2013 Canadian GP - Montreal (June 9)

Roger Wright94 said:Alright, let's talk about Bottas. But seriously, you really think defending in the first lap counts as the highlight of the race?
So, we’ve actually reached the point where we lose our minds just because Alonso can't overtake someone within a mile or two during the very first lap.
Good grief, if you thought that was intense, just remember Abu Dhabi 2010! That race was pure, unadulterated adrenaline. Absolute perfection.

And don't even get me started on that last race. You want to defend Sergio Pérez in Monaco? Good luck with that. Once Valtteri Bottas actually passes his test, maybe then he'll be worth anything.

My bad, I completely forgot we were all just taking shots at Alonso—aka The Magnificent. Clearly, my brain was elsewhere when I started talking about Pérez and Bottas. Just being an idiot, I guess.

To be honest, I wasn't even paying much attention to Alonso during that Abu Dhabi race. I was mostly just watching what Vettel was up to. 😁So, it’s basically Hamilton first, then Webber...

Looks like you guys only have eyes for Alonso.🙂 Of course you guys are forgetting the obvious... Bottas was only on his seventh career race!😳
Just look at that seventh race and how they had to deal with Alonso. Honestly, it’s not even about him—any kid would have been just as much of a nightmare if it were Hamilton, Vettel, or Kimi.😉...but also to everyone else.
Honestly, out on the track, it looked like a legit duel between Alonso and Kimi, not some rookie who just climbed into an F1 car yesterday.
At the end of the day, Alonso didn't even have to break a sweat fighting Bottas compared to what he went through with Hamilton. I mean, come on—it was basically Mercedes versus Williams. 😉
Trying to defend a position in that absolute junk heap of a car? Good luck. 🙏
And that's without any bullshit, contact, dirty driving, or just being plain clueless. 😉

Just imagine what they’d pull if you had Grosjean, Maldonado, or Sergio Pérez on the lineup.

The guy definitely belongs in Formula 1, and honestly, he’s driving a much better car than that.🙂
Maybe this sounds crazy right now, but I honestly see him as a legitimate threat for wins and podiums in the seasons to come.
Not many drivers actually leave a good impression on me... but Valtteri Bottas is definitely one of them. 👍

stormybadger8 said:To be honest, I wasn't even paying much attention to Alonso during that Abu Dhabi race. I was mostly just keeping an eye on what Vettel was up to. 😁So, primarily Hamilton, followed by Webber...

It looks like you're still fixated on nothing but Alonso.🙂 Of course, you're all overlooking the obvious... Bottas was only making his seventh career start.😳
Just look at that seventh race and how they had to deal with Alonso. It honestly doesn't matter who it was; any kid in that position would have reacted the exact same way if they were facing Hamilton, Vettel, or Kimi.😉...but then again, that goes for everyone else too.
On track, it looked more like a heavyweight duel between Alonso and Kimi than some rookie who just climbed into a car yesterday.
At the end of the day, Alonso didn't have nearly as much trouble dealing with Bottas as he did with Hamilton. I mean, let's be real—it was just Mercedes versus Williams. 😉
Trying to defend a position in that absolute junk pile of a car? Please. 🙏
And that’s without any nonsense, any contact, or any dirty, clumsy moves. 😉

Just imagine what they’d try to pull if you had Grosjean, Maldonado, or Sergio Pérez around today.

The guy definitely belongs in Formula 1, and he’s driving a significantly better car than that.🙂
It might sound a bit crazy right now, but I see him as a legitimate contender for wins and podium finishes in the seasons to come.
Not many drivers actually leave a lasting impression on me, but Valtteri Bottas is definitely one of them. 👍

Sometimes you read posts that genuinely make you wonder what people are thinking... but when I actually have to say something, here it is:

Look, I’ll be blunt: he should have been more proactive about securing his spot. Given how things usually go with rookies, he clearly underestimated just how aggressive this kid would be when defending his position. He had a career-defining opportunity right in front of him, and he failed to realize that someone this talented isn't going to just hand over their seat without a fight.

Under two—first lap, tires aren't up to temp yet. All you can expect is a complete disaster during braking.

Po three—the veterans know how this works. Given his reputation, he just waited to see how the kid was breathing before elegantly and safely picking him off at the end of the first lap. Losing a second or maybe a second and a half here is negligible compared to what could have happened if he’d tried to bully the kid at the second chicane, risking some insane defensive move that would've left the rest of the field in the dust.

