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Edward Flores4Look, you’ve definitely got a way with words—your delivery is top-notch—but if we're being honest, the actual substance behind those arguments is a little thin... though, I suppose that's kind of the point, isn't it? At the end of the day, we're all just here for the entertainment anyway.
The strength of any argument really boils down to how well you actually understand the people you're talking to—you have to meet them where they are, right? I mean, that being said, I definitely agree that at the end of the day, we're all just here for the fun of it.
If we actually sat down and framed the question of free will with any real logical rigor, we’d probably realize that proving its non-existence is an impossible task. You can't exactly corner it and pin it down. At most, what we're really looking at is whether it exists at all—or maybe just calculating the statistical probability that it doesn't. It’s more about the likelihood than a definitive "yes" or "no," if that makes sense.
If you frame your question the right way, you don't actually need to go around "proving" anything. Honestly, trying to prove a point is a bit of a fool's errand—it’s nearly impossible to reach that kind of absolute certainty. It’s much more effective to just point toward things that are undeniably real and tangible—you know, the stuff we can actually wrap our heads around, like the basic structure of an atom.
It’s funny how we work, isn't it? Even though science tells us there's actually nothing solid at the atomic level—just a whole lot of empty space—you still wake up every single morning and just trust that you aren't going to fall straight through the floor.
Honestly, whenever I dive into one of your posts, it feels like we’re living in two completely different universes—it's wild to think that this forum is really the only thing bridging the gap between us.
I honestly get that feeling more often than I’d care to admit—it’s like I’m living in some kind of alternate dimension or a side universe where nothing quite aligns with reality.
Honestly, I look around and all I see are zombies. It feels like everyone is just sprinting blindly toward these imaginary finish lines—chasing after this supposed "happiness" that doesn't even exist—all while being driven by impulses buried deep in their own subconscious. It makes you wonder... where does free will actually fit into all of this?
Free will isn't some active force that just kicks in on its own—it’s more like a capacity sitting there, waiting to be used. Think of it like a dual-core processor on your laptop when you're just playing a simple game of Tetris... one core is barely breaking a sweat while the other is basically idling away. It’s not going to suddenly decide to start running complex software without you telling it to. Free will works the exact same way. If it actually functioned on its own accord, we wouldn't even call it "free will"—we’d just call it "automatic" or "instinctive."
I mean, honestly—why even bother bringing it up if you aren't actually going to act on it? It’s like someone sitting around talking about how much they want to win a championship, or how much they wish they could land a job at Google, but then they never actually put in the work or show up to the meetings. If you have the opportunity right there in front of you, why just let it sit there? It feels a bit pointless to talk about manifesting something when you already have the tools in your hands. You know what I mean? It's like having a winning lottery ticket in your pocket and just staring at it instead of actually cashing it in.
There are so many ways you could look at this, but honestly, I think one of the biggest culprits is just plain old fear. People are genuinely terrified of making the wrong move when they have total freedom to choose. Instead of following their own gut, they end up constantly looking over their shoulder to see what the neighbor is doing—and then they try to mimic that exact same pattern. It’s like if the guy next door buys a Ford, everyone else feels this weird pressure to go out and get a Ford too, and if they can swing it, they’ll even aim for the slightly more expensive model just to prove they can.
Whether we’re talking about someone's career or just how they carry themselves in their personal life, I see it all the time—people being driven by pure ambition, raw greed, vanity, deep-seated insecurities, fears, or even addictions. It’s like they aren't actually the ones at the steering wheel. Most of the time, they aren't making conscious, deliberate decisions based on their own willpower; instead, they're just being pulled along by whatever they happen to be feeling in the moment or by circumstances that were set in motion long before they even walked into the room.
They basically just decide not to choose at all—they settle for being cheap imitations of everyone else. It’s one of those things where you have to wonder what's actually driving them. Maybe they’re just fully aware of their own lack of direction and figure it's easier to just piggyback on someone else's decisions. Or maybe they’re so terrified of being the odd one out—so scared of some social backlash that they’d rather blend into the background by copying others than take a stand and risk being judged. And then, honestly? Some people are just plain lazy. They spend their entire lives looking for the path of least resistance because, for them, actually sitting down to think through a decision feels like way too much work.
When you step back and look at the big picture, these people are being incredibly irresponsible toward themselves—really. They’re essentially handing over the steering wheel of their own lives to everyone else, consciously choosing to let outside influences dictate their path just because they’re terrified of standing out from the crowd... even if it means being dead wrong.
