't okay.
And if she had been honest and authentic, the kids might have actually learned something from her mistake—though I highly doubt her story was sincere. If she were truly being heartfelt, she would have spoken up immediately after saying it, rather than waiting until the kid's mom showed up at the school.

If I were the principal, I’d start by giving her a formal warning instead of jumping straight to firing her, but I would definitely ramp up the oversight on everything she does.
I'd make sure to drop in on her classes much more often, bring in a school counselor or psychologist to sit in on a session, and keep a much closer eye on all her paperwork.

First off, there's the issue of her being disrespectful to the student, and second, the fact that she failed to account for his specific needs or adjust her lesson plans accordingly.

Beyond just offering a public apology, I really feel it's on her to figure out how to make things right for the boy, given both what she said and her failure to adapt the curriculum.

silverraven14, I think you've hit the nail on the head, but this teacher also has a serious professional lapse here—beyond just that outburst in class, she didn't modify the curriculum for a student with special needs. If that's truly documented in the child's file, then honestly, there is no excuse for being unprepared or failing to accommodate him.
"Individualized instruction" shouldn't just be a buzzword principals use in reports to justify smaller class sizes; it actually means tailoring the material to meet a child's specific learning challenges.

Peter Doyle2 said:@nosorog, please don't try to lecture me on my own tastes (my current 🤣). I’ve come to the realization that I’m basically just revisiting where I left off as a kid :O My reading level is pretty much stuck in the teenage years—which is probably why most of my Goodreads profile is dominated by YA 🤣
Jokes aside, you made an interesting point... genres, eras, history... sure, I agree, but I have to ask: is it actually necessary to read these works cover-to-cover as required school reading? Is it really insufficient to just analyze them during class? To me, it feels like a high schooler in music class being forced to listen to and memorize an entire Bach concerto in G major (just guessing here), rather than just the most essential movement.
I'm speaking from the perspective of a teenager—or at least, a young person who is constantly "at odds with everyone." Honestly, forcing this stuff on us feels like reading "Evangelion" to five-year-olds in preschool 🤷. A large portion of these books simply wasn't written for kids that age—and we are still talking about children 🤷
And regarding the books themselves—they're supposed to be read with deep understanding. Very few people here mentioned Faust. Luckily, we didn't read it, though I've heard of it; I know there are those for whom it was mandatory, but seriously, is THAT what a high schooler needs? Isn't there a more appropriate way to "introduce" that literary era and teach the facts and significance?

@Daniel Perez6, I'm not nearly as optimistic as you. I'm actually kind of afraid that the book itself might simply—vanish—under the flood of technological advancement. Or perhaps it will become a very, very rare phenomenon—something akin to oral folklore before the invention of the printing press 😉
Maybe it's just inevitable 🤷
So how does high school required reading fit into all this? In my opinion, it doesn't encourage students to read at all; if anything, it pushes them away because of the sheer volume and content.
I'll say it again: we are talking about children (regardless of how much teenagers feel they are adults).
Which books require you to "immerse" yourself in characters who are adulterers, murderers, and so on, living in entirely different eras.

edit: And honestly, in defense of my high school teachers, I have to say they never asked us (or did so extremely, extremely rarely) questions about the color of curtains, wallpaper, or things like that. Our high school reading assignments usually boiled down to discussions during free periods. Sometimes there would be a quick review or even "tests," but generally, they were discussions. It wasn't a bad approach at all. Really. I can't blame my teachers one bit for my aversion to high school reading lists. I blame the content itself. I may have been a high school student, but I was also a teenager—dealing with wild hormones and a desire for something intimate when dealing with something deeply personal, individual, and open to interpretation, like a book.

In American English, we have grammar, literature, workbooks, and all of that (except for grammar) covers almost the exact same thing—the specific period or movement currently being studied. Why does the required reading list—which, realistically, is already becoming an alien concept to an increasing number of kids—have to be tied specifically to that curriculum?

🤣It actually lines up perfectly with what the kids I work with are reading 😬

By the way, I asked around yesterday (since I get to see into several different elementary and middle schools), and it turns out everyone gets one elective book per year based on their own interest.

As far as I know, they don't read everything in its entirety (certainly not the Bible, and most people aren't reading the Iliad or those massive epic poems either).
But hey, how are you supposed to manage something like *Anna Karenina* or *Madame Bovary*?

