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2014 Monaco Grand Prix Recap & Discussion

Started by silentbadger17 · · 👁 19 views · 203 replies

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steelmaker83 steelmaker83 Active Member
215 messages
joined May 2019
#141 ·
graniteharbor502 said:If you take a look at the lap times from the first stint, it’s pretty clear: Kimi Räikkönen was running faster than Fernando Alonso. To be specific, Kimi put down three separate laps that were quicker than Alonso's absolute best.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...nando%20Alonso

Look, it’s common knowledge that overtaking in Monaco is practically impossible. If you're the driver in front—in this case, Kimi Räikkönen—you dictate the pace entirely. Kimi is far too seasoned to burn through his tires in the opening laps, so I disagree with the prevailing theory here. Kimi was simply managing his rubber to prepare for one final push before his pit stop. If you actually look at the final laps leading up to the Safety Car, it's clear that Alonso's pace began to drop as well, and the gap between him and the Finn was steadily shrinking. Kimi held a 17-second lead over Kevin Magnussen, a margin that was consistently widening. In just a few more laps, he would have had plenty of breathing room to pit and rejoin the track ahead of the Dane. To put that in perspective, when Massa pitted for the first time, he held a 14.3-second advantage over Kimi, yet he emerged from the pits only 2.7 seconds behind.
After that drop in position following Chilton's blunder, comparing pace becomes a bit of a headache. Kimi was stuck behind Kobayashi and then trailing Gutiérrez. Meanwhile, Ricciardo pulled away from Alonso, leaving him with nothing but clean air ahead. However, if you factor in that Gutiérrez spun out on lap 60 and Kimi was already glued to Button's gearbox by lap 68, we can actually get a decent comparison of the Ferrari pace between laps 61 and 67: Kimi clawed back 3.1 seconds of Alonso's lead. And let's not overlook Kimi Räikkönen's fastest lap. Statistically speaking, only Michael Schumacher (and maybe Alain Prost, depending on how you count those fastest laps following other drivers' disqualifications) stands above Kimi in the fastest lap records. Personally, though, I'm not exactly thrilled. Primarily because it looks like the podium has just vanished into thin air. All the rest of it is secondary. That said, Kimi isn't the one to blame for any of this.

If you’re looking strictly at the lap times, sure, it looks like Massa is outperforming Bottas on those older tires. But you have to look at the actual track position. Massa has clear air in front of him, while Bottas is stuck trailing right behind Jenson Button. You can't possibly know how fast he would be if he actually had the space to breathe. As for Alonso, his pace was dropping on the old rubber—he clocked a 1:21.8 on that last lap before the Safety Car came out. Then just look at his pace on the softs once the Safety Car pulled in. By the third lap—right when Daniel Ricciardo gave him a bit of breathing room—he was already running eight-tenths faster than that. The "undercut" has become a staple of the modern era; basically, whoever hits the pits first gains the advantage by running on fresh rubber. Given all that, I have no idea where you're getting your optimism that Alonso can actually jump Kimi Räikkönen. 🤷

Finally, some actual logic. I’ll concede this point, mostly because I admitted in my opening post that I hadn't factored in exactly where Kimi would emerge or the kind of traffic he’d be hitting. I also made it clear—both in that first post and several times since—that while Daniel Ricciardo would likely overtake him, Fernando Alonso would have a much harder time doing it. It isn't impossible, of course, but apparently, for certain people, a gap of 3.3 seconds is basically a lap ahead.

I’m sticking to my guns on this one: Alonso's pit exit was incredibly close to being perfect, and honestly, it's a shame it didn't pan out the way it should have.

On another note, Kimi really earned that podium in Monaco (assuming the race had actually wrapped up by lap 26). His start and restart were nothing short of flawless.
steelmaker83 steelmaker83 Active Member
215 messages
joined May 2019
#142 ·
stormybadger8 said:To put it simply, Alonso only had a shot at Kimi if Kimi’s crew botched the pit stop (like an excessively long stationary time) or if there was someone else on track to get in the way...