Here’s how I see it. For someone to act in that "pre-programmed" way (as you put it earlier), they actually have to exercise their "freedom of choice" to suppress their own natural reactions just to blend in with the surrounding social climate.
In a strange way, they are doing everything in their power to sabotage their own existence. They do it almost intentionally, fueled by this naive belief that following the herd is the "safest" bet. And I say *believing*, because honestly, it takes a massive amount of mental effort to be that mindless—you actually have to work hard to stay that ignorant if you want to convince yourself that copying others is the safest route.
Everything is set by social norms, upbringing, and all those other external forces designed to make people function "successfully" within a specific framework. Is that really what free will looks like?
That definitely isn't free will. Look, functional social norms exist for a reason, and that purpose clearly doesn't involve "freedom." It’s like a reset button on a computer—you don't expect the reset button to "freely choose" its actions; you just expect it to perform the reset.
So, anything that serves a specific, concrete function requires the absence of "free choice." In a society built on a division of labor, we rely on people respecting their individual roles and the broader social contract to keep things moving.
But that doesn't mean an individual can't be "free" in their private life and make their own choices there. In fact, by fulfilling that societal role, a person becomes a
persona—essentially a voice behind a mask. When they are performing a specific duty, they put themselves into that role, sliding a mask over their private identity to become the embodiment of that function.
A healthy person comes home from their job at a place like Ford or a local clinic and takes off that "mask." However... people who refuse to think deeply often forget that there’s a real person underneath that mask, and they never bother to take it off. They stay stuck in "function mode" forever. It’s like what Joseph Campbell used to say—"there's nobody there." Eventually, there is no one left, just the mask itself.
Is free will a function of the mind, reason, and intellect? Does it stem from feeling, or is it something else entirely?
Free will is actually a pretty integrated function, meaning it emerges from a bunch of "lower-tier" cognitive processes. You've got instincts, intuitive gut reactions, emotions, motivations (and there are plenty more), and even that sense of responsibility. These all hit you with different reactions to the exact same problem, and suddenly, you find yourself standing there facing a choice.
The harder someone tries to remain unconscious and ignorant, the less likely they are to ever face a real choice. But the person who considers even one thing beyond just their raw emotions, impulses, or self-interest... they are the ones who frequently find themselves staring down a "free choice." That person still has the option to react based on a primal urge or a sudden emotion... but they also have the ability to choose rationally by weighing logic and cause-and-effect. Someone who actively avoids making decisions technically isn't making a choice at all... except, they *have* chosen to avoid the choice, which is, in itself, a demonstration of free will. 🙂
One thing is certain, though. The manifestation of free will is mostly a byproduct of using our intellectual capacity. Meanwhile, the "choice" to avoid making a choice doesn't have any obvious outward signs. At first glance, it looks like freedom doesn't even exist, simply because avoiding a choice doesn't produce an external consequence like a concrete decision would.
How is it even possible to build psychological profiles if free will actually exists? To me, a profile implies predictability—it’s like a vector that follows a predetermined path. But if that path is already set, where does that leave our ability to choose? If everything is mapped out, then free will feels like an illusion.
If you want to build an actual psychological profile, you have to possess a significantly higher level of cognitive capacity than the person you’re trying to deconstruct. It’s pretty simple math. Most of the time, the police aren't dealing with masterminds—they're mostly running into half-wits, ambitious idiots, and intellectual voids of every possible description. Honestly, their "mental models" are so shallow that even a seasoned barista with a couple of years under their belt could probably figure them out. And let me tell you—trying to map out the psyche of the local barfly is actually way more complex than profiling your average criminal protagonist.
You know, there’s something truly unsettling about watching the police go after an average, decent person—someone who isn't looking for trouble and just wants to live their life—and seeing that moment when everything just... breaks. It’s like watching a controlled burn turn into a wildfire right before your eyes. Once they start targeting the regular folks, the whole sense of order just falls apart.
I’ve been thinking quite a bit about the whole Unabomber situation lately—you know, that dark chapter in American history where the FBI was basically playing a high-stakes game of cat and mouse with someone who seemed to be everywhere and nowhere at once. It’s one of those cases that really sticks in your mind because it wasn't just about the crimes themselves, but the sheer psychological weight of it all—this feeling of being watched by an invisible force that was fueled by such intense, specific grievances against the direction our society was heading. It’s almost like when you’re looking at a massive, sprawling corporation like Amazon or Google and you start wondering if the sheer scale of modern life is actually stripping away our individual agency—that’s the core of what he was shouting about, even if his methods were absolutely horrific. He was essentially a radical critic of industrialization wrapped in a package of pure terror. Looking back, it makes you wonder how much of that frustration is still simmering under the surface in different ways today. Even though the manhunt eventually ended, the questions he raised about technology and how it reshapes the human experience... well, they haven't exactly gone away, have they? They've just changed shape."
