GP Germany - 07/25/2010

Charles Martin78 said:😁

Things like this always manage to brighten my mood. You forgot to mention that his luckiest years were back when he was still a kid and actually had an extra day in the week just to work on car development 😛

As for Alonso, I'm right there with you.🙈

🤣🤣🤣🤣 🙏🙏🙏

Joshua Newman2 said:To touch on that point: anyone who has followed F1 since the days when Schumacher ran Ferrari won't be surprised that Massa had to step aside for Alonso yesterday. I’m not saying it’s right or smart; it’s just how they've always operated. No matter how much I criticize Red Bull for their inability to manage a team and throwing away points, I'll always respect them more than teams that don't even pretend to be sporting.

On another note—how are people (especially the folks over at stormybadger8) reacting to Vettel's start and him shoving Alonso into the wall? There are way too many pages to sift through, but if Webber had done that, he would have been branded a lunatic attempting to murder a colleague. I just hope the kid doesn't get a better pass, despite his habit of smoking.😁

Damn, I totally missed that detail.🤷

But the fact remains that Vettel's starts have been absolutely pathetic lately 🤦 and instead of actually trying to fix his mistake, he just tries to block the guy behind him—desperately holding onto his position out of pure frustration—only to screw up even worse immediately after. 🙄
At least that's how I saw the start at Silverstone 🤷 but hey, what do I know.

Honestly, Red Bull definitely needs a top-tier psychologist. I don't know what their deal is, but everyone there should probably go for a collective mental health checkup at least three times a week.👎

You can't tell who's crazier or more clueless: the management or the drivers.

wiredtiger8 said:Yeah, that hits the nail right on the head... it’s 90% grind and 10% talent.
The issue with Schumacher is that you can't replicate that today since testing is banned—the guy literally built his entire existence around being in that cockpit.
Look, I'm not against team orders, but there's a massive difference between what happened then and what we saw back in the Austrian GP 2002. Back then, it wasn't forbidden, and I'm pretty sure Ferrari got hit with a million-dollar penalty... so who knows what's coming next. I highly doubt they'll just stop at $100,000.
Honestly, don't hold your breath for anything other than an even steeper fine in US dollars. It feels to me like the penalties handed to Ferrari over the last two races were way too harsh due to circumstances, so now they're probably going to try some "compensation" move.

Btw.... when Massa was at the press conference and asked "what happened?", he really should have just said: "Well, you all saw it... Alonso was simply too fast for me... he's one of the fastest drivers to ever live, if not *the* fastest... I just didn't stand a chance against that kind of pace"
Of course, he’d have to pull that dead-serious face while saying it (you know, the Pervan style).
That would be a massive blow to Alonso's ego... and honestly, he wouldn't even be lying; he'd just be telling him and everyone else the truth.

I totally agree, though honestly, it’s actually a good thing he slowed down on the straightaway just so everyone could see he missed it. If he hadn't, you'd have some "die-hard fan" blowing up the comments claiming FA deserved the win and questioning if the fight for The championship was even legitimate. Championship

Joshua Newman2 said:To touch on that point: anyone who has followed F1 since the days when Schumacher ran Ferrari won't be surprised that Massa had to step aside for Alonso yesterday. I’m not saying it’s right or smart; it’s just how they've always operated. No matter how much I criticize Red Bull for their inability to manage a team and throwing away points, I'll always respect them more than teams that don't even pretend to be sporting.

On another note—how are people (especially the folks over at stormybadger8) reacting to Vettel's start and him shoving Alonso into the wall? There are way too many pages to sift through, but if Webber had done that, he would have been branded a lunatic attempting to murder a colleague. I just hope the kid doesn't get a better pass, despite his habit of smoking.😁

TBF clearly missed the start 😁

But I can tell you how I saw it, and I guess I'm pretty soft on both Vettel and Alonso 😬

Yeah, Vettel totally botched it... but now that I know it didn't actually stop Alonso from winning, I can be a bit more level-headed about it 🤣 though in the heat of the moment, I actually jumped off my couch screaming that Seb was out of his mind, that it was incredibly unsportsmanlike, and that he deserved a penalty so heavy it would make his head spin 😬