Peter Doyle2 said:@nosorog, please don't try to lecture me on my own tastes (my current 🤣). I’ve come to the realization that I’m basically just revisiting where I left off as a kid :O My reading level is pretty much stuck in the teenage years—which is probably why most of my Goodreads profile is dominated by YA 🤣
Jokes aside, you made an interesting point... genres, eras, history... sure, I agree, but I have to ask: is it actually necessary to read these works cover-to-cover as required school reading? Is it really insufficient to just analyze them during class? To me, it feels like a high schooler in music class being forced to listen to and memorize an entire Bach concerto in G major (just guessing here), rather than just the most essential movement.
I'm speaking from the perspective of a teenager—or at least, a young person who is constantly "at odds with everyone." Honestly, forcing this stuff on us feels like reading "Evangelion" to five-year-olds in preschool 🤷. A large portion of these books simply wasn't written for kids that age—and we are still talking about children 🤷
And regarding the books themselves—they're supposed to be read with deep understanding. Very few people here mentioned Faust. Luckily, we didn't read it, though I've heard of it; I know there are those for whom it was mandatory, but seriously, is THAT what a high schooler needs? Isn't there a more appropriate way to "introduce" that literary era and teach the facts and significance?

@Daniel Perez6, I'm not nearly as optimistic as you. I'm actually kind of afraid that the book itself might simply—vanish—under the flood of technological advancement. Or perhaps it will become a very, very rare phenomenon—something akin to oral folklore before the invention of the printing press 😉
Maybe it's just inevitable 🤷
So how does high school required reading fit into all this? In my opinion, it doesn't encourage students to read at all; if anything, it pushes them away because of the sheer volume and content.
I'll say it again: we are talking about children (regardless of how much teenagers feel they are adults).
Which books require you to "immerse" yourself in characters who are adulterers, murderers, and so on, living in entirely different eras.

edit: And honestly, in defense of my high school teachers, I have to say they never asked us (or did so extremely, extremely rarely) questions about the color of curtains, wallpaper, or things like that. Our high school reading assignments usually boiled down to discussions during free periods. Sometimes there would be a quick review or even "tests," but generally, they were discussions. It wasn't a bad approach at all. Really. I can't blame my teachers one bit for my aversion to high school reading lists. I blame the content itself. I may have been a high school student, but I was also a teenager—dealing with wild hormones and a desire for something intimate when dealing with something deeply personal, individual, and open to interpretation, like a book.

In American English, we have grammar, literature, workbooks, and all of that (except for grammar) covers almost the exact same thing—the specific period or movement currently being studied. Why does the required reading list—which, realistically, is already becoming an alien concept to an increasing number of kids—have to be tied specifically to that curriculum?

Just like they'd want to immerse themselves in vampires 😕

Aside from the mandatory assignments, I used to pick up other books by authors on the syllabus if they caught my eye (for example, after finishing *Crime and Punishment*, I dove straight into *The Idiot* and *Dmitri Karamazov*. I even took a week off sick just to finish them! 😬)
I also read various works I heard about in English or German class. Back in junior year, we had a substitute teacher for a few months—this super cool hippie girl who got us all hooked on Hermann Hesse. I almost considered studying German seriously, but I ended up spending more time with the American translations of his work rather than grinding through German grammar.
When I add it all up, I’ve definitely spent quite a few hours just lost in books.
My parents used to think I was staying up late at night because I was grinding through school reading assignments.
But honestly, back in high school, we were already rotating through Tolkien, Stephen King, Kundera, Huxley... stuff that was miles away from any standard curriculum list.
I don't know, maybe I just happened to end up in a classroom full of bookworms, but I don't remember any of us hating reading because of our required reading lists.

Peter Doyle2 said:@nosorog, please don't try to lecture me on my own tastes (my current 🤣). I’ve come to the realization that I’m basically just revisiting where I left off as a kid :O My reading level is pretty much stuck in the teenage years—which is probably why most of my Goodreads profile is dominated by YA 🤣
Jokes aside, you made an interesting point... genres, eras, history... sure, I agree, but I have to ask: is it actually necessary to read these works cover-to-cover as required school reading? Is it really insufficient to just analyze them during class? To me, it feels like a high schooler in music class being forced to listen to and memorize an entire Bach concerto in G major (just guessing here), rather than just the most essential movement.
I'm speaking from the perspective of a teenager—or at least, a young person who is constantly "at odds with everyone." Honestly, forcing this stuff on us feels like reading "Evangelion" to five-year-olds in preschool 🤷. A large portion of these books simply wasn't written for kids that age—and we are still talking about children 🤷
And regarding the books themselves—they're supposed to be read with deep understanding. Very few people here mentioned Faust. Luckily, we didn't read it, though I've heard of it; I know there are those for whom it was mandatory, but seriously, is THAT what a high schooler needs? Isn't there a more appropriate way to "introduce" that literary era and teach the facts and significance?