Looking back at that stretch from 1978 all the way through 1995—man, what a wild ride that was. It’s funny how you don't realize you're living through a massive era until you step back and see the whole picture laid out. It felt like an entire lifetime packed into those seventeen years, shifting from one world into something completely different.You know, when you look back at the history of domestic terrorism in the States, cases like Unabomber Ted Kaczynski really stand out for how calculated they were—it wasn't just random violence. He actually mailed sixteen different explosive devices to specific targets, ranging from major universities to various airlines, which ultimately resulted in three deaths and left twenty-three others injured. It’s one of those dark chapters that really sticks with you because of how much damage he managed to inflict through the mail. So, Kaczynski actually ended up sending a letter over to The New York Times—which, if you think about it, is kind of a wild move in itself. It’s one of those things that really makes you stop and wonder about the headspace someone must be in to decide that a major national paper is the right venue for their thoughts. It isn't just some random note thrown into the void, either; he was reaching out to the biggest platform in the country to lay out his entire worldview. It's like when someone decides to skip the local town hall and instead tries to broadcast their manifesto through a massive megaphone in the middle of Times Square—it changes the whole energy of the conversation. Back on April 24, 1995, he actually made a deal—promising he’d step away from all the terrorism stuff, provided that either the New York Times or The Washington Post agreed to run his manifesto.
Even with everything the FBI threw at him, they didn't actually nail him through their own investigation. It wasn't some high-tech breakthrough that did the trick—instead, his own brother put two and two together. He looked at that manifesto and recognized Ted’s specific way of writing and those unmistakable beliefs of his, so he decided to tip off the Feds.
Kaczynski earned his bachelor's degree... So, I was thinking about this the other day—you know how people always talk about having a degree from Harvard like it’s some kind of golden ticket? It’s funny, because we tend to view those Ivy League credentials as this ultimate, untouchable seal of approval. It’s like having a driver's license from a racing academy; sure, it looks great on the dashboard, and people might give you a second look when you pull up, but at the end of the day, it’s still just you behind the wheel. I mean, don't get me wrong—it’s an incredible achievement. Nobody is questioning the grit or the brainpower it takes to get through those gates. But there's this subtle assumption that the name on the diploma does half the heavy lifting for you once you enter the workforce. In reality, it’s more like a really high-end starter kit. It gets you into the room, maybe even gets you a seat at the table, but once you're sitting there, nobody cares about the logo on your sweatshirt anymore. They care if you can actually solve the problem in front of you. It reminds me of how some people treat brand-name tools versus the reliable ones you find at a local Home Depot. A fancy, branded tool might feel more prestigious, but if it can't turn a bolt under pressure, it’s just a paperweight. At the end of the day, whether you studied at an Ivy or picked up your knowledge through years of grinding in the trenches, what actually matters is the substance of what you bring to the table. The pedigree is the opening act, but the performance? That's all on you. I finally wrapped up my degree at the university—it feels like I’ve been working toward this forever, honestly! It was quite the journey, but having that diploma in hand makes all those late nights and endless coffee runs feel worth it. Now comes the fun part: seeing where this path actually leads me. So, I’ve been thinking quite a bit lately about the whole idea of pursuing a PhD in mathematics—you know, that deep, grueling dive into the pure logic of things. It isn't just about being "good at math," though that's certainly a prerequisite; it's more like deciding you want to spend several years staring into a single, incredibly complex abyss until the abyss starts making sense. It’s a bit like training to be a professional cellist or a high-level surgeon—it’s not just about knowing how to play the notes or hold the scalpel, it’s about developing a certain kind of mental stamina that most people just don't realize exists. You aren't just learning formulas; you're essentially learning a new language to describe the very fabric of reality. And let's be honest, there are days when that language feels less like poetry and more like a brick wall you're repeatedly running into. The academic path in the States is such a specific beast, too. You have the grueling qualifying exams—which feel a lot like those high-stakes SATs on steroids—followed by the long, lonely stretch of research where you're basically trying to solve a puzzle that nobody else in the world even knows exists yet. It can be isolating. There are moments where you’ll be sitting in a library at some big university, maybe somewhere like Stanford or MIT, and you'll wonder if you're actually making progress or if you're just spinning your wheels in the sand. But then, there's that "aha!" moment. That split second where a proof finally clicks, or a pattern emerges from the chaos, and