Look, I’m clearly losing my mind here. I shouldn't even have to break this down for you, but since you’re being so incredibly persistent, fine. Here it is.

steelmaker83 said:props to Sebastian Vettel, but honestly—I want to see him in a different car facing actual challenges so we can get a realistic idea of how good he really is. The kid is talented, no doubt about it, but that synergy he’s got with his current car is insane—which is the whole point of Formula 1, I guess—but I need to see him when things aren't perfect.

Every legendary driver goes through a phase like this... and that's when a true fan sees their real worth. Vettel isn't there yet, but he's young—he'll get there eventually.

A "true fan"? 🤦

Did he not prove he was a beast back in the Toro Rosso? Even a total amateur could see then that the kid was a born champion—it's just those blind idiots over at Ferrari waiting for him to snag ten more titles before they even think about offering him a decent contract before he retires.

steelmaker83 said:Sometimes you read posts that make you wonder... but hey, if I have to say it, I will:

Regarding point four—I feel like an idiot even having to explain this, but you're persistent, so here we go...

It’s a good thing you wrote this for everyone else's sake.
To be honest, he’s clearly messing with us. It's obvious as day. But I'm not even mad. There's actually plenty of reason to be happy right now.

Sebastian Vettel won, his lead grew, Mercedes are better but still struggling, Lotus catastrophe, McLaren tragedy... Webber finished fourth despite having the best car on track... You can find enough stuff like that.
The real issue is that Alonso overtook four of them to take second. For two days straight, all anyone talks about is Alonso.

I'm just wondering what comes next.

Roger Wright94 said:But the real issue lies in the fact that Alonso managed to overtake four of them to secure second place, and for two days now, there hasn't been a single conversation that doesn't revolve entirely around him.

I find myself wondering, quite simply, what comes next.

People certainly discuss the other drivers as well, though one tends to only perceive exactly what they are looking for, don't they?...

Larry Fox5 said:From a real observer's perspective? 🤦

Didn't he prove he was a top-tier driver back at Toro Rosso? Even a total amateur could see then that the kid is a born champion. It’s just those blind fools over at Ferrari waiting for him to rack up ten more titles before they finally offer him a contract on his way out to retirement.

He had flashes of brilliance, sure, but you can't measure actual quality based solely on moments like that. He isn't the only one who has shown occasional sparks while stuck in mediocre teams.

Let’s be clear: the guy is an out-of-this-world talent, maybe even the best in the world. But if I’m going to make that claim, he needs to prove himself under less than ideal conditions—specifically, outside of his home team and without having the best car on the grid.

But if he really is what he appears to be, so what? He'll leave Red Bull eventually. Actually, he doesn't even have to leave; there's a slim chance Red Bull will even remain this dominant next season.

My skepticism comes from the fact that even with a car like this Red Bull, he had massive gaps in performance and some pretty lackluster drives. And we aren't talking about isolated incidents; the first half of 2009 and the first half of 2011 combined essentially equal a full season of subpar driving... and that’s significant.

steelmaker83 said:My skepticism stems from the fact that when he was in a smaller car, or even during those stretches in this Red Bull where there were significant gaps and rather lackluster performances—and I am not just referring to isolated incidents, mind you—the first half of 2009 combined with the first half of 2011 effectively amounts to an entire season of struggle, which is certainly not a negligible amount of time.

Are you perhaps thinking of 2010? Because in 2011, he absolutely dominated the field.
Every single driver on this grid goes through those inevitable slumps where they simply can't find any results. However, what young Vettel is doing to Webber... well, I truly believe no one else on the starting grid could pull that off. Webber is an incredibly fast driver, particularly when it comes to that single lap. I still vividly remember back when he was pulling off top-tier qualifying laps in that mediocre Jaguar.

graniteharbor502 said:People talk about the other drivers too. But you just see what you want to see...

🙂 More empty rhetoric.

How much have you actually spent talking about anyone else? Maybe 10%? Go ahead, tell me. Who else have you written about, and how often?
The issue is that you and people like you can't stand it when one of us gives Alonso some credit. And he deserves it, in moderation.
What if we actually started praising him based on his real achievements instead of going overboard? 😂

Roger Wright94 said:🙂 Just more empty rhetoric.