@Daniel Perez6, I'm not nearly as optimistic as you. I'm actually kind of afraid that the book itself might simply—vanish—under the flood of technological advancement. Or perhaps it will become a very, very rare phenomenon—something akin to oral folklore before the invention of the printing press 😉
Maybe it's just inevitable 🤷
So how does high school required reading fit into all this? In my opinion, it doesn't encourage students to read at all; if anything, it pushes them away because of the sheer volume and content.
I'll say it again: we are talking about children (regardless of how much teenagers feel they are adults).
Which books require you to "immerse" yourself in characters who are adulterers, murderers, and so on, living in entirely different eras.

edit: And honestly, in defense of my high school teachers, I have to say they never asked us (or did so extremely, extremely rarely) questions about the color of curtains, wallpaper, or things like that. Our high school reading assignments usually boiled down to discussions during free periods. Sometimes there would be a quick review or even "tests," but generally, they were discussions. It wasn't a bad approach at all. Really. I can't blame my teachers one bit for my aversion to high school reading lists. I blame the content itself. I may have been a high school student, but I was also a teenager—dealing with wild hormones and a desire for something intimate when dealing with something deeply personal, individual, and open to interpretation, like a book.

In American English, we have grammar, literature, workbooks, and all of that (except for grammar) covers almost the exact same thing—the specific period or movement currently being studied. Why does the required reading list—which, realistically, is already becoming an alien concept to an increasing number of kids—have to be tied specifically to that curriculum?

It’s because they absorb the material faster and actually retain it longer that way.
At least that worked for me (by the way, everything in our workbooks was super closely linked to the books on our required reading list).
It encourages you to form a critical opinion about the movement, the author, and the works themselves, rather than just memorizing random facts.
And like I mentioned, it's much easier to get immersed in an era and truly feel what it was like back then...
Later on, you can connect all of that to art, music, historical eras, and the political climate. I used to hate history class—it felt like a mountain of useless dates and names to memorize—but now, whenever I pick up a book, it really helps me grasp the atmosphere if I already know what was happening in that historical period or what the politics were like at the time.

Besides, if the required reading wasn't connected to the curriculum, wouldn't we basically have to learn the material AND read extra mandatory books on top of it? Wouldn't that just make the workload even heavier? 🤔

amberskipper3 said:Actually, I disagree.
The whole point of required reading is to give students a roadmap of literary movements, history, theory, language, and the specific styles that defined different eras.
We pick these specific works because they’re the clearest examples of those concepts in action. It's about teaching the fundamentals through representative classics.

Here’s my take—I think this is a pretty clear explanation of what required reading is actually for.
I don't really get why people are complaining so much about the book selection available to students.
Is it just so we have more time to read Harry Potter, Twilight, or Fifty Shades of Grey? 🤣

Personally, I feel like any book from a specific movement exists so that through reading, you can experience the era, the history, the society, the philosophy... you feel the author and the movement itself.
Reading these books builds an understanding of that time period and helps you form your own opinion on the movement, the writer, and so on.
Literary movements are part of the curriculum, just like they are for art, music, philosophy, or history.

Honestly, I don't see how you can learn any of this from just reading summaries.
Sure, you might pick up bits and pieces from a summary, but if the goal is just to memorize that there was some Romanticism era where a guy wrote letters to his sweetheart, or some Realist in a trench coat copying texts, then it's probably better not to study at all.
The more condensed a summary is, the faster you forget it.
That’s just how our brains work.

I understand what some people are trying to say—that certain teachers made them hate their required reading, which then made them hate reading in general. But even if we assume the reading list is optional, a bad English teacher isn't going to change, nor will they significantly help someone develop a love for reading.

And I'm not sure why everyone is focusing solely on the English teachers. Our history teacher used to constantly introduce us to various writers and incredible works... he’d even talk about movies, music, and fine art. He really went out of his way to broaden our general culture and encourage us to read and explore.
It was the same thing in our foreign language class, though we were all a bit disinterested back then, and since it was a language we were still learning, our ability to debate it was pretty limited. We just didn't have the capacity for it.
For me, though, I heard about plenty of great books during those classes that kept my motivation alive.

In fact, I know very few people who actually stopped loving reading because of a school assignment.🤷

Usually, what kills my zest for life (not just reading!) is spending eight hours straight reading piles of reports, plans, and all sorts of politically correct nonsense...
In moments like those, those old-fashioned, boring high school dramas, poems, or epics actually seem like little picture books compared to the harsh reality I actually have to deal with.