suddenly the fog clears. It’s a rush unlike anything else—kind of like finally hitting that perfect chord after weeks of practice. If you have that itch, that genuine, restless need to understand the *why* behind the *how*, then it’s worth it. Just go into it with your eyes open, because it's a marathon, not a sprint, and you're going to need plenty of coffee and a very thick skin to get through to the other side. He graduated from the University of Michigan—really top-tier stuff—and eventually moved up to become an assistant. Professor at the University of CaliforniaHe landed a position at UC Berkeley when he was just 25—which is pretty impressive if you think about it—but he ended up stepping down only two years later.It’s pretty obvious at this point—not everyone is actually capable of being successfully rehabilitated. I mean, look at this guy. He was out there for nearly two decades after his own brother turned him in... and honestly, if it hadn't been for that betrayal, he’d probably still be out there mailing bombs to people today. Some people just don't change. 🙂
You know, I’ve been thinking lately about this whole concept of free will—the thing we all love to brag about and hold so close to our hearts. We talk about it like it’s this absolute superpower we wield, but if you really peel back the layers, it feels more like a faint, flickering possibility. For most people out there, it probably isn't even a driving force; it’s more like a subtle nudge that stays in the background while the rest of life just happens to them. It’s less like being the pilot of a jet and more like someone caught in a light breeze, thinking they're choosing which way to drift when, really, the wind is doing most of the heavy lifting. A seed—just a tiny, untapped possibility that never actually got the chance to take root or grow into something real.
It’s almost spot on... except it wasn't that the idea just failed to take flight on its own—it’s more that they made a conscious choice to let it die in the cradle.
There’s this old metaphor from Hindu mythology that perfectly describes people like that—you know the type. It’s about a king preparing for a massive, "holy" battle. As he’s getting ready, he starts mourning all the losses he knows the fight is inevitably going to take. He’s grieving before the first arrow is even fired. But then his charioteer—who is actually Krishna in disguise—looks at him and basically says, "Why bother mourning? There's no one left to grieve... because, in truth, they’re already dead."
They really went about it under this huge misconception—that they were actually dying for some higher cause by putting faith above everything else. But when you look at the reality behind that myth, Hinduism stands out as this incredibly rare religion that hasn't gone around fighting wars "in the name of God." You see, a myth isn't just some old legend or a fairy tale; it’s more like a practical application of wisdom—it's about using the freedom of choice to navigate the world. 🙂
If I recall correctly from a psychology thread I stumbled upon a while back, you mentioned that you work in marketing—and quite successfully at that, too. It got me thinking about this fascinating contradiction: how can we say people have free will if marketing is actually effective at nudging our behavior?
It’s because they genuinely believe someone else knows what’s best for them. Honestly, when I’m out looking for a new computer, I don't need some salesperson breathing down my neck with "expert" advice—and frankly, most of them aren't even trying to push anything on me anyway. They can usually tell right away that I actually know what I'm looking for.
Look, most people walk into a dealership and immediately start grilling the salesperson. But if you really think about it—and I do—they’re actually looking to be taken for a ride. That’s exactly why marketing even exists in the first place. In a weird way, the more I can convince them they're getting a "deal" or owning something exclusive, the happier they are with their purchase. It’s like when someone insists on a designer jacket; they don't care if the stitching is identical to a cheaper version—they just need that high-end logo to feel the weight of the price tag. It’s the exact same jacket, but the "expensive" logo makes it worth something to them. To me, it’s clearly just a tax on the gullible, but hey, it’s also the single reason why I only have to put in about two hours of actual work a day.
Marketing exists because people—quite frankly—insist on being conned, and they seem to actually enjoy it. It’s not even about the product itself; it’s about how much you can spend. In this culture, consumption has become the primary metric we use to measure ourselves against everyone else.
I see marketing as essentially a byproduct of widespread stupidity married to the unquenchable greed of capitalism—which is its own kind of stupidity, really, since the whole model is totally unsustainable in the long run. And let's be honest, the pool of "stupidity" that marketing feeds off of is practically bottomless. The real tragedy is that the people pouring money into these campaigns often aren't even aware of it—they frequently end up spending more on the hype than they do on the actual manufacturing of the product.
Now, don't get me wrong... not all marketing is pure nonsense. There are folks out there who genuinely produce high-quality, useful goods, so marketing isn't always just a tool for deception... though, if we're being real, those cases are pretty rare.