My take is that it went something like this: Seb had a slightly slower reaction time at the lights, realized Alonso was going to overtake him, and then panicked, lunging hard to the right and essentially squeezing him out... It was a wild move and a complete disaster of a start (which he admitted himself later), but it seemed like an instinctive reflex where he completely forgot all about Massa, who just ended up driving straight through

I suspect Seb was so hyper-focused and obsessed with making sure Alonso didn't get past him at the start—since he knew that was basically his only shot at this race—that when things happened, they just happened... It was a terrible mistake and another bit of bad luck for Fernando (which contributed to how everything played out later) 😬 but I don't think it was malicious; Seb is still a little green, I suppose, so these kinds of things happen 😳 😬

I agree that I’d probably want to stone Webber if he were the one who did it 🤣 but I guess Mark is a much more experienced driver, which is a factor you can't really ignore 😳

I absolutely agree that Vettel didn't do this on purpose; it was pure instinct. That said, the move was very much in the style of Schumacher (it’s hardly surprising that Jason Campbell70 is defending him 😁).
As for his later stint with Ferrari, I’m honestly speechless... But it goes to show exactly why I, someone who appreciates many different teams, can't stand just one...

Joshua Newman2 said:I absolutely agree that Vettel didn't do this on purpose; it was pure instinct. That said, the move was very much in the style of Schumacher (it’s hardly surprising that Jason Campbell70 is defending him 😁).
As for his later stint with Ferrari, I’m honestly speechless... But it goes to show exactly why I, someone who appreciates many different teams, can't stand just one...

What a perfect way for this to end 😁 😉

Joshua Newman2 said:I absolutely agree that Vettel didn't do this on purpose; it was pure instinct. That said, the move was very much in the style of Schumacher (it’s hardly surprising that Jason Campbell70 is defending him 😁).
As for his later stint with Ferrari, I’m honestly speechless... But it goes to show exactly why I, someone who appreciates many different teams, can't stand just one...

👍 EXACTLY 🤣

I feel the exact same way. A lot of people here claim McLaren hasn't changed, but as a Vettel fan, I definitely don't care for Hamilton, and honestly, I'm not huge on Button either. Hamilton comes off as arrogant and slimy to me, while Button is just too soft and secretive. If you could fuse them into one driver right in the middle, you'd have perfection 😁 and they'd probably dominate for years. I don't have a deep love for any specific team, but even so, they're all way, way more likable than Ferrari ☕
.
If I were to make a list of my least favorite teams, it would look something like this:

1. Ferrari
2. Ferrari
3. Ferrari
4. Ferrari
5. Ferrari
6. Ferrari
7. Ferrari
8. Ferrari
9. Ferrari
10. Ferrari
11. Ferrari
12. Ferrari
🤣

stormybadger8 said:👍 EXACTLY 🤣

I feel the exact same way. A lot of people here claim McLaren hasn't changed, but as a Vettel fan, I definitely don't care for Hamilton, and honestly, I'm not huge on Button either. Hamilton comes off as arrogant and slimy to me, while Button is just too soft and secretive. If you could fuse them into one driver right in the middle, you'd have perfection 😁 and they'd probably dominate for years. I don't have a deep love for any specific team, but even so, they're all way, way more likable than Ferrari ☕
.
If I were to make a list of my least favorite teams, it would look something like this:

1. Ferrari
2. Ferrari
3. Ferrari
4. Ferrari
5. Ferrari
6. Ferrari
7. Ferrari
8. Ferrari
9. Ferrari
10. Ferrari
11. Ferrari
12. Ferrari
🤣

Don't go making enemies out of everyone...😁
Go to church... it'll calm you down... 😁

God, you guys are exhausting. 🙂

Industrial espionage, pressuring drivers to force a collision, team orders (just like what goes on at Ferrari)—all of that is absolute nonsense compared to how corrupt Ferrari actually is.

Honestly, it seems like some people’s blood pressure just spikes the second they see a flash of red, making it physically impossible for them to think straight. 😁

Charles Martin78 said:😁

Things like this always manage to brighten my mood. You forgot to mention that his luckiest years were back when he was still a kid and actually had an extra day in the week just to work on car development 😛

As for Alonso, I'm right there with you.🙈

I didn't forget. I just chose to leave that little detail out on purpose. 😛

Joshua Newman2 said:I absolutely agree that Vettel didn't do this on purpose; it was pure instinct. That said, the move was very much in the style of Schumacher (it’s hardly surprising that Jason Campbell70 is defending him 😁).
As for his later stint with Ferrari, I’m honestly speechless... But it goes to show exactly why I, someone who appreciates many different teams, can't stand just one...