To practice reading comprehension, sometimes we have to read things we don't particularly enjoy or have high expectations for. We also need to encounter strange dialects or different writing styles and struggle with things that aren't immediately clear... to me, that’s exactly what good required reading is for—it's great exercise.

So, I do think that required reading in elementary school has lost its purpose. I'm afraid that most parents are getting too involved—helping with the reading, the writing, pushing their own views on the book before and after it's read. As a result, the child becomes a little robot just trying to snag another A, without ever actually attempting to think about what they read (if they even read it at all).

Jesse Fox5 said:The way teenagers talk to each other these days is just... wild. Honestly, even back when I was in high school, I talked totally differently with my friends—but it never once crossed my mind to turn around and tell my mom to eat dirt or call her an idiot.
I just don't get how this is considered "normal" for some people. Everything seems to be "normal" now—even kids acting like they're way older than they actually are—so where does it end?
In my opinion, it’s all because kids aren't spending enough quality time with adults anymore. They're either glued to their friends or just staring at a screen alone. It’s like letting ten puppies loose in a living room and expecting them not to tear the place apart. Unless Mom or Dad steps in to take control, there's just going to be chaos.
It’s the same thing with kids in general. They're going to push boundaries. It's honestly sad that some parents let their kids get away with absolutely anything. And then, the second you try to point out the nonsense their kid is pulling, they turn around and attack *you* instead of actually dealing with their child.

Did anyone here actually say that what she told her mom was considered normal? 🤔
What are you even talking about?😕

And did you actually run into that girl's mother?

Also, by the way, how did everyone else at the table react when she said that to her mom? Did everyone just sit there in awkward silence and judge her under their breath (only to vent about it on a forum later), or did people actually speak up and show they were disgusted?

Linda Morris61 said:Look, if I had said something like that to my mother back in the day, I would have received at least one solid slap right across the face—it was the bare minimum.
Even just telling them to "shut up" used to cause a moment of hesitation—they’d really think twice about it. I lived on that razor-thin edge myself, though I always made sure to apologize immediately.
Well, damn—I suppose it's just the result of my lackluster upbringing. 🤷

But what if she only heard that expression once? Would that make it justifiable then?
And another thing—do you truly not find an expression like that to be both bad and shameful?

Well, I never actually said it was justifiable. 😕

It’s completely valid for a child to feel angry or frustrated when they can't have something they want—that’s just a feeling, and they have every right to feel it.
But the way she chose to express that feeling isn't okay.

What I was trying to get at is that I don't believe punishment—especially something like a slap—would actually help her learn how to handle her anger properly.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if she heard the expression once or a thousand times; what matters is that she needs to learn how to express herself without hurting anyone else.
And that is a skill that has to be taught.

I've tried to explain this on several other threads (mostly ones focused on little ones) that kids really need role models. They need guidance on how to behave and support in learning how to channel their emotions appropriately. Just using punishments or sanctions doesn't teach them what *to* do; it only teaches them what *not* to do.
They need examples to follow and timely corrections on what's acceptable behavior versus what isn't.
They also need to hear how their actions make other people feel...

Jesse Fox5 said:Great. Just great.
So here's a question for you. My cousin has a 9-year-old daughter. She never disciplines her because... well, she doesn't want to "stifle her personality."☕
And I actually got a front-row seat to how that kid reacts when she's told "no" for perfectly valid reasons—like when she couldn't go horseback riding when she wanted to. We were all sitting at the dinner table and this little girl looks her mom straight in the eye and says, "I'd love to just take a dump on your head and in your mouth right now."
Talk about an awkward moment for everyone involved. And of course, the kid didn't face a single consequence for it.
Is that what we're calling parenting now? It's honestly pathetic.
So, please, oh wise one, I'm dying to hear your "expert" opinion on this.

In my opinion, she actually *is* stifling her personality by not letting her go riding whenever she wants.🤣🤣🤣

If you look closely at your example, the mother actually did set a boundary. She gave the child a limit, showing her that she can't just have everything she wants all the time.
The fact that the child couldn't get her way proves that boundaries are being set. 😳

The child reacting with anger to being told "no" is actually pretty normal and expected. However, the fact that she expressed that anger with a sentence so vile that it turned your stomach tells me that this kind of language is likely common in her environment. To her, this is just how people talk.
It sounds like she simply hasn't learned any other way to communicate.
And honestly, you aren't going to fix that kind of communication through punishment. You fix it by modeling better behavior and teaching her socially acceptable ways to express frustration and disappointment. My gut feeling is that a 9-year-old hasn't seen many examples of that at home.
At the end of the day, I'm not even sure what kind of punishment would actually help in a situation like this.