How much have I actually spent talking about anyone else? Perhaps ten percent at most? Go ahead, tell me if you disagree. Who else have I written about, and in what volume?
The issue is that people like you find it incredibly difficult to tolerate any of us offering praise to Alonso. And rightly so, provided that praise is measured and deserved.
What would happen if we were to praise him excessively, ignoring his actual merits? 😂

I am certainly not peddling demagoguery here. I have written extensively about Kimi Räikkönen and Sebastian Vettel, I have mentioned Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton, and I even touched upon Damon Hill. Quite recently, I spoke of Mark Webber as well. My only curiosity was regarding why Kimi has earned such an overwhelming amount of negative commentary, especially considering that the driver brought in to replace him hasn't won anything, yet receives nothing but accolades from every corner.

It is simply not true that I cannot stomach praising Alonso; if I recall correctly, I even offered him some credit following the Spanish Grand Prix. After all, the man is a two-time World Champion. However, what truly bothers me is the blatant double standard being applied. If Webber or Vettel delivers a stellar performance, is it suddenly attributed entirely to the car, whereas if Alonso performs well, it is hailed as his individual brilliance? That is where I must take issue.

Regarding the Canadian Grand Prix, Alonso finished in second place, which naturally earns him the distinction of being the second-best driver there. That is a fine achievement in its own right. But one should not diminish Sebastian Vettel's first-place finish, nor should we overlook Webber's fourth-place result. Who is to say that without Gaard, Webber might not have secured second? There are so many variables at play in Formula 1.

John Doe, if his grandmother had been a man, she would have owned that thing and gone by the name John🙂

Douglas Adams15 said:John Doe, if his grandmother had been born male, she would have possessed that specific quality and gone by the name John🙂

Your contribution to this particular debate is truly at an enviable level of profundity, isn't it? If you insist on following that line of logic—that if his grandmother had been male, perhaps Fernando Alonso might have already secured a victory driving for Ferrari—then we are left with nothing but excuses about luck, bad equipment, and various other trivialities.
Lest we forget, Sebastian Vettel won the last three championships, and if there is anyone currently deserving of being elevated or praised, it is undoubtedly him. I could just as easily dismiss everything else as mere trolling.

graniteharbor502 said:Are you thinking of 2010? Because in 2011, he absolutely crushed everyone.
Every driver on the grid goes through slumps where they struggle to score points. But what little Vettel is doing to Webber... I don't think anyone else out there could pull that off. Webber is an incredibly fast driver, especially over a single lap. I still remember when a mediocre Jaguar could actually put him near the front during qualifying.

I completely mixed up the years. I was thinking about 2010 and 2012. In both of those seasons, Webber was either better than or just as good as him by the halfway mark.

graniteharbor502 said:Your contribution to this debate is truly unparalleled. If you really want to go down that road—that if women were men, maybe Fernando Alonso would have actually won something in a Ferrari—then sure, keep blaming luck or bad breaks.
Just a reminder: Sebastian Vettel took the last three championships. If anyone deserves some actual praise right now, it’s him. Anything else could easily be dismissed as trolling.

Everything else is just trolling?

Hmm...

It's not like Vettel cruised through those three titles with total dominance, leaving us nothing left to talk about...

steelmaker83 said:Sometimes you read posts that make you wonder about humanity... anyway, since I have to address this:

One—he’s dealing with a rookie, and based on past experience with those types, he clearly didn't realize how aggressively this kid was defending his spot. Especially considering this was a career-defining moment.

Two—it's the first lap. Tires are still cold. All it takes is one braking error and everything goes to hell.

Three—veterans. Given his reputation, he just waited to see how the kid breathed before elegantly and safely taking him out at the end of the first lap. Losing a second or a second and a half isn't a big deal compared to what could've happened if he tried to muscle the kid at the next chicane and risked some insane defensive move that would've left the rest of the field looking bad.

Four—I feel stupid even explaining this, but you're persistent, so here we go...

Who are you even talking about?🤷
And which kid are you constantly trying to defend Fernando Alonso against when nobody is even attacking him?😕
Did anyone actually say Fernando Alonso did anything wrong or needed to be ejected or whatever?🤷
Did I ever say Fernando Alonso was bad or anything like that?
🤷Good grief, the guy drove an incredible race, so why the need for all this defending when there wasn't even an attack to begin with?

unknown, I'm talking about Valtteri Bottas. 🙂 🙂 🙂
talking about Bottas, who handled everything perfectly alongside Mark Webber, Nico Rosberg, Fernando Alonso, Jean-Éric Vergne, unknown (for those not in the loop, there wasn't even contact, the guy just spun himself), Kimi Räikkönen, Nico Hülkenberg, Sergio Pérez, and Jenson Button.
Even if he was dropping down the order like a stone because his car is a total disaster, he used pure driving skill to hold his own as much as possible without ruining anyone else's race or making a single questionable move.