Now for the long version... go check fia.com and stop embarrassing yourself...
1. Right before his pit entries, Kimi got caught behind the Caterhams and ended up lapping them, so it's hardly a mystery that he lost time right then...
2. If Kimi had taken a standard 25-second pit stop, he would have emerged right ahead of Hulkenberg and just in front of Jean-Éric Vergne, likely sitting in clear air with about a 5-6 second gap... meanwhile, Alonso would have finished right behind Hulkenberg, or potentially even behind Valtteri Bottas since they were relatively close on track. Even if he did come out ahead of Bottas, he'd have run straight into Hulkenberg immediately after.

Basically, traffic was only going to screw over Alonso. Kimi managed to shake off the traffic (the slower cars) right before pitting to emerge into relatively open space, whereas Alonso was just about to catch those trailing cars and would have certainly dropped behind the relatively slow Hulkenberg and Bottas after his stop. ☕
Alonso started pushing hard at that moment specifically to avoid finishing behind Bottas or Hulkenberg, not because he actually had a chance to overtake Kimi or Ricciardo...

Seriously, why do you waste your time on this sport?

How on earth would Alonso (assuming he could have driven faster than Kimi when the latter rejoined) have finished behind Hulkenberg (and why does that even matter?), if with that exact same driving pace—assuming it actually was faster than Kimi's—he might have finished ahead of Kimi himself. He either overtakes him or he doesn't. Everything else is irrelevant.

Too complicated?
stormybadger8 stormybadger8 Veteran
1.8K messages
joined Apr 2013
#143 ·
darkmarlin16 said:Renault is my absolute favorite team in Formula 1. As for Ferrari, they've been my team since the 2008 Canadian GP. Before that, I just couldn't see myself rooting for them.

I honestly don't even know what to say to those Ferrari fans you're talking about. 🤣

And what would you even say?🤷
I'm not talking about some random internet personas; I'm talking about people I actually know by name.
stormybadger8 stormybadger8 Veteran
1.8K messages
joined Apr 2013
#144 ·
Jamie Hall said:Hehe, there's really nothing to debate here. You already know who joined Ferrari this year, and you know who's been with them since 2009.

That tells you everything. And no, I’m not saying this just to defend Kimi; I'm saying it because it's simply the reality.

We all know the car isn't going to be built to favor the rookie over the veteran who's been in the squad.

It doesn't necessarily have to work out that way...
When you're dealing with massive rule changes, it’s entirely possible the car ends up suiting a complete newcomer better than the team's main man. That's a different story, though—fine-tuning and development throughout the season.
In that regard, they'll likely tune the car for Alonso if he stays, but if he signs elsewhere and moves to a new team, they'll definitely be tailoring the car to Kimi.

We can spin stories all day, but the fact remains: right now, Alonso is better than Kimi.
Sure, Kimi got lucky in a few races and might have finished ahead of Alonso if things had gone differently, but he didn't, and at the end of the day, Alonso came out on top... we'll see how it plays out by the end of the season.
Jason Campbell70 Jason Campbell70 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2017
#145 ·
Douglas Parker61 said:And Alonso didn't have those kinds of incidents.☕


A completely missed comparison. I don't even see the point in arguing against it.

From the basic possibility of making a judgment, to the independence required to make one, down to how that decision actually affects the other drivers on track.

stormybadger8 said:what can you say🤷
I'm not talking about some virtual characters here, but people I know by name and surname...

Sure thing. Everyone is a real person, right? Just like that Red Bull employee living in Heppenheim who was always tipping you off with insider info.
stormybadger8 stormybadger8 Veteran
1.8K messages
joined Apr 2013
#146 ·
steelmaker83 said:Seriously, why do you even waste your time on this sport?

How on earth would Alonso (in a scenario where he could actually drive faster than Räikkönen once he exited the pits) end up behind Hulkenberg (and why does that even matter?), if that exact same driving pace (assuming it was actually faster than Kimi's) might have landed him ahead of him instead. He either overtakes him or he doesn't. Everything else is noise.

Too complicated for you?

