Pros and Cons of Sebastian Vettel

stormybadger8 said:🤦

Has Fernando Alonso completely lost it, or what?
Someone please explain to me when exactly the McLaren was ever a worse car than the Toro Rosso.🙂
And since when was an STR capable of consistently grabbing 6th place?🤣

If this is actually a direct quote from him, then 🤦 he’s clearly out of his mind.
Look, I get that fans say stupid things, but hearing an F1 driver spout nonsense like this just doesn't sit right with me.🤷

I really hope this is just some fabrication by the Spanish press, or maybe just a bad translation by the local media here in the States.

We should probably wait before jumping to any final conclusions.
I'm still undecided on Sebastian Vettel. As for Alonso, I formed an opinion about him last year that has been heavily reinforced—and even more so this season.

I have a pretty firm stance on Jenson Button.
As for Lewis Hamilton, well, this year has been a bit of a struggle for him. I think he's worth more, but... I don't know. Next year will tell us everything.

Sebastian Vettel is still young. Who knows how things will look when he turns 29 and what kind of positions he'll be fighting for then.

It pains me to say this, but Fernando Alonso has a point here...
Of course, I’m not at all questioning Sebastian Vettel's raw talent, but we have to look at the reality of the situation. He secured those two championships while driving a dominant machine, yet just a year prior, he lost out on the title despite being in a car that was arguably the fastest on the track for more than half the season. Sure, he managed a win in that Toro Rosso during that rain-soaked race, but extraordinary weather conditions can produce outliers. Even someone like Oliver Panis managed to pull off a victory in Monaco starting from 14th place while driving a Ligier. Therefore, I don't believe we can definitively claim that Sebastian Vettel is a generational talent in a subpar car based solely on that one outlier result.

William Bennett53 said:I hate to say it, but Alonso’s got a point...
Look, I’m not questioning Sebastian Vettel's talent, but let's be real. He won two titles in a dominant car, and the year before that, he lost the championship in a car that was the fastest on track for more than half the season. Sure, he won that rainy race in his Toro Rosso, but anything can happen in freak weather. Even Oliver Panis managed a win in Monaco from 14th place in a Ligier. So, I don't think we can look at that one single win and claim Sebastian Vettel is a god even in a mediocre car.

🙂

Were you even watching F1 2007 and 2008? That guy was incredible in that STR. Monza wasn't just luck; it was the cherry on top.😍
He drove phenomenally in 2008. 🙏

I don't get how everyone has such selective memory.🙂
Bringing up Lewis Hamilton in the context of driving a "bad" car is an insult to about 80% of the drivers on the grid and 80% of the teams.

Driving for McLaren is a privilege. That car is always a winner, capable of points and podiums. Calling it a bad car is ridiculous.🙄

Between 2007 and 2011, McLaren was never—and I mean never—a car that couldn't consistently score points or fight for wins and podiums, not even in 2009.

If I saw Di Resta in a McLaren, or Sergio Perez and Sergio Kobayashi in a Ferrari, while Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso were stuck in an STR or a Sauber, then maybe they could all sing together about how great they are at winning in junk cars.☕

stormybadger8 said:🙂

Did you even watch F1 2007 and 2008? That Vettel was absolutely brilliant in that STR; it wasn't just about Monza—Monza was simply the icing on the cake.😍
He drove phenomenally in 2008. 🙏

I honestly don't understand how everyone can possess such selective memory.🙂
Bringing up Hamilton in the context of driving a subpar car is an insult to at least 80% of the drivers on the grid and 80% of the teams.

Driving for McLaren is a privilege, and that car is always a solid machine capable of scoring points and reaching podiums; what on earth do you mean by "bad car"?🙄

Between 2007 and 2011, McLaren was never, ever a car that wasn't capable of regularly scoring points, grabbing a podium, or even taking a win during a season—not even in 2009.

If I were to see Di Resta in a McLaren, or Perez and Sergio Kobayashi in a Ferrari, while Hamilton and Alonso headed off to STR or Sauber, then perhaps we could all sit back and listen to them sing praises about their ability to win in mediocre cars.☕

I didn't even mention Hamilton...
Vettel was good in Toro Rosso, sure, but then again, Sutil was good in Force India, Perez was decent in Sauber, and even Kovalainen did well in Lotus. However, all of Vettel's truly top-tier results—with the exception of that single victory—came while he was in the fastest car on the track. What I am actually looking forward to seeing, and what will likely happen eventually, is a season where Newey doesn't engineer a dominant beast, allowing Ferrari and McLaren to be at least equals. That is when we will truly know what Vettel is worth. It is much like what we saw just this year regarding what Jenson Button is actually worth: a season where he had the incredibly fast Hamilton right next to him in the same car, while that very car remained the second fastest on the circuit all season long.
I am convinced that Vettel would prove himself a great champion under those conditions as well, but I maintain that we have yet to see those specific conditions manifest.

