Posts by Sandra Morgan2

wearyrider16 said:All this attacking is just what happens when people don't know any better! We don't even know each other, yet you're jumping to these conclusions!!! It really shows where your spirituality is at and how much prejudice you have—it's typical for people who claim to only follow their hearts. Honestly, in a civilized society, we'd call this being rude and uncultured. But I guess that's just become the norm these days, unfortunately. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-T61s1_5RM enjoy.

I'm sorry, wearyrider16... I really am. It isn't my place to judge your spiritual path, or anyone else's for that matter.
Your journey is strictly between you and God—nobody else has any right to step in.
I messed up, and I'm sorry. ....🙂

wearyrider16 said:Hey there, Doc. Glad I managed to shake you up a little, though it looks like it wasn't enough. Still, you're being pretty observant and kind toward me, which is a rare thing to see these days. So, sending you some 🙂 again. I know it's hard to let go sometimes—to stop relying on your own pride, ego, or that "earthly wisdom." It's just human nature! I used to be stuck in that exact same trap, thinking my own conclusions and achievements were everything. Meanwhile, inside, I felt totally empty and hollow. Just an amateur in a room full of experts. But hey, let time do its thing. It's just human nature to attack what we don't understand or what scares us. 🙂 ... those who know, know. Adios! 😉

wearyrider16, you didn't even touch me. I was only active on this thread because I was debating with Paul Jones7.

Still, you’re observant and kind toward me, which is such a rarity these days. So, sending some love back your way. 🙂 I know how hard it is to let go—to surrender your pride, your ego, and that superficial wisdom. It’s just human nature! I get it. Until yesterday, I was a prisoner of my own conclusions and achievements too.

But right now, honey, you're a prisoner of the bible and its prophecies.

And in my heart and soul? I am so, so empty, sad, and incomplete. A total ignoramus in a world of educated people!!!

And so you are sad, empty, and incomplete. You still don't get it. Stop lying to yourself.

Well, fine, let time take its course!!! ... It's just human nature to attack what we don't understand, everything we're afraid of!!! 🙂 ... whoever has the sense to see it, will see it!!!! Adios! 😉

Look, sweetie, you've got issues with the world and with yourself. You're sensitive, gentle, and wounded, but there is love and softness inside you. Ditch the bible, or at least ditch those Jehovah's Witnesses, and follow your heart. Otherwise, you're going to lose it. There—that's my "diagnosis, prognosis, and cure" from the doctor. 🙂

Adios to you, too.... 🙂

@Paul Jones7

I honestly don't have an answer to whether someone with a slightly expanded consciousness possesses any semblance of free will. Personally? I don't think so. Just as I believe my entire will is my own—that it's driven by my source, that *I am* the source—while the ego, which I call Sandra Morgan2, just takes all the credit for "doership."

It’s the exact same thing that pumps my blood, beats my heart, filters water through my kidneys, and allows me to see, hear, move my hands, digest food, grant me memory and forgetfulness, analyzes via intellect, whispers through intuition, loves through the heart, and maintains billions of bodily functions simultaneously without any input from me. That same force drives my impulses of will. It is free within me; it isn't Sandra Morgan2.

You see it differently, and that’s totally fine! Anyone who is truly, deeply interested in these questions—not just as intellectual navel-gazing—needs to investigate the truth for themselves to the very end...

When I say "investigate," I don't mean reading texts or studying what others have to say; that’s just step one. In this context, investigation means witnessing, observing, and maintaining a neutral, quiet observation of everything happening within the space of consciousness. My insight is that we aren't the content of consciousness, but rather the "space" itself... All my conclusions stem from that. You might find something else entirely through your own investigation... 🙂

So, here I am looking at myself: no matter how hard I try with my "free will" to end this discussion, I just can't seem to do it. I'll have to put in some extra effort 😳 and just stop... 🙂

Actually, I think I just did it... so, bye! See you in another thread... 🙂

@wearyrider16, if I didn't feel like I was reading someone so fragile—someone covered in fears and old wounds—I might say something much sharper. Honestly, seeing groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses makes me want to shake things up a bit. Despite all those smiles and the "sending love and kisses" routine (which feels like a performance where you play the good little soul waiting to be saved), maybe a little anger or some cursing would be more honest. But I won't provoke you; I don't want to jeopardize your spot in that perfect world where the lamb and the lion graze together on the same ice floe...

