F1 Montreal GP: June 7-9, 2019

stormybadger8 said:the penalty hits the moment you go off and try to rejoin—especially if someone else has to slam on their brakes or swerve to avoid you...

…

What's actually quite interesting is how quickly the decision on the Vettel case was handed down—it felt almost instantaneous, really.

🤔

Well, everything is finally clear now.
To those of you defending this kind of driving style, I have to ask—just to get you thinking—what does racing even look like if everyone starts driving like this just to avoid going off track?

If you still feel the need to make excuses, then by all means, keep making these kinds of justifications for your favorite driver.

Fair enough.🙂

Nicholas Newman2 said:...

If you’re still digging for excuses, honestly, I hope you keep making these kinds of desperate attempts to defend your favorite driver.

Fair enough.🙂

Are you talking about that Hamilton-Ricciardo situation at Monaco where Ricciardo almost ended up smashed against the barrier?

Robert Cox46 said:Are you talking about that Hamilton-Ricciardo situation in Monaco where Ricciardo almost hit the barrier?

In Monaco 2016, Lewis Hamilton got back on track while Ricciardo was still trailing significantly behind him.

Back at the 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Sebastian Vettel rejoined the track ON THE LEFT SIDE OF HAMILTON'S CAR, not IN FRONT OF him like what happened before.



I know everyone loves playing expert without actually checking the regulations—which are public on formula1.com—but Monaco 2016 and Canada 2019 are only similar because they're both Formula 1 races. Canada was a clear penalty; Monaco wasn't. Maybe try reading the rules once in a while.

Look, I’m not out here defending Sebastian Vettel—he was never really my kind of driver—but just try it in a simulator for a second. If you clip the grass at 124 miles/h and get hit with a massive burst of oversteer, how much control do you actually have over the car for the next hundred meters? Absolutely none. It’s hard for me to pin this on the Ferrari driver. And honestly, what’s even worse is watching people try to break down a driver's movements frame-by-frame in slow motion, when in reality, all that chaos happens in a split second of pure unpredictability.
It just feels wrong to me. This kind of scrutiny goes against the whole spirit of racing, and that should be the one thing that actually matters.

Are you guys seriously still arguing about this? -.-

Four hands just aren't enough.

Robert Cox46 said:It’s not that I’m defending Vettel—he was never really my favorite driver—but if you try to slide onto the grass at 124 miles/h in a sim and fight the oversteer to get back on track, you realize you basically have zero control for the next 100 meters. It feels a bit unfair to blame the Ferrari driver for that. Besides, analyzing driver movements frame-by-frame in slow motion is one thing, but in reality, everything happens in a split second.
This whole approach feels a bit contrary to the spirit of racing. And that ought to be the priority.

Jolyon Palmer column: Why Sebastian Vettel deserved his penalty

Technically speaking, Vettel was in the wrong.

He either pushed another driver wide—OFF The Circuit - Hamilton into The wall on The EXIT of Turn Four—forcing the Mercedes driver to slam on the brakes just to stay out of trouble.

Alternatively, as his defense argued, his momentum simply carried him across the entire track. But if that's the case, he’s still liable for rejoining the circuit in an unsafe manner, since he wasn't in total control, which resulted in Hamilton OFF The Road in an unsafe manner.
One version of this has to be true.

If he was forced into Hamilton, it wasn't safe. If he wasn't, then it was intentional, which isn't fair and warrants a penalty.

You can't argue both sides; you'd need to claim both to dodge the penalty here.

I owe an apology to CS, Testing, and several others on this forum with whom I argued last night regarding Sebastian Vettel.

The guys were right; the penalty for Sebastian Vettel was absolutely deserved. After reviewing the footage from a million different angles today, it’s crystal clear. I might even imply there was intent involved, and what irritates me most is Sebastian Vettel's theatrics over the team radio during the race—that performance is precisely what led me to be unobjective.

It is my conclusion that Sebastian Vettel had sufficient control to leave the gap, and I have determined he was fully aware of Lewis Hamilton's position and chose to close the door intentionally.
The penalty is 100% justified, though I maintain that if it were up to me, I wouldn't have penalized him; I would have ruled it a racing incident, if only for the sake of the championship standings.