Jesse Fox5 said:I mean, seriously. Kids these days are just straight-up disrespectful... they have zero regard for anyone, especially older people, and they just don't listen. And you guys aren't doing anything about it either. It’s like, everyone thinks it's just some "phase," but then this behavior just keeps happening and happening. Like, where are the consequences? There have to be boundaries... I mean, what are we even doing here? How can you expect any kind of respect if there isn't any discipline or basic rules for how to act in public?
Look, if a kid comes home late once after hanging out with friends—fine, life happens. But if they do it ten times in a row? Yeah, no. They should be grounded, period.
Honestly, I really don't get how some people here are claiming they haven't achieved anything by setting limits... if you can't set boundaries, you basically have zero authority.
What's even the point of being a parent if you just let them run wild and do whatever they want? If that's the case, just start your own little gated community and let them go crazy there.

Where exactly are you seeing that nobody reacts to bad behavior?
Who is saying that there aren't any rules in place?
Who isn't teaching proper manners?😕

Who is claiming that children are just being left to run wild and do whatever they please?
And what was your actual point in making this post?
🤔

Charles Murphy6 said:The penalties don't mean a damn thing to me—considering I haven't even been penalized myself, so thanks for that input.🙂
I was being ironic when I mentioned stifling her creativity—honestly, that was never even on the table.😉
And apparently, you’ve been eavesdropping on us too, haven't you?😁
I did exactly what you instructed me to do... no, I am not feeding her empty platitudes, believe me, that hasn't even crossed my mind.
Tears are perfectly acceptable in our household. Being emotional is fine. But this is one of those situations where she thinks shedding tears means I’ll just wrap her in a hug and call it a day without actually talking, and she almost always starts screaming along with the crying whenever we try to have these kinds of discussions. That said, I don't forbid her from crying (though I'm not quite sure how I would even manage that), but I absolutely will not tolerate the screaming.
Thanks again. The whole concept of penalties is totally off. That’s what I thought anyway, but hey, I have this forum, so I ask.😉
She has never once been defiant toward me before. I simply want to teach her how to be a young lady who actually thinks about her actions. It's just like you said—when someone truly hurts her, she becomes incredibly distraught.

I just couldn't help but comment (and I won't try to judge whether you meant it ironically or not, though I'm pretty sure you’d be heartbroken if you actually took away her creative outlets 😛).
It might surprise you, but so many parents do exactly that.
They punish their kids by taking away the things they love most. It happens all the time—maybe a kid isn't getting the grades they should be (and it's not always about failing, just not meeting expectations), or they come home late, slam doors when they're frustrated, or just give one-word answers and refuse to help out around the house. Parents end up grounding them from sports practice or taking away their guitar, their art supplies, or their jewelry-making kits. These things are such vital outlets for kids to vent stress and relax, and they often serve as the motivation to go back and do the chores or tasks the parent wants done after they've had a chance to blow off some steam.

There are even books and "experts" out there claiming that withholding what a child values most is the best way to handle things... as if that works perfectly. 🙄
Sometimes people even provide literal "punishment recipes."

I'm personally not a fan of punishment. In my opinion, that kind of approach just fuels rebellion, and it often drives kids to run away from home just to find a space where they can actually express themselves.
It damages the relationship, and without that bond, you really can't influence their behavior.
Then, someone else ends up being the one who models how they should act.

Charles Murphy6 said:The penalties don't mean a damn thing to me—considering I haven't even been penalized myself, so thanks for that input.🙂
I was being ironic when I mentioned stifling her creativity—honestly, that was never even on the table.😉
And apparently, you’ve been eavesdropping on us too, haven't you?😁
I did exactly what you instructed me to do... no, I am not feeding her empty platitudes, believe me, that hasn't even crossed my mind.
Tears are perfectly acceptable in our household. Being emotional is fine. But this is one of those situations where she thinks shedding tears means I’ll just wrap her in a hug and call it a day without actually talking, and she almost always starts screaming along with the crying whenever we try to have these kinds of discussions. That said, I don't forbid her from crying (though I'm not quite sure how I would even manage that), but I absolutely will not tolerate the screaming.
Thanks again. The whole concept of penalties is totally off. That’s what I thought anyway, but hey, I have this forum, so I ask.😉
She has never once been defiant toward me before. I simply want to teach her how to be a young lady who actually thinks about her actions. It's just like you said—when someone truly hurts her, she becomes incredibly distraught.

So what?
If she starts yelling, I'd just give her a hug (if that's what she says she needs).
Sometimes kids just need to feel held, to know they have support, and to see that we are still there for them even when they mess up.
By the way, I tend to joke when I'm angry, so it occurs to me that maybe she's just mad at herself and that's why she's yelling.
And hey, sometimes you just need to let that anger out.