I get it. Because of your sensitive nature, you feel this deep need to cling to the skirts of some supreme heavenly authority. You think you need to be embraced by Him along with those 144,000 meek souls while the world falls apart, and you feel compelled to spread the Good News just to earn your place. But you're on the wrong forum. This space is for the free spirits—the independent travelers, the skeptics, the outcasts from organized Religion who rely solely on their own feet, their own heads, and their own hearts. Go to the Religion subforum; that's where the rest of your flock hangs out... 🙂

Paul Jones7 said:That would be one way to look at it—an explanation that somehow lets free will exist while still maintaining that the future is already set in stone and closed off. I guess it’s a bit of a paradox, isn't it? But maybe there's a way to bridge that gap... though I'm probably overthinking it.

But then again—if the future is already just sitting there waiting for us and we’re simply too blind to see it—that doesn't really account for why none of those people who claim to "see" the future ever get it exactly right. Not even close. I mean, it might make more sense if we looked at it through a causal model of the present. Think of it like this: right now, the future is essentially a movie that’s already been filmed—it has a specific script, a certain flow. But there’s this underlying dynamic, maybe a bit of built-in indeterminacy, that can actually shift the entire causal structure of what's to come. And honestly, I think that's where free will fits in—as that one variable capable of throwing a wrench in the works. So, if everything stays static, sure, we know exactly how the story ends. But if things change... well, that's where it gets interesting.

Besides, I don't think humans even have to be the sole architects of what comes next. I mean, if there’s some kind of food chain operating above us—something much larger than any one individual—then there are probably forces out there trying to map out our future with total precision. It's almost like we've been assigned a specific role, much like how we decide the fate of animals here on Earth. But then again, maybe it isn't all bad... humanity might just have its own set of allies working behind the scenes, people fighting to make sure we actually get to live out the rights God intended for us.

I think the core difference between our perspectives lies in what you just said in that last bit—it’s about how we view enlightenment. See, I don't really see it as this sudden, massive leap... like, poof, you weren't enlightened a second ago and now suddenly you are. That feels a bit off to me. I tend to view it more as a long, winding process—a journey, if you will. Sure, maybe there is one final, massive jump at the very end when everything finally clicks into place, but the actual results start showing up way before that. They begin to build and grow as you steadily move toward that ultimate state. If my take on this is actually right—and I guess it might be—then it means people like you, or even me, can actually become... well, slightly enlightened along the way. Which, I suppose, gives us all a little bit of free will to work with.

It seems to me like most people don't have any of that at all—though I suppose there are a few folks out there who are starting to open up just a little bit. They aren't quite total automatons; they actually seem to have a tiny spark of their true selves buried somewhere in their personality, if you catch my drift.

I wouldn't call that free will. It’s an illusion. While you think you're making a choice, you don't actually have any options—you're just following the one single path that already exists in the future.

But look, if the future is just sitting there right in front of us and we're simply blind to it, that still doesn't explain one thing: why hasn't a single person who claims to see the future ever been 100% spot on?

Maybe those pundits on the news channels aren't actually seeing what's coming. Those who truly see the future might realize that the course is already set—unalterable—so they just stay quiet. Maybe... just maybe. Honestly? It’s better to just say I don't know.

There’s definitely a certain dynamic at play here.There’s this inherent slice of uncertainty baked into the future—a variable that can actually shift the entire causal model of what's to come. To me, that’s exactly where free will steps in. It’s the catalyst for change. If everything stays exactly on its current trajectory, then yeah, we already know how the story ends. But if we don't...? That's where things get interesting.

What kind of dynamics are we talking about? Is it this one right here?

Look, humans aren't necessarily the sole architects of what's coming next. If there’s a food chain positioned above us, then there are certainly forces out there working to dictate our destiny—just like we decide the fate of animals on this planet. But on the flip side, humanity isn't alone. We have our own allies fighting to ensure we actually fulfill the rights God gave us.

Maybe so, maybe not... Once again, neither you nor I have any way of knowing if that's actually the case.