It is unfortunate, as Sebastian Vettel buckles under pressure and continues to demonstrate, more times than one can count, that he is mentally fragile. The man clearly snapped, evidenced by his highly questionable actions after the race, such as tampering with the numbers and so on.
I watched Rosberg's perspective later, and I find myself in complete agreement with him.
Rules exist for a reason and must be respected regardless of the circumstances. The stewards had an incredibly difficult and thankless task, but I fear they had to react this way despite knowing the massive amount of negative publicity it would generate.
I sincerely hope Sebastian Vettel can find some mental stability, but my hopes are clearly unfounded.
From Baku to Charlie, and now this—there is simply no reason to remain optimistic.
I like the driver and have found myself sympathizing with him lately, but his erratic behavior has surpassed all reasonable limits.
It seems to me he simply cannot handle this level of pressure.
I also hold Lewis Hamilton somewhat responsible for not speaking his mind directly and for pushing Sebastian Vettel to the edge, likely because he saw how furious Sebastian Vettel was becoming.

In short, had Lewis Hamilton not braked to avoid contact, Charles Leclerc might have been yesterday's winner, which perhaps would have been the best scenario for the championship.

Aside from the fact that Lewis Hamilton is undeniably the faster and better driver at this moment, he undoubtedly possesses much greater mental stability.

There. Once again, my apologies if I offended anyone. I wanted that Ferrari victory solely for the good of the championship; the win didn't happen because of Sebastian Vettel's error, and that is that.

It remains quite clear, and from my side, entirely impartial.

Honestly, mellowtiger83, what’s with all the arguing? I always enjoy chatting with you—even when we're "clashing" 🙂

mellowtiger83 said:what really gets under my skin is how much Sebastian Vettel acts out over the team radio during the race

For me, the funniest part was his childish behavior after the race—you know, messing around with those numbers in front of the car and stuff. 😬

I have to disagree with Jim Clark regarding the speed of the Mercedes-Benz; Bottas’s actual pace on the track tells a completely different story.

As for Lewis Hamilton, he possessed the sheer skill required to stay glued to the Ferrari, much like what we witnessed back in Bahrain.

To me, Bottas and Gasly were the two biggest enigmas of this race. Bottas—mainly because he just seemed to disappear—and Gasly, who I guess spent about a third of the race stuck behind Lance Stroll without any way to make a move. Honestly, Lance was actually pulling away from him at points—he drove a remarkably solid race! 🤷

crimsonhawk23 said:To me, Bottas and Gasly were the two biggest enigmas of this race. Bottas, specifically, because he failed to make any sort of meaningful impact whatsoever. Then there’s Gasly, who apparently spent a third of the race stuck behind Lance Stroll without managing to find a way past him. In fact, Stroll was actually pulling a decent gap on him—Lance drove a remarkably solid race from start to finish. 🤷

Lance Stroll remains a complete enigma to me. As for Valtteri Bottas, I’m hardly surprised; we all saw this kind of downward slide in form coming from a mile away.
To be perfectly honest, Lance Stroll was essentially written off as a driver. He just sort of materialized out of nowhere with this level of performance, which was quite frankly the last thing anyone expected from him.

It is truly a mystery.

I am of the opinion that this was his career-defining drive.

Gasly? I honestly don't even know what to say. He's just far too slow compared to Max Verstappen. There’s a massive gap there, much too large for him to justify staying with Red Bull Racing, and frankly, I'm seeing absolutely no signs of progress on that front.

Robert Cox46 said:Are you talking about that Hamilton-Ricciardo situation in Monaco where Ricciardo almost hit the barrier?

Even if the situations were identical, why do we always have to pull those kinds of "arguments"? So many people insist on this way of thinking. If civilization had actually progressed, would we still be behaving like this? A cycle of blood feuds would never end. We wouldn't see progress in anything, even the most trivial matters.
It’s that typical mindset where someone thinks, "My life is falling apart, so I'll feel better if I see my neighbor losing their mind too."

The real issue here is flying under the radar: the fact that Vettel is clearly at fault. For those of you who loved mocking Lewis, the Vettel or Ferrari fans have come back at you like heavy equipment boomerangs.