The conversation doesn't have to happen right away, either.
There's no point in trying to talk while she's completely overwhelmed by her emotions.
I would probably just let her cool off and let her know that we'll discuss the topic once she's feeling calmer.
(Especially if she knows she messed up; she needs some time to process it herself before she's ready to face you.)

Every situation can be looked at from different angles. If we only focus on the fact that the child was being disrespectful—because we want to stop that behavior immediately—we miss a lot of the bigger picture.

If we jump straight into "fixing" the situation (usually by grabbing a punishment from a manual...🙄), we often end up causing more harm than good. Instead of helping, we rob our kids of the chance to actually own their actions. The goal should be to fix what was broken and turn it into a life lesson that sticks, not just for next time, but for the future.

Take your example, for instance. By her own actions, she could have faced consequences before she even had to deal with you.
She might have felt genuinely sad and discouraged.
The consequence could have simply been losing friends—not just one friend, but maybe three others who saw how rude she was being and decided they didn't want a friend who acts that way.
When she starts crying, what she really needs from you is support, especially since she knows she messed up and feels terrible about it.

So, should a parent pile on by also enforcing the loss of friendships? If a parent is strictly looking at the bad behavior, what kind of punishment would even be fair?
Should a parent take away her phone, block her Facebook, or ban her from going to the local park—basically cutting off any way she can talk to her friend to try and make things right?
I personally don't think so.

Charles Murphy6 said:I had quite the "clash" today. She was incredibly rude to this little girl, and while I usually try to stay out of it, my daughter often comes home absolutely distraught because someone hurt her feelings.
What I realized when I sat her down to talk is that her ultimate weapon is the waterworks. Pure, unadulterated manipulation through tears.😁
Then, amidst all the sobbing, she starts loudly justifying herself, practically shouting at me.
It made me realize how much I refuse to raise my voice. I stay calm, avoiding any histrionics, and when she starts escalating, I just calmly ask, "Am I yelling?" And just like that, she’s defeated...😛
My husband was eavesdropping on our conversation today and told me I handled it perfectly.
I’m done falling for the tears. Tears are just a precursor to hysterics, and frankly, neither of us needs that drama. Instead, she just sits there, acting like the center of the universe, while I talk and talk and talk...
The thing is, you never truly know if they’re actually listening to you.🤣
I wonder, what were we like? My parents claim they didn't even notice my teenage rebellion phase. Honestly, I have no idea. I know for a fact I was never disrespectful toward them.
Now, I have a question for you all. When I find myself in a situation where I need to issue some kind of punishment for disobedience, what should I actually take away? It’s not about computer time or her phone. She just stares at the TV...
She loves photography and all sorts of creative crafts. How can I even justify taking those away? I feel completely lost here because I haven't really dealt with outright defiance before, but I can see it coming...
What should I do?
Should I stop taking her to the park? That feels ridiculous. I'm honestly stuck wondering if I should implement light punishments or if I should just keep talking and talking...
For now, I'm sticking to the old-school method of constant lecturing, hoping something finally sticks in that head of hers.

But why would you even punish her?
What are you hoping to achieve with a punishment?
What does "punishment" actually mean to you?
Do you follow certain rules in your own life just to avoid being penalized, or because you genuinely believe that's the right way to act?
What’s the end goal here—do you want her to stop defying you out of fear, or do you want to teach her how to advocate for her needs without being disrespectful?
Are you looking for an obedient child who reacts to rewards and penalties (basically, following someone else's lead), or a self-assured kid who actually thinks about their own actions?

I am all for reacting to bad behavior and taking action when things go wrong.
And if someone was hurt or upset, I definitely think the damage should be repaired.
But I’m not a fan of punishments.
I really feel like it's possible to handle things without setting up formal penalties.