Here’s where we differ: what you just said in that last point. I don’t view enlightenment as some sudden, overnight leap—as if you weren't enlightened at all, and then *poof*, suddenly you are. No. It’s a process. A journey. Sure, there might be one final breakthrough at the very end when everything finally clicks open, but the results start manifesting long before that jump happens. They grow steadily as a person moves toward that ultimate state. If my perspective holds water, it means people like you or me can actually become—just a little bit—enlightened. And that implies we possess a tiny bit of free will, too.

It seems like most people have absolutely nothing of this. However, I’m starting to see a few individuals beginning to open up—people who aren't just mindless automatons, but actually possess a tiny spark of their true selves within their personalities.

Following up on what I told you—that personality itself isn't even a real thing—I’m just reiterating: if something doesn't exist, it can't possibly have free will or any kind of agency.

Yet, we still sense this capacity for will—not even calling it an illusion of free will, but a genuine force we can cultivate, strengthen, or simply ignore. We feel that power of choice deep down. Could it be that our will is fundamentally divine in origin, just like the love we carry within us? If so, wouldn't it be right to call it "our" will, even if it isn't strictly tied to our individual personality?

Beyond that, we see certain individuals who possess an incredible willpower—people who act like locomotives, pulling everyone else along behind them and achieving their goals with almost supernatural precision. Are these people necessarily more spiritually advanced, or is it just good karma at work? Do you find that spiritually evolved people tend to have this kind of intense will? And if they do, how does that strength actually manifest itself?

@Paul Jones7,

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." - Einstein

If everything is actually unfolding simultaneously, then maybe everything is predetermined—the future is already right here, we just can't see it yet.

Regarding that quote, I've come across texts with the exact same sentiment—that those grounded in pure consciousness, truly enlightened people, possess free will. Since pure consciousness and God are synonymous, that brings us back to divine will... It’s possible that’s the very factor you're talking about that can change the future, but if it has already unfolded because everything happens at once, then even that isn't possible. Or maybe it is? ... I don't know...

They say the Sankalpa (will) of an enlightened being is identical to God's... An enlightened person's Sankalpa is instantaneous; whatever they direct their will toward manifests immediately.

So there is hope 🙂 .... But never for an ordinary human acting from the ego. The ego has to vanish first—or rather, the identification with it, that whole mechanism of clinging to a false self, must disappear. Only pure consciousness should remain within the body... Or so they say... 🙂

I doubt there are any gradations where a slightly more awakened consciousness automatically translates to a little bit of free will...

Paul Jones7 said:Nobody ever sat me down to teach me about meaning, nor did I find some manual for it—I just noticed it. It’s everywhere. I don't really see any reason to doubt that, unless someone actually gives me a reason to start questioning things. In the meantime, I guess I'll just choose faith over doubt, while keeping my eyes peeled for whatever experiences come my way next.

I don't know, Sandra Morgan2, I'm just not convinced. This whole thing you're saying feels a bit archaic—no matter how much poetic flair you wrap it in, it sounds like you've latched onto some Buddhist perspective a little too tightly... what I'm reading from you feels more like a lecture. And honestly, there’s probably no point in dragging this conversation further because we are clearly looking at this from completely different angles. If you want to believe that your insight has handed you the ultimate truth and that you just *know*... well, go ahead and keep believing. It's your free will. Or your pattern. Whatever. I'm not angry, I just don't buy it, and that's that.

Listen, life is nothing but a dream... but what a dream!!!!!!!!! What a strange, incredible, fantastic dream...

One day, it will all click, and you'll realize it's exactly what it is—PERFECT.

So full of this very life, overflowing with pure love, so much that you won't even be able to breathe. You'll finally know—that life itself is its own meaning, its own goal, and its own purpose. !!!!

🙂

Paul Jones7 said:There is a massive difference between saying people barely possess free will as they currently are, and claiming that free will doesn't exist at all or that a human can't express even a shred of it. Do you think Gurdjieff considered himself to be a machine without free will?

