Pros and Cons of Sebastian Vettel

silvercobra68 said:The patriots are getting worked up again. Big deal. What happens now? Are we about to get invaded by some foreign power too?🤣 😠

What are you even on?😕

stormybadger8 said:Yeah, I agree, Jenson Button has a shot. With a Red Bull, he’d be consistently picking up points, grabbing third, fourth, or fifth places, and maybe even snagging a win here and there if the competition messes up. He might even end up with a title. He’s probably one of the most consistent drivers out there. Sure, he won't win every week unless the car is in a league of its own, but he'll always be scoring. It's rare to see him outside the top ten or dropping out of a race. He's the perfect number two, but also pretty dangerous for a lead driver. If someone drives like Lewis Hamilton and keeps making silly mistakes, Button will be right there to exploit it.👍

I'd say he's sitting right on that line between the elite tier and the rest of the pack. He just waits for the guys at the top to trip up, and then he strikes.

There's a lot of philosophy and guesswork going on here.
How can you lump a guy into that specific category and still think he actually has a shot at being champion? Of course anyone has a chance, but how much of one?

stormybadger8 said:Yeah, I agree, Jenson Button has a shot. With a Red Bull, he’d be consistently picking up points, grabbing third, fourth, or fifth places, and maybe even snagging a win here and there if the competition messes up. He might even end up with a title,he's definitely maybe the most consistent driver,not that he'll win constantly unless the car is a class above everyone else,but he'll grab points regularly and it's hard to find him outside the top 10 or seeing him retire,perfect as a number two driver...

Fernando Alonso is the most consistent. Besides, in a boring race with inferior equipment, he'd beat Button any day.

silvercobra68 said:Here we go again. The usual crowd is all worked up over nothing. What is it this time? Did someone lose their footing down south or something?🤣😠

To silvercobra68! 👍 I appreciate that level of clarity.

urbanowl96 said:.
Who do you think Montoya would pin the blame on after slamming into a wall (assuming he doesn't hit anything else first)?

What kind of question is that? Michael Schumacher, obviously. And David Coulthard too, I guess... though one would just be making fun of him while Montoya actually thought he was being serious.

Roger Wright94 said:Fernando Alonso is just built different when it comes to consistency. Plus, in some boring race where the car isn't even that great, he’s still gonna outdrive Jenson Button.

Look, Fernando Alonso is easily the most consistent guy and probably the best driver on the grid 95% of the time... but I get the feeling that unlike his championship years, he’s throwing some yellow laps lately. Like, he lets his emotions get the better of him sometimes and loses focus...

stormyviper11 said:What kind of question is that? Michael Schumacher, obviously. David Coulthard would be up there too, though he'd probably just make a joke out of it, whereas Juan Pablo Montoya would actually mean it.

😂

Roger Wright94 said:That's for silvercobra68! 👍 I love this kind of clarity.

Am I missing something?😕 Some kind of weird chemistry...😁

stormyviper11 said:Let's put it this way:

So, are we really saying that the championship title comes down to whether or not some drivers can smash their cars through a solid stone wall? Seriously?

Honestly, Michael Schumacher would have probably rounded up a whole crew of people just to help him hoist his car over a wall—and then he’d actually go right ahead and hop over it himself.
So, Jenson Button was basically trying to coordinate his crew to move the car, but—get this—he actually slipped and wiped out himself! Honestly, if he didn't end up breaking a leg, he definitely went right over the wall.
Honestly, Lewis Hamilton basically drove full throttle straight into a wall just trying to force a pass—and then had the nerve to blame the wall for the crash!
Sebastian Vettel would probably throw himself against a wall and then spend the rest of the night tearfully apologizing to the crew and the fans for being such an idiot.
Fernando Alonso would probably just round up a whole crew of people and find some way to scale that wall—but honestly, every third or fourth time I tried, I’d just lose my mind waiting around and end up trying to tear the damn thing down myself.
Felipe Massa would've just burst into tears right in Pete Bonnington's arms—he wouldn't have even bothered trying to clear that wall.
The rest of them wouldn't even know which way to turn, let alone find a way through—though maybe Robert Kubica or Nico Rosberg could actually figure it out.
It’s like if Rubens Barrichello spent all that energy trying to scale some massive wall, only to get to the top and realize someone else had already cleared it before him.

stormyviper11 said:Kimi Raikkonen would’ve probably just knocked back a liter of vodka, decided he wasn't really feeling it anymore, and headed off to find some other walls to jump over.

urbanowl96 said:.
It’s actually pretty interesting to look at the championship from a completely different angle like that. I wonder—if Juan Pablo Montoya hadn't slammed into the wall, who do you think he would've pointed the finger at? It's always someone's fault, right?