Charles Murphy6 said:I had quite the "clash" today. She was incredibly rude to this little girl, and while I usually try to stay out of it, my daughter often comes home absolutely distraught because someone hurt her feelings.
What I realized when I sat her down to talk is that her ultimate weapon is the waterworks. Pure, unadulterated manipulation through tears.😁
Then, amidst all the sobbing, she starts loudly justifying herself, practically shouting at me.
It made me realize how much I refuse to raise my voice. I stay calm, avoiding any histrionics, and when she starts escalating, I just calmly ask, "Am I yelling?" And just like that, she’s defeated...😛
My husband was eavesdropping on our conversation today and told me I handled it perfectly.
I’m done falling for the tears. Tears are just a precursor to hysterics, and frankly, neither of us needs that drama. Instead, she just sits there, acting like the center of the universe, while I talk and talk and talk...
The thing is, you never truly know if they’re actually listening to you.🤣
I wonder, what were we like? My parents claim they didn't even notice my teenage rebellion phase. Honestly, I have no idea. I know for a fact I was never disrespectful toward them.
Now, I have a question for you all. When I find myself in a situation where I need to issue some kind of punishment for disobedience, what should I actually take away? It’s not about computer time or her phone. She just stares at the TV...
She loves photography and all sorts of creative crafts. How can I even justify taking those away? I feel completely lost here because I haven't really dealt with outright defiance before, but I can see it coming...
What should I do?
Should I stop taking her to the park? That feels ridiculous. I'm honestly stuck wondering if I should implement light punishments or if I should just keep talking and talking...
For now, I'm sticking to the old-school method of constant lecturing, hoping something finally sticks in that head of hers.

Noooooooo!
Absolutely not.
Not at all!

Charles Murphy6 said:I had quite the "clash" today. She was incredibly rude to this little girl, and while I usually try to stay out of it, my daughter often comes home absolutely distraught because someone hurt her feelings.
What I realized when I sat her down to talk is that her ultimate weapon is the waterworks. Pure, unadulterated manipulation through tears.😁
Then, amidst all the sobbing, she starts loudly justifying herself, practically shouting at me.
It made me realize how much I refuse to raise my voice. I stay calm, avoiding any histrionics, and when she starts escalating, I just calmly ask, "Am I yelling?" And just like that, she’s defeated...😛
My husband was eavesdropping on our conversation today and told me I handled it perfectly.
I’m done falling for the tears. Tears are just a precursor to hysterics, and frankly, neither of us needs that drama. Instead, she just sits there, acting like the center of the universe, while I talk and talk and talk...
The thing is, you never truly know if they’re actually listening to you.🤣
I wonder, what were we like? My parents claim they didn't even notice my teenage rebellion phase. Honestly, I have no idea. I know for a fact I was never disrespectful toward them.
Now, I have a question for you all. When I find myself in a situation where I need to issue some kind of punishment for disobedience, what should I actually take away? It’s not about computer time or her phone. She just stares at the TV...
She loves photography and all sorts of creative crafts. How can I even justify taking those away? I feel completely lost here because I haven't really dealt with outright defiance before, but I can see it coming...
What should I do?
Should I stop taking her to the park? That feels ridiculous. I'm honestly stuck wondering if I should implement light punishments or if I should just keep talking and talking...
For now, I'm sticking to the old-school method of constant lecturing, hoping something finally sticks in that head of hers.

From my own experience, and from working with teenagers, punishing them for being defiant usually just makes them more defiant.😳
Only a tiny handful of teens will retreat into themselves and stop acting out, but usually, after a while, they just stop expressing what they want and become, well, apathetic, compliant, and boring....
I'm guessing you don't want either of those outcomes.

In a hypothetical situation where she's being stubborn and rude while asking to go to the park, I think it's incredibly important to tell her that you don't like the way she's speaking to you. Let her know that her tone is hurtful, and that while you heard what she wanted, you aren't going to grant it this time because of how she asked.

If you know she was rude to someone else, do what you just did; talk to her (and give her the space to cry and vent—what's wrong with letting those feelings out?)
Just, please, I hope you aren't using those tired cliches like, "I don't want to be embarrassed by you and your behavior."🙄....instead of just judging, maybe give her a chance to share her side of the story first? It’s worth asking how she was feeling in that moment, what her intentions were, and if she thinks there was a better way to handle things. You could also ask her how she’d feel if someone treated her the exact same way, or if she has any ideas on how to make things right with the little girl...
You might even want to open up about your own feelings—how much it hurts when someone treats you like that, and why it's been so tough for you lately.
At the end of the day, having a conversation is vital, but there’s a huge difference between a real dialogue and just talking at someone.
Usually, kids don't really listen to one-sided monologues.😉

Sam Murphy said:You really need a firmer hand in the house, because whenever my boys start acting up like that, I step right into the middle of the fray and break them up just to remind them who’s actually in charge... I’ve already made it crystal clear to them that once they graduate high school, if they plan on continuing this nonsense, they can find somewhere else to live. My wife struggles to keep them in line too, and honestly, even you seem to have a hard time since all your nagging doesn't seem to stick, and I truly don't know what happened to kids these days, though I suspect it all stems from this overly permissive, liberal attitude we see in our schools and throughout society at large. Back in my day, things were different; if you messed up, a teacher or a parent would give you a sharp slap to set you straight, and everyone knew their place... I suppose I can be a bit too soft sometimes, letting them push the boundaries until they eventually walk all over me, which leads to a massive blowout, followed by a period of good behavior before the whole cycle starts all over again, and sometimes I just sit back and wonder why I even bother going through all this trouble...