William Bennett53 said:I didn't even mention Hamilton...
Sebastian Vettel was impressive during his stint at Toro Rosso, but let’s be honest—Sutil held his own at Force India, Perez looked solid in that Sauber, and even Kovalainen managed to make an impact over at Lotus... Let’s be honest, almost all of Sebastian Vettel's results were achieved while driving the absolute fastest car on the grid, with that one solitary victory being the only real outlier... What I’m truly looking forward to—assuming it actually happens once in a blue moon—is a season where Newey fails to engineer some absolute monster of a car, finally allowing Ferrari and McLaren to stand on equal footing... That is when we will finally see what Sebastian Vettel is actually worth. It’s just like what we witnessed this year regarding Jenson Button: we finally saw his true level during the season he had a lightning-fast Lewis Hamilton right next to him in the exact same car, while that machine was consistently sitting as the second fastest on the grid...
I’m convinced that even under those specific circumstances, Sebastian Vettel will prove himself to be a true champion, though I must point out that we haven't actually witnessed those conditions firsthand yet...

Fifth place in Monaco, Belgium, and Singapore? And then sixth in Japan and Valencia...

Fourth in Brazil...?

Everything is falling apart at TR...

James Smith50 said:Fifth in Monaco, Belgium, and Singapore? Sixth in Japan and Valencia?

Fourth in Brazil?

All within TR.

Back when he finished fourth in China, was that same Liuzzi car actually capable of sixth place? Given that Liuzzi barely manages to stay relevant in the mid-field, that car clearly wasn't the junk people claim it to be. Even Bourdais, who was a complete washout in F1 back in 2008, managed to pull off a sixth-place finish in that exact same chassis.
Since I firmly believe both Buemi and Alguersuari are significantly better drivers than Bourdais ever were, I can only conclude that Toro Rosso was at least as competitive during those two years as they are being this season.

William Bennett53 said:Back in China, when he finished fourth, Liuzzi was sitting in sixth using that exact same car... and considering we all know Liuzzi barely scrapes by as a mid-tier driver at best, that machine clearly wasn't the junk everyone claims it was. Even Bourdais, who was an absolute disaster in F1 back in 2008, managed to grab a sixth-place finish in that very same car.
Since I'm convinced both Buemi and Alguersuari are significantly more talented drivers than Bourdais ever was, my only logical conclusion is that the Toro Rosso was just as competitive during those two years as it is this season.

So tell me then, what kind of results is Vettel expected to pull out of the TR car with his twenty-one years of experience?

That’s like people telling me Koba should be fighting for fifth or sixth place this season... I mean, seriously, how on earth is that even possible?

William Bennett53 said:I didn't even mention Hamilton...
Vettel was solid at Toro Rosso, sure, but so were Sutil at Force India, Perez at Sauber, or even Kovalainen at Lotus. But let's be real: all of Vettel's top-tier results—aside from that one win—came when he was driving the fastest car on the grid. What I’m actually looking forward to—if it ever actually happens—is a season where Newey doesn't build some absolute monster, leaving Ferrari and McLaren to actually fight on level ground. That's when we'll see what Vettel is really worth. It's just like what we saw this year with Button: we finally saw his true value during a season where he had a lightning-fast Hamilton in the same car, and that car was consistently the second-fastest on the track all year long.
I'm convinced Vettel would still prove himself a champion under those conditions, but we haven't seen them yet.

😲
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Fo...season#Drivers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Fo...vers_standings

How on earth are you comparing Sutil to Vettel? For crying out loud, Vettel drove that STR better this season than Schumacher, Rosberg, or Massa did in their respective years. He drove it way better than Alonso did in that General Motors car back in '09.

And don't forget 2007. He grabbed his first podium, but Hamilton completely screwed him over there. I'll never let him live that down. 😠

stormybadger8 said:I’d love to see what the rest of the lineup looks like at Ferrari—imagine having Sergio Perez and Kobayashi in there alongside Lewis Hamilton. Wouldn't that be something? If both Alonso and his teammate end up at Toro Rosso or Williams, they might as well just sit there and sing songs about how they can win in mediocre cars.

What are you even talking about?

The 2008 season?

What about the '03 season? Or maybe '04? How about '09?

Look, we’re talking about a driver who hasn't missed a podium in nine seasons. Just think about that.