Doesn't marketing work on a subconscious level of the personality? If it’s possible to influence someone's will and decisions through marketing, then we have to conclude that those decisions are coming from the subconscious level—at least in most instances.
Yes, but also no! Sure, marketing hits you subconsciously, but it’s really just "playing" on your existing motivations—specifically, your willingness to maintain your "social status" through sheer spending.
Take computer marketing, for example. Why is it always framed as "gamer" or "sexy"? One version is aimed at kids, while that ultra-thin laptop is basically a substitute for some massive ego trip you're too embarrassed to show your friends. The professionals—the guys doing actual 3D modeling or heavy-duty design work—aren't even looking at flashy ads when they decide which rig to buy.
I could walk past five hundred massive billboards for an iPhone, and not a single one would motivate me to check the price, let alone buy one. You only really need advertising when you're buying something you don't actually need. Unfortunately... most of what gets sold to consumers is stuff they never truly needed in the first place.
If that's the case, we know very well from over a century of psychological and psychiatric development that a huge chunk of our behavior and decision-making is actually the result of processes within the subconscious mind—our personality, whatever you want to call it. How much room does that leave for free will?
It leaves exactly as much room as you allow by questioning your own "impulses"—those things that seemingly come from "nowhere"—and then rationalizing where they came from. The more reflective you are regarding your own motives, the more "space" you have to be free from a reactive, subconscious mind.
What about OCD, addictive behaviors, or substance abuse? Where did their free will go in those cases? Why is it that such a tiny percentage of people actually manage to successfully "get clean" permanently? Where is the free will in that?
"Addiction" to substances doesn't exist in a vacuum. Addiction is caused by opioids or narcotics, both of which inhibit the functions of the psyche.
But that's a completely different conversation... we're talking about physical dependencies that trigger physical effects. In those moments, free will doesn't do squat—just like if you break your collarbone... it damn well hurts regardless of how much free will you think you have, and you'll do absolutely anything just to make that pain stop.
But even then... they chose to become addicted. Because no matter what anyone tells them, they KNOW they are becoming addicts, and they consciously choose to ignore it, using their freedom of choice to look the other way. Once addiction takes hold, free will isn't enough to facilitate rehabilitation. Some choices are simply irreversible.
| So, what about the lack of willpower? |
I think you’ve caught onto the "thread" we’re pulling here by now, so there's really no need for me to spell it out further 🙂
Freedom of choice and willpower are actually two distinct things. Freedom exists as a potential, whereas willpower is the actual force that allows that potential to manifest. At least, that's how I experience it. The only way a person can truly come alive—to actually achieve something and exercise true free will—is through complete self-awareness. It’s only when someone is capable of using their own will to peer into the darkest corners of their subconscious that we can even begin to talk about genuine free will.
So... the issue is willpower. And the "problem" with free will only exists for those who choose not to use it. That’s exactly what I was getting at from the start—there isn't a problem with free will itself. The problem is "free aimlessness."
And please, don't hold it against me if my level of intelligence doesn't quite reach the depths of your forum posts. I was born with what I have, and I don't exactly have much say in the matter... and if intelligence is linked to free will, as you suggest, then I get the slight impression that a huge amount of life is predetermined, leaving very little left for free will to actually manifest unconditionally.
I think you've got that backwards. Intelligence is just like a bicep—the more you work it, the stronger it gets. Muscles you don't use? They atrophy. The intellect works the exact same way. It can weaken incredibly fast, or grow incredibly strong... it all just depends on how much you put it to use.
Still... you don't strike me as unintelligent, if that makes you feel any better. 🙂
Beautiful rhetoric, truly. But try pulling just one chip off a computer—say, the northbridge on a motherboard—and let me know if the PC still boots.😉
The mind functions via parallel processing. People can suffer brain trauma or lose their hearing, yet everything else keeps running... so comparing it to a motherboard is just a fundamentally flawed analogy.
And finally, please tell me: which civilization or nation has ever actually overcome and mastered its own instincts and impulses? Especially through reason, rather than through force?
In the West, we call people who are afraid of heights "phobics"... but people living deep in the Amazon rainforest might have a phobia of heights *and* agoraphobia, simply because they've learned to live with their sightlines blocked by dense jungle canopy.
We've clearly mastered the fear of heights, since we can be rationally convinced that walking along a balcony doesn't pose a threat, even if our instinct is screaming otherwise.
Sure... that's a pretty basic example, but what we want to overcome, we *can* overcome. The only exceptions are those raw reflexes that stay active even after someone has passed away... for a short while, at least. 🙂