Malice is what poisons society today; it spares no one. Some of us fight against it tooth and nail, while others surrender to their lowest impulses and then loudly mock the first group for being "too sensitive." Honestly, what happened to us?🙂🙂🙂

I truly feel for the sincere, well-meaning Vettel and Ferrari fans.

crimsonhawk23 said:For me, Valtteri Bottas and Pierre Gasly are the two biggest enigmas of this race. Bottas because he basically did absolutely nothing, and Gasly because he spent what felt like a third of the race stuck behind Lance Stroll and couldn't find a way past. Honestly, Stroll was even pulling away from him at points (Lance drove a hell of a race!) 🤷

Bottas started out on slower tires than everyone else around him, which pretty much killed his start—plus, Renault actually stepped up their engine game and they were looking seriously fast on the straights. They were good enough that neither Mercedes nor Red Bull Racing could catch them easily until Max Verstappen showed up with fresher, faster rubber than Hulkenberg and Ricciardo. Renault has been promising big things for ages, but they finally delivered. Also, overtaking in this era of Formula 1 is damn near impossible, especially if your brakes start overheating (just look at what happened to Norris), so Bottas' entire first stint was a wash... he basically lost the race during qualifying. Everything after that was just damage control; there was no point in pushing hard since the top three had already checked out. After that mess in Monaco and this disaster in qualifying, I wonder if he can even get his head back in the game... I’m not holding my breath. He needed a string of solid results to build momentum, but that wave is starting to dry up... maybe I'm wrong.

As for Gasly, he basically landed in the Red Bull Racing seat a year too early. He claims he’s got the car down, but let’s be real, Red Bull Racing isn't exactly a healthy environment unless you're the golden boy. And he isn't. Max is everything to them.

crimsonhawk23 said:��

Why are you acting surprised?
Look, whether it was Max's move in Monaco or that first Red Bull Racing incident where Valtteri Bottas took heavy damage, it was blindingly obvious they deserved a penalty. They should’ve handed it out instantly—and a much harsher one at that. Instead, they dragged it out forever...

Besides, like I said, we need the same set of refs for every race—people with actual common sense who can see past their own noses for once.

Look, I'm not disputing the rulebook. By the book, yeah, it's a penalty.
But to completely wreck a heart-stopping finish during an era where we’ve been starving for actual wheel-to-wheel battles? Only people who are totally lost in space and time make calls like that...

If they had even a shred of brains or tact, the penalty would have looked like this:
They tell Ferrari that Vettel needs to hand the position back to Lewis within three laps or face a 5-second penalty...
Then we actually get to watch a chase until the end, just with the roles reversed—Vettel hunting down Lewis...
It would still be controversial, sure, but it wouldn't alienate every single fan on the planet from their screens or ruin what could have been a killer race.
Instead, it would have pumped up the crowd in the stands and everyone watching at home...

Personally, I fell in love with Formula 1 as a kid just by stumbling onto Monaco 1992 and seeing that duel between Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell. I was literally glued to the screen... 😁 nowadays, that would be absolutely impossible.
Because Senna would’ve finished that race in twelfth place (since only twelve cars actually finished...), because he would've picked up a penalty at every other turn for blocking, moving under braking, shoving, blah, blah, blah—5, 10, 25 seconds... who knows, maybe he would've racked up enough penalties to finish behind the guys who were 20 laps down. 🤣

And no, I wasn't rooting for Senna; I was pulling for Mansell...
After a race like that, where I'm watching my guy Mansell fight tooth and nail against Senna, only to see him "win" because of some invisible officials? It would leave a bitter taste in my mouth.
And it’d be pretty damn hard to keep watching a sport like that. My chances of staying interested would be basically zero.

Nicholas Newman2 said:Finally, everything makes sense.
To all of you defending this kind of defensive driving: just imagine what racing will actually look like if everyone starts driving like this every time they spin off the track.

If you still have excuses, please, keep making these kinds of arguments to protect your favorite driver.

