Do a therapist's personal beliefs actually matter?
in Psychology ·
redharbor9, I think you’re having a hard time following because you’re way too focused on just being defensive... it feels like you see yourself in all of this, so your only goal is to play down how much responsibility a psychotherapist actually carries...
....because when I point out that certain mistakes are dangerous... and I’m laying them out specifically... and saying they aren't comparable to, say, a bad haircut at a local salon... you’re the one claiming everyone makes mistakes and that those mistakes are just a matter of perspective...(which basically implies that what I see as a massive blunder could actually be considered a success).... I mean... if a child dies or a husband beats his wife, is that supposed to be a "success" in therapy?
....you’re constantly trivializing these errors... why do you need to do that?
...where does this urge come from—to mask these mistakes not just with relativism, but by labeling them successes? Okay... sure, there are successes, but only if those two therapists are actually sadists or psychopaths.
tell me, what are your actual ideas? I have an idea that things need to change... and I have ideas on how... so why don't you say something? Don't just keep repeating the same thing... that everything in psychotherapy is fine, it's just that society isn't perfect.
I’ve already put forward my views and suggestions regarding what needs to change...
....first off, psychotherapists shouldn't be people who are unstable, superficial, racist, narcissists, psychopaths, or anyone with a history of violent behavior, egocentrism, or sadism.
..a client needs to know, and has every right to know, exactly who they are entrusting themselves to in therapy.
....and honestly, supervision should probably be some kind of constant oversight, rather than just something a therapist does whenever they feel like it.
...there really ought to be some kind of federal law regulating what a psychotherapist can, should, and must do versus what they cannot or must not do... and when rules are broken, there should be actual consequences.
.....using God, hell, or the devil to scare children (or anyone, really) is, to me, pure mental abuse. I know this from experience... and that should be sanctioned, and in a therapeutic setting, it should be illegal.
....I believe a psychotherapist is responsible for the advice and guidance they give their clients... not necessarily how the client carries it out, unless the outcome was already predictable and obvious.
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....Q&A session...
"What even is a mistake? Who gets to decide what counts as one? What seems like a mistake to you might actually be a solution for someone else, right?"
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....in my view, it's a mistake if a therapist convinces a woman—who moved away from her husband specifically to escape physical and emotional abuse—that she should go back and try to live with him again under some new set of rules dictated by the therapist.
...okay... maybe it doesn't look like a mistake to you... but it does to me... and if so, what exactly is that supposed to be a "solution" for?
what problem was solved here?
....
"How can he possibly know she'll end up in the ER? How can any therapist know the exact consequence of any intervention they make? Have you ever heard of paradoxical intention as a method in psychotherapy? How familiar are you with systemic approaches, especially those that emphasize keeping families together and finding ways to make the family unit functional again? How can you be sure his actions weren't part of a specific technique or an idea they developed together?"
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....well, I don't know... maybe I have some sort of intuition... but somehow, my gut tells me that if he beat and mistreated her before... and not just her... then there's a very high probability he’s going to beat and mistreat her again. Maybe that sounds illogical to you, but I guess I'm from a different planet where things usually work that way.
It feels to me like that therapy was just completely paradoxical... in every sense of the word. Even when you look at it through the lens of preserving a family—kind of like those old-school American traditions where people stick together "until death do us part." It’s like they just wait for the weaker partner to pass away so they can claim there was never actually a breakup. The family unit and the public image stay perfectly intact. As for that young woman's perspective, I don't really want to get into an argument about her motives because she seemed terrified from the very start. If her suggestion had been something truly toxic, she would have been even more frightened.
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"You're looking at this example solely through the lens of your own ideas about divorce and abandoning husbands, and you aren't allowing for any possible explanations—of which there are plenty—because you think you're right and that therapist isn't. On what basis are you gathering this information? Were you actually present during the sessions, or is she just retelling you what happened?"
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...it turns out the therapist was actually right. He hit her, and she won't go back to him for anything, not even if her life depended on it, because she barely made it out alive. I wasn't in the room during the therapy sessions, so I only know what happened based on what she told me... but I'm not so naive that I can't tell what the general truth is. Besides, a lawsuit is coming because she has evidence that the therapist was essentially pushing her toward that edge.
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"What if a school psychologist tries to scare a suicidal child with God and Hell? If the kid was raised in a devout Christian household, they might actually get scared enough to stop. Or, what if the psychologist *doesn't* use that fear, and the child ends up killing themselves because their faith was the only thing keeping them tethered? What then? Does that scenario ever cross your mind?"