Clearly, it’s just too complicated for you.🤷

You've basically cooked up some sci-fi fantasy where Driver B overtakes Driver A by trailing 3.3 seconds behind him, maintaining roughly the same lap times, pitting a lap after Driver A, and somehow coming out ahead despite getting stuck behind slower cars during the pit exit...
Sure, that's literally impossible, but I guess the Maestro would pull it off with some kind of magic.😁
Jerry Rogers6 Jerry Rogers6 Active Member
223 messages
joined Feb 2014
#147 ·
stormybadger8 said:So why?
Look, I get all five points, but honestly, Lewis Hamilton was a massive disappointment in this race...
People love to blame Nico Rosberg because he hasn't really stepped up yet—not once having actually beaten Lewis on pure track pace—while Lewis hasn't even attempted to put pressure on Rosberg for a single full race distance.😳
Then there’s the way he was throwing shade at his own crew because they wouldn't let him take precedence during the pit stops... if they had actually done that, it would have been just as much of a complete circus as that disaster at Ferrari where Alonso was called in first despite being stuck behind Kimi on the track...

Man, did you catch that?

For me, the highlight was that part where he talked about how he basically had his own private strategist in the cockpit who held some kind of (insane) authority over the actual team strategist.
I don't even know how he can talk about something like that without feeling any embarrassment at all.😁

P.S. Though, Toto Wolff later made it crystal clear that that kind of ego trip doesn't fly with them, so I'm glad to hear it.
steelmaker83 steelmaker83 Active Member
215 messages
joined May 2019
#148 ·
stormybadger8 said:Clearly, you find simple concepts too complicated.🤷

You’ve basically cooked up some sci-fi scenario where Driver B overtakes Driver A by trailing him at exactly 3.3 seconds, maintaining nearly identical lap times for several laps, pitting right behind Driver A, and somehow emerging ahead of him despite getting stuck behind slower cars on the exit.
It’s physically impossible, sure, but I suppose Maestro would pull it off with some kind of magic trick.😁

How can he be driving at the same speed if he's driving faster? At that pace, those 3.3 seconds would have dropped to under 2.0 before the pit stops. It’s just a matter of being faster on old tires for a lap or two; that would have been enough.

Impossible?

Hard to grasp?

Is it worth wasting this much time explaining it?

NO.
Amanda Kelly Amanda Kelly Regular
360 messages
joined Mar 2008
#149 ·
Emily Patel64 said:Man, did you catch that?

My personal highlight was when he talked about having his own personal strategist who basically had more authority than the actual team strategist. That sounds insane.
I don't even get how he can talk about stuff like that without feeling embarrassed at all. I just don't get it. 😁

PS. Though, Toto later made it clear that that kind of ego doesn't fly at their team, so I'm glad to hear that.

Dakle, they're both being difficult.
It looks like Lewis is even more narcissistic than I thought. It’s a shame he didn't actually call out that guy during the delay. Actually, maybe he would have, considering how trivial and ridiculous the whole thing seemed, but someone with an ounce of common sense probably stepped in and stopped him.

We'll find out about the situation with Toto soon enough. We'll see which driver he starts playing games with in the upcoming races.
Amanda Kelly Amanda Kelly Regular
360 messages
joined Mar 2008
#150 ·
I don't get why everyone spends so much energy obsessing over overtake scenarios at the front.
In my opinion, nobody would have even touched Kimi if he’d actually managed to hold his position.

That said, Red Bull was clearly in a different league compared to Ferrari.
At least for Monaco, it's crystal clear that Mercedes-AMG is miles ahead (we already knew that), but it's also obvious that Red Bull is definitely the No. 2 team. Ferrari was ahead of the rest of the field using the Mercedes Power Unit, but they were still trailing significantly behind RB.

Honestly, it's a shame for the race drama—what with Kimi's mishaps and Vettel's turbo issues. There could have been some intense chasing going on, even if it was just between them.
I feel for Vettel (that's his second DNF without even getting a shot at it), but I can't bring myself to feel sorry for Kimi. At least he actually put in the work, unlike most of the others out there.
stormybadger8 stormybadger8 Veteran
1.8K messages
joined Apr 2013
#151 ·
steelmaker83 said:He’s driving at the same pace when he's actually going faster? That 3.3 gap would drop below 2.0 if he kept that tempo, and then it's just a matter of being faster on old tires for a lap or two—that would have been enough.

Impossible?
Too hard to wrap your head around?
Is it even worth wasting this much time explaining it?
NO.