And isn't it possible that your little one might be part of the reason for the divorce? I mean, did his behavior actually start when things began to cool down between you and your husband? It’s not entirely clear to me how someone decides to divorce just because a man won't go out much, especially since boys tend to be incredibly sensitive to their parents splitting up, and more often than not, they end up blaming their mother...

There is actually a huge spectrum of parenting styles and ways to relate to kids between being totally permissive and using physical discipline... I’ll never understand the urge to go to such extremes.

Parenting based on fear of getting hit doesn't actually teach a child what is right or wrong, what values matter, or how to behave properly. It just teaches them how to avoid getting caught.

In my opinion, both physical punishment and a completely hands-off, permissive style with zero boundaries are equally ineffective.

Peter Brooks5 said:If this is really what's happening, you have a massive problem.
Look, protect your daughter.
Get him away from the family as soon as possible.
There are doctors and facilities for this.
The older he gets, the bigger the problems will become, and they'll be things you can never fix again. You'll just end up with someone who grows up to physically abuse and harass you.
Listening to all the advice on these forums won't solve anything. You know that better than anyone, because if it worked, you wouldn't be here on the forum looking for help.
Good luck.

For what, exactly?
Do you think doctors wave magic wands (or just hand out pills) and suddenly all the problems vanish? 😕
And do you think people in group homes work like wizards, transforming a child into a cuddly teddy bear who magically returns to their mom at 18 because they have nowhere else to go?😕

Do you honestly believe that if you put him in a facility now, he won't just grow up to be abusive toward her later? 🤔
Or are you hoping for some kind of amnesia where he just forgets who his parents are?😕

As he gets older, these issues will only get harder to manage if they aren't dealt with head-on.
Passing the responsibility onto someone else isn't solving the problem.
It's just avoidance.

hiddenheron58 said:Can you tell me how you set boundaries and rules? How do you stop the kid from hitting her or insulting me when no punishment or plea seems to work? Let me try to illustrate the situation. Here's an example of our fights... He comes home from school without saying hello. I say,🙏 "For heaven's sake," he walks into his room and slams the door (I'm already starting to lose it here, but I'm holding it together). I say, "Dinner's ready, son. Wash your hands and come to the table..." He won't wash his hands and tells me to get lost. I stay quiet and then try to pivot: "How was school?" and I get an answer like... "Why do you care? Just relax." Then the little girl comes in from school, and as soon as she hears the door open, she comments, "Ugh, she's here, what a total eyesore." I warn him, I try to mediate: "Hey, don't do that, honey, let her be, she's tired and hungry" (and I'm already terrified that her irritability and instigating are going to ruin dinner). She sits down and starts chatting with me, she's being bubbly and energetic, we're laughing, and he's just miserable because her energy bothers him, or our relationship bothers him, or I don't even know what... We try to pull him into the conversation, but he's being rude and pushing us away. Then he either hits her under the table or calls her a "hideous brat." (He acts like he's 10 instead of 15; honestly, it doesn't seem like a normal reaction for those years.) She tells him, "Fine, you're the ugly one!" or "Stop telling me to shut up!" and then he just snaps, slaps her, and starts hurling even worse insults... the poor thing, she's a wreck. I start trying to calm them down, and then he turns on me and says...😳I knew you’d take the pet's side. I try to explain that they were actually the one who started it, but instead, I just end up being called trash and worse. It always spirals into insults and screaming... Can you help me make sense of this? I need advice on how to handle the situation or just how to stay calm, because this kind of thing happens to me every few hours—and over the weekend, it's even more frequent. thanks

It's hard to give advice without hearing his side of the story, too.
This is just your perspective; I don't know what his reality is.
I don't feel like it would be fair to give specific instructions without more info.

The only thing I can tell you based on what I've read is that you can try telling him exactly how his behavior makes you feel and why you need it to stop.
Also, in sibling fights, try not to get caught up in who started it. I often feel like in those kinds of clashes, it really doesn't matter. As they say, "it's wiser to let it go..."
One thing you might not realize, but it seems to me like it might be happening, is that your daughter might be provoking him a little...
If someone comes home from school feeling frustrated and wound up, I definitely wouldn't say, "Hey kid, you're ugly," especially if I knew that would hurt his feelings or trigger him.
And then, he's technically right when he says you're taking her side...