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...no, it doesn't occur to me to try and scare anyone... especially not a child who is already struggling with suicidal thoughts. Obviously, if they were raised in a religious way but their pain or illness is greater than that fear, the fact that they're talking to a school authority figure tells you everything. They are seeking support, protection, and help... not a scare tactic. In the end, she took her own life, and she did it in a way that looks like an accident.
She basically chose a path where she wouldn't be judged for sinning, and her family wouldn't have to deal with the fallout of her decision.
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No, it doesn't occur to you because you're looking at it through a single, narrow viewpoint just to prove your point. Is there some magical way a therapist can know everything about a client instantly, effectively shutting down any chance for actual exploration during therapy?"
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...if you're a psychotherapist... if you have even a shred of knowledge about children or human nature... you'll know that it was a plea for help, not a call to battle against the child or an attempt to dominate them.
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From what I can see based on other people's experiences with psychotherapy on these forums, patients and therapists work together to explore the self. The questions asked and the directions taken are evaluated to see if they're productive, and that's why the investigation continues. How exactly does one "investigate further" when the client ends up beaten or dead? Or are these people just collateral damage in massive research studies used by someone to build a career?
And since you brought up suicide, how much do you actually know about the complexities of suicide within psychotherapy? Pick up a textbook on ethical issues in counseling, flip to the section on suicide, and then come back and try to make these kinds of conclusions. Once you see the kind of impossible pressure that puts on therapists..."
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...Look, I’ve said this before: I’m not a psychologist, a psychotherapist, or a psychiatrist. I don't have all the textbook theories down pat. My understanding comes strictly from being in the trenches. I know firsthand how devastating it is for therapists when a client takes their own life... (I've seen a close friend struggle through the absolute wreckage of losing a client that way). I'm not saying a therapist is automatically to blame whenever something like this happens... but in this specific case—with a sixteen-year-old girl—there's clearly some responsibility there.
....On one hand, you’re arguing that our society and government are still a bit of a mess and unorganized. But then, on the other hand, you're claiming that nothing in psychotherapy needs to change—that there aren't any mistakes to be made, and that everything happens for a reason. It feels a little contradictory to me... if society is failing to provide a solid foundation, how can everything in therapy be perfectly fine and part of some grand design? It just doesn't quite add up to me.
....because when I point out that certain mistakes are dangerous... and I’m laying them out specifically... and saying they aren't comparable to, say, a bad haircut at a local salon... you’re the one claiming everyone makes mistakes and that those mistakes are just a matter of perspective...(which basically implies that what I see as a massive blunder could actually be considered a success).... I mean... if a child dies or a husband beats his wife, is that supposed to be a "success" in therapy?
....you’re constantly trivializing these errors... why do you need to do that?
...where does this urge come from—to mask these mistakes not just with relativism, but by labeling them successes? Okay... sure, there are successes, but only if those two therapists are actually sadists or psychopaths.
tell me, what are your actual ideas? I have an idea that things need to change... and I have ideas on how... so why don't you say something? Don't just keep repeating the same thing... that everything in psychotherapy is fine, it's just that society isn't perfect.
I’ve already put forward my views and suggestions regarding what needs to change...
....first off, psychotherapists shouldn't be people who are unstable, superficial, racist, narcissists, psychopaths, or anyone with a history of violent behavior, egocentrism, or sadism.
..a client needs to know, and has every right to know, exactly who they are entrusting themselves to in therapy.
....and honestly, supervision should probably be some kind of constant oversight, rather than just something a therapist does whenever they feel like it.
...there really ought to be some kind of federal law regulating what a psychotherapist can, should, and must do versus what they cannot or must not do... and when rules are broken, there should be actual consequences.
.....using God, hell, or the devil to scare children (or anyone, really) is, to me, pure mental abuse. I know this from experience... and that should be sanctioned, and in a therapeutic setting, it should be illegal.
....I believe a psychotherapist is responsible for the advice and guidance they give their clients... not necessarily how the client carries it out, unless the outcome was already predictable and obvious.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................
....Q&A session...
"What even is a mistake? Who gets to decide what counts as one? What seems like a mistake to you might actually be a solution for someone else, right?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....in my view, it's a mistake if a therapist convinces a woman—who moved away from her husband specifically to escape physical and emotional abuse—that she should go back and try to live with him again under some new set of rules dictated by the therapist.