Being faster on old tires by 2 seconds in the exact same car compared to new tires...
Sorry, but that's impossible for me to swallow. Apparently, that kind of logic only works for certain Alonso fans.😁
coastalwolf6 coastalwolf6 Member
46 messages
joined Jun 2014
#152 ·
Didn't you see the onboard thermal imagery? The tires are cold; they aren't even being used at all. 🤣
Amanda Kelly Amanda Kelly Regular
360 messages
joined Mar 2008
#153 ·
By the way, who even counts as the driver of the race here, besides Jules Bianchi?

For me, it’s Ricciardo, pretty much as usual.
Or maybe it’s Hulk, if we're just picking the best of the rest?
graniteharbor502 graniteharbor502 Regular
443 messages
joined Apr 2016
#154 ·
Roger Wright94 said:By the way, who would you even consider the driver of the race here, besides Jules Bianchi?

Well, if you ask me, Ricciardo was solid, though perhaps it felt almost routine.
Or should we perhaps point toward Hulk as being the standout among the rest?

Ricciardo wasn't actually bad, though one might argue he reached the podium due to a certain web of circumstances. I find myself doubting whether he truly would have secured that third-place finish had Sebastian Vettel not retired, and if Kimi hadn't struggled so much with his tires against Max Chilton.

One really shouldn't overlook Nico Rosberg either. And you made a fair point regarding Hulk; it was certainly another one of his quite impressive performances.
stormybadger8 stormybadger8 Veteran
1.8K messages
joined Apr 2013
#155 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Btw, who was even the driver of the race here, besides Jules Bianchi?

For me, it’s Ricciardo—pretty much business as usual.
Or maybe Hulk, if we're picking the best of the rest?

Felipe Massa 🤷
He wasn't exactly stealing the spotlight, but climbing from 16th on the grid to 7th at the Monaco Grand Prix isn't exactly a bad day at the office...
stormybadger8 stormybadger8 Veteran
1.8K messages
joined Apr 2013
#156 ·
image

😬
Jerry Rogers6 Jerry Rogers6 Active Member
223 messages
joined Feb 2014
#157 ·
😬😁😁

You can't just outrun karma—yeah, even if you’re supposedly the fastest Formula 1 driver on the planet 🙂
Jerry Rogers6 Jerry Rogers6 Active Member
223 messages
joined Feb 2014
#158 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Basically, they’re both screwing up.
It seems Lewis Hamilton is even more narcissistic than I originally suspected. Honestly, it's a shame he didn't bring—or rather, show off—some random dog or girl during that delay. Actually, maybe he would have, given how harmlessly ridiculous the whole thing felt, but someone with a shred of common sense probably stepped in to shut it down.

As for the situation with Toto Wolff, we'll find out pretty quickly. We'll see which driver they decide to play games with in the upcoming races.

I can't remember the exact term, but he talks about having his own personal strategist as if it's just a self-evident part of his reality.

Toto kept emphasizing how much the team matters to them—he actually seemed sincere 😬—but let's be real: they'll cheat just as much as they need to.
Looking at this season, it feels like they're just vacuuming up everything; I doubt there will be any surprises. It just goes to show that nobody is just some clown who likes to dress up on the grid and talk trash—they are still massive players in the world of Formula 1.
Joshua Scott Joshua Scott Newcomer
3 messages
joined Nov 2010
#159 ·
Emily Patel64 said:I can't quite put a name to it—but he talks about his personal strategist as if it’s some self-evident truth in his own twisted reality.

Actually, it would be fascinating if teammates could pit simultaneously—with the driver's own guy calling the shots—just to see some actual blood spilled within the team. It would certainly be interesting. As it stands, you never really know how much a driver leans on their own people—though, let's be honest, it happens in every single team.
Jerry Rogers6 Jerry Rogers6 Active Member
223 messages
joined Feb 2014
#160 ·
What is even the point of having a team if they don't act as one?
How much more would the team have actually gained in Monaco if they hadn't stripped Nico Rosberg of his advantage? Lujo argues that they should have seized every single opportunity presented to them—especially since he already botched the start.
To me, that kind of logic is basically kindergarten level.😁

Nico Rosberg isn't about to just sit there and be the sidekick, and honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the team starts catering to him more often, given the sheer pace (and talent) he brings to the table.

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