William Bennett53 said:Back in China, when he finished fourth, Vitantonio Liuzzi was 6th in that exact same car. Since we all know Liuzzi barely scrapes by as an average driver, that car clearly wasn't total junk. Burdais, who was a complete washout in NASCAR, actually managed to hit 6th in that same machine back in 2008.
Since I'm pretty sure both Sebastien Buemi and Jaime Alguersari are way better drivers than Burdais, my conclusion is simple: Toro Rosso was at least as strong during those two years as they are this year.

Do some actual research. Burdais only scored points twice in his entire NASCAR career, and that was a 7th place finish in a race where only six drivers even made it to the finish line.😬

That 7th place was basically his ceiling. Here’s a link to the guy, just in case you think he's a complete loser—if he were, he wouldn't have stacked up all those titles in other series.☕
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9bastien_Bourdais

Liuzzi, Speedway, Burdais, Buemi, and Alguersari across the 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 seasons combined for a total of 28 points.
And keep in mind, that includes the 2010 season when they changed the points system so ten drivers started scoring.
If we used the old scoring system for that season, those five drivers in that Toro Rosso over four years would have only pulled in 16 points combined.😳
If you apply that old system to this current season too, you'd add another 9 points (Alguersari +7 and Buemi +2).
So, the grand total for every driver in Toro Rosso (except Vettel) from 2007 until now is 27 points.

Vettel pulled 35 points out of that Toro Rosso 2008 alone.😳

Stop talking nonsense.🙂

Jason Campbell70 said:What are you even talking about?

The '08 season?

What about '03? '04? '09?

Look, we're talking about a driver who’s been hitting podiums consistently over the last nine seasons.

Who says he didn't?
Jarno Trulli was grabbing podiums in that exact same car back in '03 and '04—he even snagged a win in it.
That car was anything but a bottom-feeder; it was right up there with a modern Ferrari, or at the very least, a Mercedes.

I'm not saying Alonso is bad or that he couldn't grab podiums and wins in a worse car.
Of course he could. He’s proven that plenty of times. Especially in 2008 and 2009, though he was damn good in '03 and '04 too.

But Sebastian Vettel proved the same thing, while Lewis Hamilton didn't.
McLaren wasn't even close to being as bad as the Renault 2008, let alone the STR 2008 or the Renault 2009.☕

stormybadger8 said:Sebastian Vettel proved the same thing, but Lewis Hamilton didn't.
Ferrari was never a worse car than the Renault 2008, let alone compared to the Toro Rosso 2008 or the Renault 2009.☕

Look, I’m not talking about Hamilton. 🙂
No matter how hard you try to derail this conversation onto a side track, we're leaving Hamilton out of this.

stormybadger8 said:Who says he didn't?
Jarno Trulli even won races in that same '03 and '04 car.
That car wasn't anything close to the level of a Toro Rosso; if anything, it was on par with a modern Ferrari, or at worst, a Mercedes.

You're equating nine years of consistency with a single podium back in '08. Nice. 🙂

stormybadger8 said:I'm not saying Alonso is bad, or that he wouldn't be capable of grabbing podiums and even wins in a worse car.
Of course he would. In fact, he's proven several times now that he can do it—especially in 2008 and 2009. And in '03 and '04, he was exceptionally good.

Just a moment ago, you weren't saying that:

stormybadger8 said:maybe Hamilton and Fernando Alonso should just go join Toro Rosso or Williams and sing their own praises about how they can win in mediocre cars.

Make up your mind. Is Alonso capable of winning in a bad car, or isn't he? 🙄

stormybadger8 said:Maybe do a little research first? Burdais only managed to score points twice in his entire NASCAR career, and that was a 7th place finish in a race where six other drivers actually made it to the finish line.😬

That 7th place really marks the ceiling of his NASCAR career. I’ll leave a link below so you can see who the guy actually is; if he were truly a fraud, there's no way he would have secured so many titles in other racing series.☕
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9bastien_Bourdais

If you combine the points from Liuzzi, Speedway, Burdais, Buemi, and Alguersari across the 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 seasons, they only totaled 28 points combined.
And keep in mind, we’re talking about the 2010 season, when the scoring system changed and ten different drivers started picking up points.
Had the scoring remained the same as previous years, those five drivers in that Toro Rosso over four seasons would have collectively earned only 16 points.😳
If you applied that old scoring system to this current season, you'd add another 9 points to that total (Alguersari +7 and Buemi +2).
So, the grand total of all points scored by every driver in the Toro Rosso (excluding Vettel) from 2007 to today is just 27 points.

In the Toro Rosso 2008, Vettel scored 35 points alone.😳

Please, don't try to play games with my intelligence.🙂

Burdais finished sixth in Japan back in 2008. However, after the race ended, he was hit with a penalty due to an incident, which dropped him to 10th place after a 25-second addition. It was a similar nonsense situation to how Perez was penalized at the start of this season.