...okay... maybe it doesn't look like a mistake to you... but it does to me... and if so, what exactly is that supposed to be a "solution" for?
what problem was solved here?
....
"How can he possibly know she'll end up in the ER? How can any therapist know the exact consequence of any intervention they make? Have you ever heard of paradoxical intention as a method in psychotherapy? How familiar are you with systemic approaches, especially those that emphasize keeping families together and finding ways to make the family unit functional again? How can you be sure his actions weren't part of a specific technique or an idea they developed together?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....well, I don't know... maybe I have some sort of intuition... but somehow, my gut tells me that if he beat and mistreated her before... and not just her... then there's a very high probability he’s going to beat and mistreat her again. Maybe that sounds illogical to you, but I guess I'm from a different planet where things usually work that way.
It feels to me like that therapy was just completely paradoxical... in every sense of the word. Even when you look at it through the lens of preserving a family—kind of like those old-school American traditions where people stick together "until death do us part." It’s like they just wait for the weaker partner to pass away so they can claim there was never actually a breakup. The family unit and the public image stay perfectly intact. As for that young woman's perspective, I don't really want to get into an argument about her motives because she seemed terrified from the very start. If her suggestion had been something truly toxic, she would have been even more frightened.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You're looking at this example solely through the lens of your own ideas about divorce and abandoning husbands, and you aren't allowing for any possible explanations—of which there are plenty—because you think you're right and that therapist isn't. On what basis are you gathering this information? Were you actually present during the sessions, or is she just retelling you what happened?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...it turns out the therapist was actually right. He hit her, and she won't go back to him for anything, not even if her life depended on it, because she barely made it out alive. I wasn't in the room during the therapy sessions, so I only know what happened based on what she told me... but I'm not so naive that I can't tell what the general truth is. Besides, a lawsuit is coming because she has evidence that the therapist was essentially pushing her toward that edge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What if a school psychologist tries to scare a suicidal child with God and Hell? If the kid was raised in a devout Christian household, they might actually get scared enough to stop. Or, what if the psychologist *doesn't* use that fear, and the child ends up killing themselves because their faith was the only thing keeping them tethered? What then? Does that scenario ever cross your mind?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...no, it doesn't occur to me to try and scare anyone... especially not a child who is already struggling with suicidal thoughts. Obviously, if they were raised in a religious way but their pain or illness is greater than that fear, the fact that they're talking to a school authority figure tells you everything. They are seeking support, protection, and help... not a scare tactic. In the end, she took her own life, and she did it in a way that looks like an accident.
She basically chose a path where she wouldn't be judged for sinning, and her family wouldn't have to deal with the fallout of her decision.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, it doesn't occur to you because you're looking at it through a single, narrow viewpoint just to prove your point. Is there some magical way a therapist can know everything about a client instantly, effectively shutting down any chance for actual exploration during therapy?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...if you're a psychotherapist... if you have even a shred of knowledge about children or human nature... you'll know that it was a plea for help, not a call to battle against the child or an attempt to dominate them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what I can see based on other people's experiences with psychotherapy on these forums, patients and therapists work together to explore the self. The questions asked and the directions taken are evaluated to see if they're productive, and that's why the investigation continues. How exactly does one "investigate further" when the client ends up beaten or dead? Or are these people just collateral damage in massive research studies used by someone to build a career?
And since you brought up suicide, how much do you actually know about the complexities of suicide within psychotherapy? Pick up a textbook on ethical issues in counseling, flip to the section on suicide, and then come back and try to make these kinds of conclusions. Once you see the kind of impossible pressure that puts on therapists..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Look, I’ve said this before: I’m not a psychologist, a psychotherapist, or a psychiatrist. I don't have all the textbook theories down pat. My understanding comes strictly from being in the trenches. I know firsthand how devastating it is for therapists when a client takes their own life... (I've seen a close friend struggle through the absolute wreckage of losing a client that way). I'm not saying a therapist is automatically to blame whenever something like this happens... but in this specific case—with a sixteen-year-old girl—there's clearly some responsibility there.
....On one hand, you’re arguing that our society and government are still a bit of a mess and unorganized. But then, on the other hand, you're claiming that nothing in psychotherapy needs to change—that there aren't any mistakes to be made, and that everything happens for a reason. It feels a little contradictory to me... if society is failing to provide a solid foundation, how can everything in therapy be perfectly fine and part of some grand design? It just doesn't quite add up to me.