How do you view the situation unfolding inside McLaren?

Is that any way to do things?

McLaren isn't exactly one of my personal favorites among the teams, but they handle team orders with much more subtlety. The way I saw things play out at Ferrari yesterday, or even back in the day during the Austrian GP 2002 when Barrichello had to step aside for Schumacher, was unlike anything I've seen from any other outfit—and I'm not saying it hasn't happened elsewhere, just that I haven't witnessed it firsthand. Someone mentioned the intentional crashes earlier, and sure, we've seen that too, but after that mess, Briatore and Simmonds were essentially purged from the sport, and I didn't feel a shred of sympathy for them. My only regret was that Nelshinho didn't face direct consequences, considering the whole thing was his brainchild.

Joshua Newman2 said:McLaren isn't exactly one of my personal favorites among the teams, but they handle team orders with much more subtlety. The way I saw things play out at Ferrari yesterday, or even back in the day during the Austrian GP 2002 when Barrichello had to step aside for Schumacher, was unlike anything I've seen from any other outfit—and I'm not saying it hasn't happened elsewhere, just that I haven't witnessed it firsthand. Someone mentioned the intentional crashes earlier, and sure, we've seen that too, but after that mess, Briatore and Simmonds were essentially purged from the sport, and I didn't feel a shred of sympathy for them. My only regret was that Nelshinho didn't face direct consequences, considering the whole thing was his brainchild.

Who actually cares how they try to mask them?
The fact remains they exist, and McLaren (and the McLaren crowd) are trying to slickly convince us there are no team orders, that they have no idea what's happening—all that nonsense.

Besides, regarding the point below, wouldn't someone intentionally crashing into an opponent essentially hand their teammate the title? Oh wait, right. Square. 🙄

Joshua Newman2 said:McLaren isn't exactly one of my personal favorites among the teams, but they handle team orders with much more subtlety. The way I saw things play out at Ferrari yesterday, or even back in the day during the Austrian GP 2002 when Barrichello had to step aside for Schumacher, was unlike anything I've seen from any other outfit—and I'm not saying it hasn't happened elsewhere, just that I haven't witnessed it firsthand. Someone mentioned the intentional crashes earlier, and sure, we've seen that too, but after that mess, Briatore and Simmonds were essentially purged from the sport, and I didn't feel a shred of sympathy for them. My only regret was that Nelshinho didn't face direct consequences, considering the whole thing was his brainchild.

I believe that’s the only thing that should be banned.

I see no reason to ban intra-team agreements. It's one of the most absurd—and frankly, most ridiculous—decisions from Elizabeth Hughes, especially given the penalties handed out.

stormybadger8 said:The whole Ferrari vs. Red Bull-McLaren dynamic is pretty interesting to me.

In Turkey, Vettel was clearly faster than Webber, but there was total radio silence. Vettel just pins the throttle—way harder than Alonso was doing behind Massa—creeps up on Webber's rear end, practically swallows him whole, and boom, they collide. (Okay, maybe Vettel went left while Webber went right, but still.)

Then you've got Alonso catching up to Massa and pushing hard, but he can't get past him and eventually gives up. Of course, he’s probably got some cell phone tucked in his suit with an earpiece, so he yells "Montezemolo" into it. He dials a number a few times, but it's busy—probably some old guy rambling away with Charlie.🤷 The phone rings again and finally someone picks up. Alonso says, "Tell Massa I'm faster." A few minutes of silence pass, then they call Massa over the radio to explain what happened and how much slower he actually is compared to Alonso. Alonso really wanted to make sure everyone knew just how fast he was.

Meanwhile, in Turkey, Button was noticeably faster than Hamilton. He catches him and breezes past. Hamilton shouts "Dennis!" into his headset, and the phone rings immediately. Dennis answers instantly, and Hamilton tells him, "Explain to Janson that I'm faster and that he's going to run out of fuel if he doesn't get out of my slipstream." They relay the message to Button over the radio, and Hamilton pulls back ahead.