Free will exists, it's just not present in everyone. And even in those who do have it, there's very little of it—which is the real joke. But to say it doesn't exist at all is a huge misconception. This life wouldn't make any sense if the personality couldn't reach reality, its own essence, its true will. The whole game would be pointless—all this maya and samsara. But there is a purpose here. These patterns aren't just loops; tucked inside them is the potential for truth. Call it whatever you want.

I get the picture of the personality and what it is compared to the true existence of the soul. But like I wrote before, if the personality had no potential to reach reality, this kind of life wouldn't even exist. Everything that exists has a purpose, including this mode of existence. And no one in this world could tell me otherwise, because through all my own experience, I'm convinced of the meaningfulness of this life. This life isn't (just) a dream; it's a riddle waiting to be solved. It's a riddle specifically for the personality to solve, because it's the personality's turn to play.

I gave you a fair warning to stop this conversation, because if we dive into the whole existence vs. non-existence of free will, we’re just going to end up in nonsense territory. That's enough to drive the ego absolutely insane!

Even with all your skepticism, you haven't doubted the meaning yet...
In fact, you'll probably turn your head away from that doubt entirely.
Hell, you might even get angry at Sandra Morgan2!

Paul Jones7 said:Do I really need to go hunting for quotes from people considered enlightened—people who actually believe in free will—just to prove my point?

As far as I know, Gurdjieff was a firm believer in free will himself.

So, what’s the rebuttal there? That your chosen icons aren't enlightened, but mine are? I guess we could go down that road if you want.

I pointed out a contradiction in what was being said, and you actually agreed that the contradiction exists. So, can you explain it?

Look, I'm not enlightened—we both know that. But I don't just doubt myself; I doubt everyone else, too. After all, how much can you really know about me? I'm certainly not claiming to hold the ultimate truth... and I doubt everyone else even more than I doubt myself.😉

By the way, you might want to notice how sensitive you're getting about this topic—it kind of suggests that you're doubting, too.

Look for quotes or don't—it's all predestined anyway...

As far as I know, Gurdjieff definitely believed in free will.

Nope... Gurdjieff believed (though maybe he didn't realize it) that almost everyone is just a mechanical repetition of patterns. They aren't free at all; they have no will and are essentially machines. He even believed most people lack a soul. He thought only certain individuals possess a soul, but only as a tiny seed. If they don't cultivate it, they remain mere machines. Beyond that, he said this:

Free will is The function of The master within US (Master in US is pure consciousness). Our ‘will’ is simply the supremacy of one desire over another.

In other words, human will is just the shifting of desires, and we don't choose those desires—we are conditioned by them. In this context, "will" is used substantively.

So what are you going to say to that? That your people aren't enlightened, but mine are?

I've said what I had to say regarding Gurdjieff. Bring up something else and I'll respond to that, or I won't respond at all. Sandra Morgan2 is spontaneous.

I pointed out a contradiction in his teaching, and you agreed there was one. Can you explain it?

Paul Jones7 said:hm

Now, me? I'm pretty sure—even though, as you know, I'm not much of a reader and haven't picked up many spiritual books—that there are plenty of enlightened people who claim the exact opposite: that free will exists. Does that strike you as odd? I mean, is an enlightened person someone who supposedly knows everything?

I’d say that’s just impossible. Nobody on this planet knows everything, and they never will, mostly because it just isn't compatible with this level of existence. And if they don't know everything, then there's another possibility, which I think is actually quite common: that even the concepts held by enlightened beings simply aren't entirely accurate sometimes.

And occasionally, as in the case of the man you were quoting, I’d personally say he knew more than he let on. He might have intentionally held back just to guide his students in the direction he wanted them to go—thinking that revealing everything he knew would be way too confusing and would just scatter their focus everywhere.

From that contradiction, I get the sense that he’s silently admitting free will exists, but he just didn't want to say it outright. His entire school of thought is built on non-attachment, transparency, and accepting life exactly as it is. He recognizes that this is the path toward the exit and enlightenment.

But that brings up the next question, which is the same one you'd ask about Christianity or any other tradition: okay, so that's one school of thought; but is it the *only* one? Is it the only way, the only path to enlightenment?

I honestly doubt it. Even though I don't see much, I still see a world full of different possibilities all around me.

Fair enough. So, do you have a recipe for achieving that kind of insight? Have you ever had an insight like that regarding this topic?