stormybadger8 said:Who exactly are you talking about?🤷
And which kid is this that feels the need to constantly defend Alonso every single day when nobody is even attacking him?😕
Did anyone actually claim that Fernando Alonso did anything wrong or suggested he should be kicked out or whatever?🤷
Did I ever actually say Alonso was bad, or anything of the sort?
Good grief, he drove an absolute masterclass of a race. I don't see any reason to start playing defense when nobody was even attacking him in the first place.🤷

I'm talking about Valtteri Bottas. 🙂🙂🙂
Look at Valtteri Bottas. He basically played the perfect wingman for everyone from Mark Webber and Nico Rosberg to Fernando Alonso and Jean-Éric Vergne. He even managed to dodge any real contact with Sutcliffe—though if you don't know the story, he just sort of slipped away on his own. Then there's the track record with Kimi Räikkönen, Nico Hülkenberg, Sergio Pérez, and Jenson Button. It was a flawless run.
He plummeted through the standings like a stone because his car was an absolute disaster, but he fought back using pure driving skill. He did everything possible to stay competitive without ruining anyone else's race or making a single questionable move.

Lol. I can't manage to multi-quote right now, but I will eventually. Anyway, you’ve got at least three different posts here praising Bottas's absolute heroism during that first lap.

By the way, he dropped two spots on the launch and lost another one before the first lap was even over. To top it all off, he finished just two positions ahead of his teammate, who also managed to blow a pit stop penalty... quite the display of speed there.

steelmaker83 said:I completely mixed up the years. I meant 2010 and 2012. In both those seasons, Mark Webber was better or at least just as good halfway through.

There's a massive difference between being "better/just as good" and actually not having constant breakdowns and DNFs...🙄
Seriously, does anyone bother explaining to Ferrari fans how Felipe Massa was freaking better than Fernando Alonso from Belgium to Japan back in 2012?🙄

steelmaker83 said:Is everything else just trolling?

Hmm....

It isn't quite as if Sebastian Vettel won all three of those titles with such absolute, crushing dominance that we lack any meaningful ground for debate, is it? One must wonder where the nuance lies...

I was actually called a troll by someone, which is rather unfortunate because I have always been open to a good discussion. Regardless of how he secured them, he won them. And when one takes into account the level of competition he had to contend with, shouldn't we simply tip our hats to him?

stormybadger8 said:There’s a massive distinction between being better or just as good and simply having a car that doesn't constantly break down or force you into early retirements.🙄
Is anyone actually going to explain to the Ferrari fans how much better Felipe Massa was than Fernando Alonso during that stretch from Belgium to Japan back in 2012?🙄

You’re making things up again. Felipe Massa was only actually good—maybe even better than average—in exactly four races during 2012. That is nowhere near half a season. Looking back now, what happened was clearly the result of Ferrari rushing their development in a total panic. It’s obvious they kept throwing updates at Fernando Alonso that simply didn't work, all because they were desperate to snatch the championship at any cost.

stormybadger8 said:Is there not a profound, almost existential distinction between a driver who was simply better, or perhaps merely equal in talent, and one who possessed the sheer, unyielding luck of avoiding mechanical failures and mid-race retirements? One might wonder if we truly grasp the weight of that difference when we look back at the history of the sport.🙄
Is anyone actually taking the time to sit down and explain to the Ferrari fans how Felipe Massa was significantly better than Fernando Alonso during that stretch from Belgium to Japan back in 2012?🙄

He was arguably performing at his absolute peak during those final two races of 2012, though one can't help but wonder if he wasn't being systematically undermined just to ensure he wouldn't have any realistic shot at the championship, don't you think? If we look at the facts, after the German Grand Prix, Fernando Alonso really only had that single standout performance left in him, which was the race in India. It seems quite clear to me that the second half of that season effectively cost him the title. So, I find myself wondering, could someone from the Ferrari fan community please explain to me how they can possibly claim to be satisfied with Alonso's results during that latter portion of the year?

graniteharbor502 said:Someone actually called me a troll. I’m always down for a debate. Regardless of how he picks them, he picks them. Given the level of competition he's dealing with, you have to give him credit.

And honestly, nobody is denying he deserves credit for that. My point is simply that he should probably wait until everything is laid out before jumping to such definitive conclusions.