The point of this story: Vettel, Button, Webber, and Massa desperately need cell phones.🤣
Or maybe we should just ban phones in F1 cars altogether.🤣

😁

I found it quite interesting—and honestly kind of hilarious—to watch the post-race comments on US news yesterday regarding this team order situation. While almost everyone involved, from Schumi to Coulthard, seemed to think it was just business as usual—that regardless of how it looked to us, it's perfectly normal since the team's interest comes first— only Horner seemed genuinely outraged by Ferrari's move. 🤣He just kept repeating it in shock: "But that was a team order! They told Massa to let him through! That's forbidden! They actually told him! We saw it!" 🤣 And he had a face like this -> 😕😕

Yeah, it seems like Red Bull is the only one that doesn't play that game. They just sit there, tapping their feet nervously, helplessly watching their drivers go wild until they eventually crash into each other. 😬

It really shows how green they are... sure, they might be more "innocent" than the others, but that automatically makes them "dumber," funnier, and less successful. And that's exactly why I'd say it's only because of that—they lose both the constructors' and the drivers' titles.

And if, as Schumi so eloquently put it, the sole goal and reason everyone is there is the title, then Red Bull's management philosophy deserves ridicule (which they get regularly) rather than praise. 😬

I wonder what would happen if they actually tried telling a driver to let another pass just once... it would be absolute chaos! If one Webber loses his mind and says all that just because a new wing was given to the lead driver—which is a much smaller issue than being told to yield position on track—imagine the meltdown.😁

Teams that operate like that don't stand a chance at winning a title. As we’re seeing—even when they have a significantly faster car... They’ll always lose out to the ones who traded chunks of their integrity for pure efficiency. I guess Formula 1 is just built that way, and honestly, it always has been.

Most world champions usually end up being the ones who are best at dancing right on the edge of what's considered moral. 😬

redheron12 said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7IiR6Mgwyk

Go ahead, watch the clip and tell me—did Button actually miss his chance with Hamilton?

He did, and honestly, the whole thing is just a total comedy, albeit with slightly better acting.

The reality is, just like in previous years, driver titles have been secured through direct team orders.

Joshua Newman2 said:McLaren isn't exactly one of my personal favorites among the teams, but they handle team orders with much more subtlety. The way I saw things play out at Ferrari yesterday, or even back in the day during the Austrian GP 2002 when Barrichello had to step aside for Schumacher, was unlike anything I've seen from any other outfit—and I'm not saying it hasn't happened elsewhere, just that I haven't witnessed it firsthand. Someone mentioned the intentional crashes earlier, and sure, we've seen that too, but after that mess, Briatore and Simmonds were essentially purged from the sport, and I didn't feel a shred of sympathy for them. My only regret was that Nelshinho didn't face direct consequences, considering the whole thing was his brainchild.

Kill me now, but I just can't wrap my head around that logic...

How on earth is something that is inherently completely identical—exactly the same—morally wrong MORE MORAL if you just do it subtly?🤣 WTF 🤣

I was messing around with this idea yesterday, but today I’m going to double down: personally, I find it much sleazier to pull all these maneuvers just to "better hide" or camouflage something that is clearly breaking the rules—something we can all see perfectly well is a rule violation—regardless of how well it's disguised. I'd much rather deal with people who don't even bother trying to 😁hide it.

I might even go as far as to say it feels insulting when people try to mask it and expect me to act like everything is "clean" and that there were no team orders at all. Even someone blind could see what's happening, no matter how hard they try to cover it up. It's just annoying when they assume I'm too clueless to notice and try to play games with me.😛 😁😁

Jason Campbell70 said:The reality is, just like in previous years, driver titles have been secured through direct team orders.

Sure.

But this thread seems to be filled with nothing but French maids...

😁

Jason Campbell70 said:Who actually cares how they try to mask them?
The fact remains they exist, and McLaren (and the McLaren crowd) are trying to slickly convince us there are no team orders, that they have no idea what's happening—all that nonsense.

Besides, regarding the point below, wouldn't someone intentionally crashing into an opponent essentially hand their teammate the title? Oh wait, right. Square. 🙄

I believe that’s the only thing that should be banned.