It always seems to me that it's just as easy to have the illusion of insight. The personality just steps in in such a way that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell what was a genuine insight and what was just... well, everything else.

He knows who he is. That's more than enough.

I’d say that’s just impossible. No one on this planet knows everything—and honestly, nobody ever will. It simply isn't compatible with our current level of existence. And if we don't have all the answers, there's another possibility that I think is actually quite common: even the concepts held by the enlightened aren't always entirely accurate.

Pro-enlightenment... hmm.

"Be a light unto yourself. Be your own confidence. Hold to the truth within, as to the only truth." Buddha Quote

From one contradiction, I can conclude that he’s silently admitting free will exists. He just isn't ready to say it out loud, because the school he represents is built on non-resistance, transparency, and simply accepting life exactly as it is. To him, acknowledging that is the only way to reach the exit—to find true enlightenment.

It’s not quite like that. He clearly states that it doesn't exist; if he actually believed or knew the opposite were true, he'd be a liar. Beyond that, he was a free agent—he didn't belong to any specific school of thought. He just worked a regular job, selling tobacco at a corner bodega.

That just brings up the next big question, doesn't it? It’s the same dilemma you run into with Christianity or any other path: okay, so this is a school of thought; but is it the *only* school? Is it the one and only way, the solitary path to enlightenment?

I honestly have my doubts. Even if I can't see everything laid out clearly, I still see nothing but endless possibilities all around me.

Exactly. You're spot on... It’s even more diverse than that. Everyone has their own unique path to follow.

Excellent. Do you have a recipe for achieving insight? And have you personally experienced such an insight regarding this topic?

It always seems to me that having an illusion of insight is just as easy as having actual insight. Personality gets involved in such a way that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell exactly what was a true realization and what was just everything else playing tricks on you.

You bet! 🙂 Let me tell you—I hadn't even finished my second sentence before you jumped in to suggest my insight might just be an illusion! 🙂

You’re doubting, you’re doubting, Paul Jones7...
👍
That's a fantastic starting point,
it'll take you way further than just faith alone
🙂

Paul Jones7 said:Why on earth do you think this guy is right about everything he says?

Authority?

I mean, so what if he said it? 😂

If free will doesn't actually exist, then there isn't really anything to accept or reject regarding this whole "movie of life" thing—because even that would have to be part of determinism, leaving absolutely zero room for choice. The way this has been translated, at least, seems to lead us straight into a contradiction.

🙂 Yes, you're right.... the contradiction is real.... and yes, you're spot on—it doesn't matter what some enlightened N. Maharaj says. You aren't obligated to believe he's enlightened or that he's even correct...

I could lay out a whole series of arguments right now proving that free will doesn't exist, and I wouldn't bet against you finding even more arguments to prove it does..... but no matter how much we talk, we won't find the truth through debate. It reveals itself clearly in an entirely different dimension—one far above the mind.

All it takes is one single leap beyond the mind and the ego's disappearance to gain not just an answer, but a crystal-clear insight into whether free will exists or not. Until that happens, both the one claiming it doesn't exist and the one claiming it does are just guessing.

So, let's not dwell on this topic any further.... 🙂

@ Paul Jones7
.
Nisargadatta Maharaj: Destiny is usually thought of as something that is going to happen in the future. Destiny is all here-now. The script has already been written. am playing all the characters in the movie; and I am witnessing the movie which is already done.

Our lives play out like a film on loop. There’s just one catch: we get to choose whether to embrace the screening or fight it. Simple, right? When the ego—blinded by ignorance—tries to reject the plot, that’s where the suffering starts. Accept the movie, and you find enlightenment.

Paul Jones7 said:if life is all predetermined, then consciousness doesn't really make sense—it wouldn't even exist; we'd just be looking at complex programming in the brains of living things creating this illusion of awareness, making us nothing more than robots. in that scenario, the entire future has already happened, since it's just as determined as the past, and our individual experience doesn't really matter to the outcome at all.

then again, there are plenty of indicators—including claims from people who claim to see into the future—suggesting that things aren't set in stone, but rather consist of possibilities that eventually collapse into one inevitable event.

And that kind of indeterminism is only possible if free will exists, even if it's only in some tiny, microscopic way.