Furthermore, I intentionally wrote that he was a flop in NASCAR. I respect his titles elsewhere, but here, he was incredibly disappointing. Personally, he disappointed me just as much as Grosjean did during that half-season. To stay on track, I don't think the Toro Rosso 2008 was a bad car; in fact, I think it was even better than what everyone is praising this year.

But it doesn't matter; I have no desire to argue about Vettel. Especially since—and I am emphasizing this for the third time—I believe he is a great champion who will know how to win even in a subpar car, just like the other champions on the grid. I simply agree with Alonso when he says we should wait to see what happens once Red Bull is no longer dominant.

The seasons lately have been way more fun to watch—you could really tell back in 2008 that Sebastian Vettel actually knew how to drive.
Fernando Alonso knows his stuff too; honestly, he might’ve even had a better ranking this year if they didn't have DRS—he probably would've defended his position much better.
If you stuck Lewis Hamilton in something like a Mercedes, he wouldn't have finished a single race, or he'd be hanging out at the very back.
I agree that people have selective memory—Vettel was great in the Toro Rosso, and that win at Indianapolis was just the icing on the cake for everything he'd done up to that point.
In this era, there's zero chance anyone breaks through with a bad car unless it's some freakishly weird race.

Jason Campbell70 said:Look, I'm not even talking about Hamilton. 🙂
No matter how hard you try to derail this conversation, we're leaving Hamilton out of it.

Why is it that when this whole thing started regarding Hamilton, you're the one pivoting to Alonso? Go back and read my first post on this subject.☕

Jason Campbell70 said:Make up your mind. Can Alonso win in a bad car, or can he not? 🙄

Of course he can, ☕. Who says he can't? 🙄
I've been saying all along that Alonso and Vettel proved it, while Hamilton hasn't.
And I'm still not sold on that Alonso quote, if it's even actually his.

stormybadger8 Asks:
Why did everything start moving this way? Hamilton's.Look, you're the one who shifted this whole conversation toward Alonso. Why don't you go back and actually read my first post on the matter?☕

Not happening, I'm afraid. 🙂

You posted the link to Alonso's statement, only to have everyone laugh at him.

Even if that statement is true and realistic, isn't it?

stormybadger8 Asks:
Of course it is. ☕Who says otherwise?🙄
I keep insisting that Alonso and Sebastian Vettel have already proven themselves, while Hamilton hasn't. Haven't they?

Then what's the point of all this?

stormybadger8 said:If Alonso moves to Toro Rosso or Williams, then fine. They can sit there together and sing the same old song about how they’re capable of winning even in mediocre cars.

And all this noise about how Alonso doesn't understand what it means to win in a bad car.

What's wrong with that? It’s not just incorrect—you completely missed the mark on this one. 🙂
Alonso basically invented winning in a junker just to make it look good for Sebastian Vettel. You know, that one podium Vettel grabbed during a rainy race on a track that doesn't even suit today's cars? Yet, somehow, people act like that single win carries more weight than nine straight seasons of consistent podium finishes. Makes sense, right?

Failure. In the same league as Vettel's sunglasses:


God bless you. ☕

stormybadger8—isn't it about time you started a dedicated TBF1 vs. the community thread? 😁, this current setup is ridiculous. Yesterday it was all about the transfer market, today it’s just endless gossip, and neither belongs here. Also, what's the deal with your moderation style? Are you only acting as a moderator during winter testing or 🤷, I'm being serious here?

silvergull10 said:stormybadger8-isn't it time you just started a dedicated TBF1 vs. the forum users thread 😁? This makes zero sense. Yesterday it was transfer rumors, today it's gossip, and neither belongs here. Also, what's the deal with your moderation style? Are you only a mod during winter testing or 🤷, seriously?

Honestly, I’m thinking about starting a general thread for drivers and teams so we can actually talk about them there instead of cluttering up every other topic.
I'm just worried it'll get massive and everything will end up in one pile.
So, I moved this here.

And yeah, apparently I'm just a seasonal moderator.🤣

With a car that's a full second faster per lap, even my 83-year-old grandma could clinch the championship...😁
It’s even easier when you’re stuck with a teammate nobody can stand, let alone someone who's basically just filling a seat. He cruised to those titles way easier than Hakkinen did 😂

It’s honestly ridiculous seeing people hype up a guy who isn't even in the same league as Senna, Fangio, or Schumacher.
He only pulled off those results because he was driving an incredibly dominant car...

Real experts will have their say on this one eventually...☕

dustyskipper77 said:I'm sure the actual experts will weigh in eventually...☕

Yeah, we can all see who the real expert is here. 😁