I see no reason to ban intra-team agreements. It's one of the most absurd—and frankly, most ridiculous—decisions from Elizabeth Hughes, especially given the penalties handed out.

cosmicridge5 said:Kill me now, but I just can't wrap my head around that logic...

How on earth is something that is inherently completely identical—exactly the same—morally wrong MORE MORAL if you just do it subtly?🤣 WTF 🤣

I was messing around with this idea yesterday, but today I’m going to double down: personally, I find it much sleazier to pull all these maneuvers just to "better hide" or camouflage something that is clearly breaking the rules—something we can all see perfectly well is a rule violation—regardless of how well it's disguised. I'd much rather deal with people who don't even bother trying to 😁hide it.

I might even go as far as to say it feels insulting when people try to mask it and expect me to act like everything is "clean" and that there were no team orders at all. Even someone blind could see what's happening, no matter how hard they try to cover it up. It's just annoying when they assume I'm too clueless to notice and try to play games with me.😛 😁😁

There is a distinction here, and I will attempt to explain it: we can speculate that McLaren, Williams, or anyone else employs team orders; people can claim it and be certain, but they don't *know*. But when something like this actually happens, then it becomes a fact. And that knowledge "kills" the sport, the team, and the driver's integrity. Alonso might win the championship now, but he’ll always face the criticism that he couldn't beat his own teammate, and wouldn't have become champion if he hadn't been forced to move out of the way. That doesn't just cast a shadow on the title; it plunges it into total darkness. As for Massa, after this, he can talk all he wants about his form, tire temperature issues, or his ambition and readiness to win, but after yesterday, he's nothing more than a water carrier. Until he moves to another team, nobody will ever take him seriously again. From yesterday onward, his role is simply to fill the grid and look after Fernando Alonso's interests.

Did Button let Hamilton through, or did Hamilton overtake him? If we knew for a fact that he let him through, Button would be no different from Barrichello to Schumacher, Massa to Alonso, or some IT geek serving a powerful leader in a prison cell: just a tool meant to move when things get uncomfortable. But we don't know. We can only assume one way or the other, so Button still maintains some semblance of driver integrity, and Hamilton, if he becomes champion, will have the integrity of a true champion. That is the difference!

I’m sure you all remember how thrilled Alonso seemed just recently when they extended Massa's contract. Well, it turns out that wasn't just coincidence; with that deal, Massa essentially agreed to play his part. Unfortunately, since Ferrari clearly hasn't figured out how to get their actors to deliver a convincing performance, they really should have looked for a number two driver who wouldn't occasionally trip up Alonso. This current setup is easily the worst-case scenario.

Joshua Newman2 said:There is a distinction here, and I will attempt to explain it: we can speculate that McLaren, Williams, or anyone else employs team orders; people can claim it and be certain, but they don't *know*. But when something like this actually happens, then it becomes a fact. And that knowledge "kills" the sport, the team, and the driver's integrity. Alonso might win the championship now, but he’ll always face the criticism that he couldn't beat his own teammate, and wouldn't have become champion if he hadn't been forced to move out of the way. That doesn't just cast a shadow on the title; it plunges it into total darkness. As for Massa, after this, he can talk all he wants about his form, tire temperature issues, or his ambition and readiness to win, but after yesterday, he's nothing more than a water carrier. Until he moves to another team, nobody will ever take him seriously again. From yesterday onward, his role is simply to fill the grid and look after Fernando Alonso's interests.

Did Button let Hamilton through, or did Hamilton overtake him? If we knew for a fact that he let him through, Button would be no different from Barrichello to Schumacher, Massa to Alonso, or some IT geek serving a powerful leader in a prison cell: just a tool meant to move when things get uncomfortable. But we don't know. We can only assume one way or the other, so Button still maintains some semblance of driver integrity, and Hamilton, if he becomes champion, will have the integrity of a true champion. That is the difference!

I’m sure you all remember how thrilled Alonso seemed just recently when they extended Massa's contract. Well, it turns out that wasn't just coincidence; with that deal, Massa essentially agreed to play his part. Unfortunately, since Ferrari clearly hasn't figured out how to get their actors to deliver a convincing performance, they really should have looked for a number two driver who wouldn't occasionally trip up Alonso. This current setup is easily the worst-case scenario.

Dedu 🎉

😬