With how we understand the world today, I suppose knowing for certain that life is predetermined would probably just push me to totally give up, because, well, it wouldn't matter anyway. If there's only one possible outcome, why bother struggling? It's going to happen regardless. Even the realization that everything is deterministic would likely just be another part of that same determinism. Everything would just be... inevitable.

Exactly! Like I said, once you realize free will doesn't exist, it can drive you crazy. A person might just give up on everything and stop trying, falling into a trap of nihilism and becoming totally passive. Or, they might just do whatever they feel like, because if there's no free will, there's no personal responsibility for your actions.

Then God and the devil become one and the same, which makes questioning His goodness and love a real issue.

To keep Sandra Morgan2 from cracking under the pressure, she smoothed it out like this:

Everything is God = which means I am God too
Everything is God's will = so my will is God's will

Paul Jones7 said:hm, yeah... I've been chewing on this idea of what free will might actually look like before things get too complicated, and I think I've landed somewhere:

if your response to premises 1 and 2—which basically set the stage—is always 3, then there's just no room for free will to even exist as a concept, let alone as an action

but if you take those same premises, 1 and 2, and your answer is 3... yet sometimes it's 4... or maybe even 5... well, that’s where free will lives, I guess. It's that break in the cause-and-effect chain where 1 and 2 would normally lead straight to 3 based on those patterns we have running through our heads

still, free will has to exist—because if it doesn't, then consciousness itself isn't really there, and life wouldn't feel real; it would just be a movie that was already filmed long ago

then there's the other question, I suppose... how much free will do we actually have... or if we even have any at all

It looks like you think you’re picking between 4 or 5 options, but it’s actually always just 3. You might feel like you had a choice, but you really just picked what was inevitable—because 1 and 2 always lead straight to 3.

Free will simply has to exist. Because if it doesn't, then consciousness itself isn't real—and if consciousness isn't real, then life isn't actually happening. It would just be a movie that was finished long ago.

It isn't meant to be recorded for you.

The whole question of whether we actually have free will or not... honestly, it’s enough to drive a person insane.

Paul Jones7 said:I mean, that last part is definitely true—it hits home—but the idea itself carries some weight too. Fixing yourself is where everything starts, and that’s the primary thing... though I wouldn't say it's the *only* thing we can do, not by a long shot.

Look, we've got two hands, two legs, one brain, and the free will to decide what to do with them. If we weren't meant to act on our own accord, I guess free will wouldn't have been given to us in the first place.

From the book I am that, Nisargadatta swami

Q: Surely, I am not the master of what happens. Its slave rather.

M: Be neither master, nor slave. Stand aloof.

Q: Does it imply avoidance of action?

M: You cannot avoid action. It happens, like everything else.

Q: My actions, surely, I can control.

M: Try. You will soon see that you do what you must.

Q: I can act according to my free will.

M: You know your will only after you have acted.

Q: I remember my desires, the choices made, the decisions taken and act accordingly.

M: Then your memory decides, not you.

Q: Where do I come in?

M: You make it possible by giving it attention.

Q: Is there no such thing as free will? Am I not free to desire?

M: Oh no. You are compelled to desire. In Hinduism the very idea of free will is non-existent, so there is no word for it. Will is commitment, fixation, bondage.

Q: I am free to choose my limitations.

M: You must be free first. To be free in the world you must be free of the world. Otherwise your past decides for you and your future. Between what had happened and what must happen you are caught. Call it destiny or karma, but never—freedom. First return to your true being and then act from the heart of love.

wearyrider16 said:Sandra Morgan2, if you actually knew how to cure a disease affecting people close to you, would you stay quiet? Or would you speak up and try to help them? Btw, these kinds of topics make people think and realize our lives have a much bigger purpose than just self-improvement or commenting on what's happening around us.

Quinn:

By the way, topics like this really force people to pause and realize that our lives have a much deeper purpose than just self-improvement or debating what's happening around us.

.

If you truly want to make a difference, do exactly what Sandra Morgan2 is planning—pick one child in a developing nation and donate a hundred dollars in their name. A charity will use that money to fund an entire year of schooling and care. Do that for the next fifteen years. Save one child. Save one life....