Fair enough.🙂

It's obvious 🙂

What else is there to do besides making up nonsense or trying to twist the rules to stop the fans from losing their minds?
Analyzing this stuff is honestly a joke. At the end of the day, Vettel didn't get penalized for his specific move...
He could have done pretty much anything when rejoining the track, so what then?

Vettel clearly got hit because of Lewis—specifically because Lewis:
A.) braked
B.) avoided Vettel

If Lewis wasn't there, there wouldn't have been a penalty, regardless of whatever Vettel was doing...
Also, if Lewis hadn't braked, hadn't avoided Vettel, and most importantly, if Mercedes hadn't filed a protest, there wouldn't have been a penalty anyway...

So, stop coming up with this mindless speculation.
Even without this analysis, Vettel would've still been penalized. That's just how the rules work, and nobody is disputing that...
And those rules don't say a single word about "intent" or "deliberately pushing."
For one simple reason: you can never prove intent with 100% certainty. It’ll always be "maybe he did, maybe he didn't"...

The real issue is why such a rule even exists.
Honestly, as long as there isn't a massive wreck, there shouldn't be a penalty. If there *is* a wreck, then the penalty should be heavy...
Then you can drive however you want, just watch out whether you want to crash or not...

As a fan, I want to see real wheel-to-wheel combat, down to the wire...
Not 1,500 overtakes using DRS, and not overtakes where a driver just politely moves over because the rulebook says so...
I want to see gritty defensive driving and aggressive attacking, not drivers acting like lawyers, worrying about penalties instead of just focusing on speed and driving. ☕
Sure, if things go south and Lewis closes the door on Vettel, I'll yell "Penalty! Give him a penalty!" but that's part of the fun and the passion of being a fan...
It certainly won't be "Go Seb, hit the DRS button, what a beautiful overtake!" followed by "Oh wait, he gets a 5-second penalty, so he basically won anyway." ☕

stormybadger8 said:Vettel was clearly penalized because of Lewis—specifically because Lewis:
A.) braked
B.) avoided Vettel

If Lewis hadn't been there, there wouldn't have been a penalty, regardless of what Vettel was doing...
Also, if Lewis hadn't braked, hadn't avoided Vettel, and most importantly, if Mercedes hadn't filed an appeal, there still wouldn't have been a penalty...

I’m not sure if you realized this, but...
you just listed all the exact reasons why Vettel deserved the penalty.

Robert Cox46 said:Look, I’m not out here defending Sebastian Vettel. I’ve never even been a fan of his. But just try it yourself on a sim. Try hitting the grass at 124 miles mph and then fighting the oversteer to get back on track. How much control do you actually have over the car for the next 100 meters? Absolutely none. It’s hard for me to pin this on the Ferrari driver. And honestly, I hate seeing people break down footage frame by frame to analyze a driver's movements when, in real life, all of this happens unpredictably in just a second or two.
This whole way of looking at things isn't what racing is about. That should be the most important thing.

Then explain to me how Vettel suddenly regained total control of the car the moment Hamilton closed the door, after apparently having zero control just a second before.

Nico Rosberg, Jolyon Palmer, and Jolyon Palmer all agreed—the penalty was absolutely justified. It wasn’t just some snap judgment made right during the race or immediately after the checkered flag; they waited until they had actually sat down and scrutinized all the evidence.

And then there's Marc:

Nicholas Newman2 said:... What everyone is missing here is the big picture: Sebastian Vettel is just making mistakes on purpose. For those of you who loved mocking Lujo, it seems like the "Team Vettel" or "Ferrari" crowd came swinging back at you like heavy equipment hitting a boomerang ...

Clearly that logic isn't working. The Mercedes camp and the endless parade of Vettel haters are watching this stuff like hawks. Sometimes I get the feeling they just can't catch a break ...

Now, let's look at New York City 2019.
Sebastian Vettel made a driving error, sure, and he was under pressure. A braking mistake—nothing groundbreaking, no actual damage done.
But Lewis Hamilton absolutely smoked them. He made at least three identical, nearly identical mistakes. And that’s not even counting the mess on Friday.

And somehow, that's the "main thing" to you? Sebastian Vettel's mistake? Fine, whatever...
To me, it's much weirder that someone can walk away with a win after making that many mistakes.