So, some guy over on the Autosport forums was busy yesterday putting together a deep dive into driver stats—specifically looking at the percentage of retirements caused by collisions, incidents, and running off track (all based on official FIA Data).

It doesn't count any incidents where they didn't actually end up retiring—so, yeah, that makes for a pretty interesting list...

Fernando Alonso: 4.2%
Robert Kubica: 6.5%
Lewis Hamilton: 7.0%
Felipe Massa: 8.4%
Kimi Raikkonen: 9.0%
Nico Rosberg: 9.3%
Jenson Button: 9.7%
Timo Glock: 10.0%
Heikki Kovalainen: 10.7%
Mark Webber: 11.2%
Juan Pablo Montoya: 11.7%
Sebastian Vettel: 12.5%
Takuma Sato: 14.4%
Speed: 21.4%
Vitantonio Liuzzi: 22.4%
Adrian Sutil: 24.6%
Nelson Piquet Jr: 25.0%

shadowtinker29 said:Just yesterday, some guy over on the Autosport forums put together a little statistical breakdown of specific drivers. He looked at the percentage of retirements caused specifically by collisions, incidents, and running off track (based on official FIA Data)...

It doesn't factor in incidents that didn't actually end in a retirement. It’s a rather telling list...

Fernando Alonso: 4.2%
Robert Kubica: 6.5%
Lewis Hamilton: 7.0%
Felipe Massa: 8.4%
Kimi Raikkonen: 9.0%
Nico Rosberg: 9.3%
Jenson Button: 9.7%
Timo Glock: 10.0%
Heikki Kovalainen: 10.7%
Mark Webber: 11.2%
Juan Pablo Montoya: 11.7%
Sebastian Vettel: 12.5%
Takuma Sato: 14.4%
Speed: 21.4%
Vitantonio Liuzzi: 22.4%
Adrian Sutil: 24.6%
Nelson Piquet Jr: 25.0%

There is something deeply fascinating about this data. 🙏

It’d be pretty interesting to see what specific timeframe they’re actually looking at here.
For instance, Jenson Button has a pretty rough track record on paper, but you really have to look at his stats once he actually matured as a driver. Or better yet, look at his numbers specifically during the years he had a decent car... because honestly, a huge chunk of his "solid" results probably just came from him fighting through the pack in the first lap after starting mid-field. And let's not forget that back in 2007 and 2008, the guy was stuck in one of the absolute worst cars on the grid, which basically forced him into those messy situations more often. That also explains why Lewis Hamilton seems so much more "incident-free" by comparison—he just wasn't stuck in the back of the pack nearly as much.

I remember digging through some old stats for legendary drivers a while back, and it blew my mind how Emerson Fittipaldi managed to go through about 150 races—if I'm remembering that right—in an era that was absolutely wild and full of crashes, and only ended up out due to a spin or a collision four times. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Fangio never once dropped out because of something like that (though, granted, he did have that serious wreck during qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix in '52)... which just drives home my point that he truly was the Greatest of All Time.

stormyviper11 said:It’d be interesting to see what timeframe we're actually talking about here.
For example, Jenson Button has a pretty rough stat sheet, but it would be worth looking at how he fared once he actually matured—or even just focusing on the seasons where he had a decent car. A huge chunk of his stats probably comes from just fighting through traffic in the back of the pack, and let's not forget that back in 2007 and 2008, the guy was stuck in one of the absolute worst cars on the grid, which naturally leaves you wide open for those kinds of incidents. That also explains why Lewis Hamilton looks relatively "clean" by comparison; he rarely had to spend his Sundays grinding through the back of the field.

I remember digging into stats for old-school drivers once. It blew my mind that Emerson Fittipaldi—if I recall correctly, out of roughly 150 races during a wilder era of F1—only finished out of a race due to a crash or spin four times. Meanwhile, Fangio, if I'm not mistaken, didn't DNF for something like that even once (granted, he had that serious accident during qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix in 1952). It just reinforces my belief that he was the Greatest of All Time.