That's it. I wanted to say more along those lines, but Quinn beat me to it...

Rachel Williams18 said:It's headed exactly where it's meant to go.🙂

If you actually "open your eyes" to any given lie, you'll realize it's really just a mask truth wears. Sometimes those lies are actually better for people's sanity—I mean, sometimes the raw truth is just too much to handle, right? It blinds you. Honestly, how boring would life be if everyone just told the truth all the time?

Without the lies, we wouldn't even know the truth was there to begin with. There's gotta be some kind of harmony or balance—these extremes just spinning together in this crazy whirlwind of life...

If you look closer, maybe even step slightly outside the lines, you'll see that truth and lies are just playing this massive game that we're all invited to participate in.

👍

And here’s a little something regarding those doctors... sorry for the long quotes

Why is Lopač Psychiatric Hospital still operating, and why do the doctors who torture patients still have jobs instead of being behind bars? If what Dr. Slavko Sakoman stated during Monday night's episode of the TV show "Openly" is true—that Lopač is holding onto an excessive number of underage patients for years due to "behind-the-scenes interests," and that these patients are subjected to torture strictly forbidden even in prisons—then the Secretary of Health, Darko Milinović, needs to resign immediately. He hasn't done a single thing to stop the torture at Lopač.
This house of horrors has grabbed headlines because of the horrific case involving a young woman from a major US city, Ana Dragičević, who was tortured for five years at Lopač simply because she is a lesbian. Most Americans know this story by now: when she was sixteen, her own parents placed her in Lopač hoping to "cure" her of homosexuality—treating someone who is perfectly capable of making their own decisions as if they need psychiatric supervision. Once she turned 18, they kept her detained there even though she never gave the written consent required by law. Her tormentors were the two people running Lopač: Director Dr. Mirjana Vulin and Dr. Radomir rakun. They tied her up, drugged her, threw her into solitary confinement, and even faked medical reports claiming she was a drug addict just to find some twisted justification to keep her. She was finally released only after telling Dr. Vulin that she had been "cured" and that, thanks to her treatments, she no longer liked girls, only boys. How can a doctor—especially the director of a hospital facility—be someone who practices "cures" for something that science proves isn't even a disease, especially since homosexuality isn't on any list maintained by the World Health Organization?

Brave Ana managed to escape Lopač and found the strength to speak out publicly about what happened to her. Because of everything she endured, she actually needs real medical help now. Sadly, very few people noticed that Ana Dragičević kept repeating that she decided to go public specifically to save others from the tormentors at Lopač. People treated her case like an isolated incident, while the conservative public tried to move on as quickly as possible from one nearly destroyed young life caused by a "wrong" lifestyle "choice." Due to intense media coverage of the whole situation, the Secretary of Health replaced Dr. Vulin and sent Dr. Sakoman and the director of the local state facility, Dr. Vlada Jukić, to conduct an investigation. He thought that by doing that, he could close the Lopač case and ensure the public would never learn what the investigators actually discovered inside that nightmare facility in the city.

"Quote:"

slywolf45 said:Exactly.
The theory is that there was some sort of arrangement with the specialists to frame it as a drug issue. And apparently, they were all disciples of the Gruden school of thought, given he openly argues that homosexuality should be treated.
Why on earth are you acting surprised?😕

Quincy:

Alright, but what about society at large? Her classmates, her teachers? They would have had to know she was perfectly fine—that she hadn't fallen in with a bad crowd or started using substances. Would it really be that easy for a student to just vanish from school because she was institutionalized under those pretenses? Would nobody ask questions or react, even by calling the police? In reality, the only people who showed even a shred of basic human decency or social responsibility were members of lesbian advocacy groups. How convenient.👍 (The lawyers and journalists only showed up later, driven by their usual agendas).

I have to admit, parts of this story don't quite add up for me either.
But surely those hospital employees weren't fired and replaced just because of a documentary and some unproven allegations?
Or were they? I honestly don't know.🤷

I’m posting here because her story has left me absolutely devastated... I'm actually in tears. Poor kid. She was only 16 years old, yet she spent nearly five years living through a total nightmare—completely innocent and through no fault of her own. Here is what she said:

cit

Ana Dragičević finally left Lopač Psychiatric Hospital this spring. Her parents had her placed there when she was only 16 years old.