Well, that applies to everyone else too. This whole stat sheet looks pretty poorly put together to me; if you wanted to kill him, you'd just add up all the mechanical failures.

Plus, obviously, drivers who are just starting their careers and were stuck in junk cars early on can't exactly boast great stats. Over time, those percentages are only going to drop.

Take Adrian Sutil, for instance—he's sitting way too high on this list, and I can't even think of a single incident where he was actually at fault. 🤷

If anything, all I remember is Kimi Raikkonen knocking Sutil out of some really solid races.😢

Roger Wright94 said:That's for silvercobra68! 👍 I love this level of clarity.

Exactly🙂 looks like we're on the same page👍

stormyviper11 said:It would be quite interesting to see which specific timeframe this covers.
For instance, Jenson Button has a relatively poor statistical record, yet one should really examine his performance during his mature years, or perhaps look at how things change if we only count the seasons where he actually had a competitive car. It’s highly probable that a significant portion of his data comes from fighting through the pack after being stuck in the back, and let us not forget that in 2007 and 2008, the man was driving one of the absolute worst cars on the grid, which naturally left him more vulnerable to those kinds of incidents. This also helps explain Lewis Hamilton's comparative lack of incidents; the fellow rarely found himself languishing at the back of the field.

I remember looking at statistics for former drivers some time ago. I found it fascinating that Emerson Fittipaldi, during a rather wild era of Formula 1 spanning roughly 150 races—if my memory serves—only finished out of a race due to spinning or crashing four times. Meanwhile, I believe Fangio never once retired due to such a thing (though he did suffer a serious accident during qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix in 1952), which only reinforces my conviction that he was the Greatest of All Time and the most complete driver to ever sit in a cockpit.

Yes, I have come across that statistic regarding Fittipaldi elsewhere, and it truly is compelling, particularly when you consider he spent a good chunk of his career in subpar machinery.
If you are referring to Fangio's accident where he broke his neck, that wasn't the Italian Grand Prix, but rather a Monza Grand Prix or something similar—likely a non-championship race. Furthermore, I don't believe it happened during qualifying, but rather during the race itself. In any case, Fangio never once retired from a championship race because of his own error, and over his entire career of about 200 races, I only know of two accidents involving him. Besides that one, there was another during a race akin to today's Dakar Rally, where his co-driver was killed (though I know little else about that particular tragedy). That accident was precisely why he almost never utilized co-drivers during the Mille Miglia or the Carrera Panamericana.

urbanowl96 said:Yeah, I’ve spotted that stat about Fittipaldi somewhere before and it’s honestly wild, especially when you consider he spent a huge chunk of his career grinding in some seriously subpar machinery.
If you’re talking about that crash where Fangio broke his neck, that wasn't at the Italian Grand Prix, it was some Monza Grand Prix or something similar—basically just an exhibition race. And if I remember right, it wasn't during qualifying, it happened right in the middle of the race itself. Anyway, the thing about Fangio is that he never once DNF'd a championship race because of his own mistake, and looking back over his entire career—200 races total—I only know of two major accidents he was in. Besides this one, there was that one during a race similar to today's Dakar Rally, where his co-driver died (though I don't know much else about that specific wreck). That accident is actually why he almost never ran with a co-driver in the Mille Miglia or the Carrera Panamericana...

That was a massive race stretching across basically all of South America, and they went off the road somewhere up north in Bolivia or Peru, and the co-driver lost his life. It haunted Fangio for the rest of his days.

The whole thing at Monza was basically down to exhaustion. He’d been racing in Ireland just the day before and had an arrangement with Prince Beer to fly him out on a private jet, but Beer bailed early. He didn't want to wait around, so he just took off without him. Because of the weather, flights were grounded all over Europe, so Fangio was stuck bouncing between airports trying to find any way to get moving. He eventually wound up in Lyon, borrowed a car, and drove himself to Monza just before things kicked off. Right after the start, he hit that brutal accident and broke his neck. For the rest of his life, he couldn't even turn his head fully to one side—to the right, I think—more than a few degrees. And yet, even with a handicap like that, the guy still managed to snag four more championships...