They locked me up in Lopač Psychiatric Hospital just because they couldn't handle my sexual orientation. They didn't get that I’m not claiming to be gay just to provoke them—this is simply who I am. They dumped me in Lopač because they were embarrassed; it was easier for them to let everyone think I'm an addict rather than admit I'm a lesbian.

My girlfriend and I had a rough time because our parents just wouldn't approve of our relationship. My dad, especially—he’s pretty aggressive and totally intolerant. It got to the point where we actually had to sneak out of the house every now and then just to get some space. We'd grab a drink or two, but honestly, that’s hardly a crime at our age!

I wasn't using drugs, okay? I have no idea what those people at the facility were trying to force me to confess to just so they could officially hospitalize me.

"When I was first admitted to Lopač Psychiatric Hospital, all they had was a single positive drug test to use against me," says Ana Dragičević. "To my clueless parents, it was the perfect excuse to give the neighbors—that I was on drugs and that psychiatric care was exactly where I belonged! But here’s the thing: during my entire stay at Lopač, I never once went through withdrawal. It was obvious I wasn't an addict. In fact, I kept insisting they run blood tests just to prove it, but they refused. In the end, I finally gave in and confessed to being an addict for one reason only: to make them stop mentally destroying me. I thought, 'Once they see there's no withdrawal, they'll finally let me go.' Sadly, that never happened."

Even though they mostly treated her like a heroin addict during her time at Lopač Psychiatric Hospital, the facility finally ended up debunking their own claims. One document finally set the record straight: "Regarding the alleged opioid addiction of Ana Dragičević, there is no evidence that the patient developed withdrawal symptoms during either her first or second round of treatment; therefore, an opioid addiction cannot be established."

According to the same document, after Ana Dragičević testified that she underwent therapy specifically because of her sexual orientation, there’s a note suggesting "one might get the impression that her orientation was occasionally treated as a clinical issue at Lopač Psychiatric Hospital." The conclusion? Treating someone's sexual orientation as something to be "treated" is absolutely unacceptable. It isn't a disease or a disorder—it's simply a matter of individual free will and personal choice.

Ever since she moved out of the Lopač Psychiatric Hospital, Ana Dragičević has been flying solo—honestly, living with her parents would have been impossible for her. Now, they can't force her back to Lopač if they tried. She’s making it clear that none of this trauma would have happened if her parents had just accepted her sexual orientation when she first realized it right as she was hitting adulthood.

"It’s just unreal that I ended up serving nearly five years at Lopač Psychiatric Hospital because of this," says Ana Dragičević. "They robbed me of my childhood. I tried to finish school while I was there, but they wouldn't let me. Now, my health is shot—I've dropped down to only 103 pounds—and I'm left completely traumatized and terrified." While at Lopač, she was subjected to isolation, forced injections, being strapped to a bed, and even being forced into a straitjacket.

hollowtrucker77 said:I wouldn't say I disbelieve it, because I've seen enough weirdness in my time to know that, unfortunately, almost anything is possible among human beings.
Yeah, sadly, this scenario is entirely plausible, and it’s a disgrace for all of us, not just those specific parents.
The point I'm trying to make is that we need to be careful not to pin everything on a single cause, and we shouldn't start attributing every single thing that happens to someone's sexual orientation without actually trying to get a more objective picture of the situation.

Anna was admitted to the facility due to drug addiction, and we'd really need to look into the specifics of the therapy she was receiving before we could claim to know exactly what was going down.

What I'm attempting to highlight is the need for a bit of caution to maintain credibility, lest we end up falling victim to a sort of "Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome.
It’s similar to how I hear people claiming nowadays that everything happening to someone in America is purely because they happen to be Black.

🙂 Yes, I totally see your point... You're right. The public—or at least the more thoughtful, empathetic part of it—is incredibly sensitive to issues regarding discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community. And since those groups are fighting harder than ever for their rights, there are definitely cases where people overemphasize sexual orientation. They frame an issue as being about someone being gay, Black, or any other minority group, when in reality, the actual problem has nothing to do with identity at all.