Honestly, the answer to that legendary debate is pretty simple: the more you learn about Fangio, the more obvious it becomes that every other driver who ever lived, regardless of what they won or achieved, can only really stand there and give him a deep bow of respect. 🙂

stormyviper11 said:It was a grueling race that spanned nearly the entirety of South America. Somewhere up north, around the borders of Bolivia or Peru, they went off the track, resulting in a fatal accident for the co-driver—an event that haunted Fangio for the rest of his life.

Yes, I am well aware that those races were incredibly long and quite exhausting to follow. 6215 milesIt was comparable to the distance covered in the Dakar Rally, all while navigating those vintage pre-war vehicles.

stormyviper11 As I have previously observed:
What happened at the Monza Grand Prix was essentially a direct consequence of pure exhaustion. Just twenty-four hours prior, he had been racing in Ireland, and he’d actually arranged for Prince Beer to fly him out on a private jet. Unfortunately, Beer backed out early; he wasn't willing to wait around, so he simply took off without him. To make matters worse, the weather was so abysmal that flights were grounded across much of the United States. Fangio ended up struggling through various airports just trying to catch any available flight, eventually landing in Lyon. From there, he actually borrowed a car and drove himself all the way to Monza just before the race began. Immediately after the start, he suffered that horrific accident that resulted in a broken neck. For the rest of his life, he couldn't turn his head to one side—to the right, if I recall correctly—by more than a few degrees. Yet, even with such a debilitating handicap, he still managed to secure four more championship titles.

I recall hearing that Fangio and another driver actually made the trip to Lyon together, at which point the other fellow lent him his car, allowing Fangio to finish the leg to Monza on his own. There is also something about that right-hand turn that just doesn't sit right with me; even during the Mille Miglia, he ended up taking second place in a vehicle that didn't struggle with those right-hand bends.😁

stormyviper11 said:To be perfectly honest, the conclusion of that all-time classic thread is actually quite simple: the more you learn about Fangio, the more obvious it becomes that every other driver who ever lived—regardless of what they accomplished or how many trophies they collected—can do nothing more than stand up and offer him their deepest respect. 🙂

I find myself in complete agreement here. I haven't encountered so many fascinating tidbits about any other driver that would lead me to genuinely consider them one of the greatest to ever sit in a cockpit.

Hamilton in one sentence: After Sebastian Vettel, there was Sebastian Vettel.😁

They can't build cars durable enough to survive what these two can destroy.

stormyviper11 said:That race spanned almost the entirety of South America, and somewhere up in Bolivia or Peru, they went off the track, resulting in the co-driver's death—something that haunted Fangio for the rest of his life.

What happened at Indianapolis, however, was purely a matter of exhaustion. Just a day prior, he had competed in a race in Ireland and had arranged to fly out via Prince Bir’s private jet. But Bir backed out early; the driver wasn't about to sit around waiting, so he just took off without him. Because of the terrible weather, flights were grounded across much of Europe, leaving Fangio stranded at various airports trying to catch any flight possible. He eventually managed to make it to Lyon, borrowed a car, and drove himself to Indianapolis just before the race began. Right after the start, he suffered that horrific accident that broke his neck. For the rest of his life, he couldn't turn his head more than a few degrees to one side (to the right, if I recall correctly). Yet, even with such a massive handicap, he still managed to secure four more championship titles.

In truth, the points discussed in that all-time legendary thread are quite simple: the more you learn about Fangio, the more obvious it becomes that every other driver, regardless of their accolades or achievements, can do nothing but stop and offer him their deepest respect. 🙂

🙏🙏🙏

silvercobra68 said:Exactly.🙂 I guess we're on the same page here.👍

Alright, then walk me through it. What's actually going on? Either you're pulling me into some inside joke I'm clearly missing out on, or things are getting a little too shady for my liking.☕

Michael Diaz4 said:Then why don't you explain what's actually going on? You're pulling me into some drama I don't understand, or maybe there's some actual shady business involved here.☕

There is nothing going on between us, absolutely nothing—it's all just baseless insinuation😉. And you can rest easy; we aren't looking to bring you into our circle anyway🤷

Besides, Mark Webber just ate Fettel alive again, which means my comparison to Jacques Villeneuve was actually a massive stretch; Fettel is looking more and more like Rubens Barrichello every day.