GP Germany - 07/25/2010

slydrifter39 said:What should Alonso have said at the press conference? "Yes, it was your order, just ask the boss to let me through." Then they actually would've punished them. What I'm seeing here is just typical Italian sloppiness. Instead of planning it out ahead of time and masking it like the English do, they execute it with the same level of incompetence seen in their pit stops during the pre-Schumacher era—you know, when they couldn't even tighten a wheel and Mansell ends up sliding into a wall on three wheels.

Even the journalists at the BBC are out here defending them (give me a break!).

Yeah, let's slap them with some penalties since they're sloppy and disorganized. Plus, they aren't even cheating well enough. Honestly, rigging a race isn't even unsportsmanlike—it's just optimizing results. Like I said before, what's the point of having two drivers on a team if they both have to work against the overall result?

Look, I gotta mention Massa. He had his shot at the title back in 2008, but he choked because he just didn't have the backbone to handle the pressure. You can't keep handing him opportunities forever. And look at Barrichello—he was the number two guy at Ferrari, then last year he was supposedly on equal footing, and what did he actually achieve? Absolutely nothing.

Or, like redheron12 says, they leave the intake cover off on purpose. 😁

English school. 🙂

slydrifter39 said:What should Alonso have said at the press conference? "Yes, it was your order, just ask the boss to let me through." Then they actually would've punished them. What I'm seeing here is just typical Italian sloppiness. Instead of planning it out ahead of time and masking it like the English do, they execute it with the same level of incompetence seen in their pit stops during the pre-Schumacher era—you know, when they couldn't even tighten a wheel and Mansell ends up sliding into a wall on three wheels.

Even the journalists at the BBC are out here defending them (give me a break!).

Yeah, let's slap them with some penalties since they're sloppy and disorganized. Plus, they aren't even cheating well enough. Honestly, rigging a race isn't even unsportsmanlike—it's just optimizing results. Like I said before, what's the point of having two drivers on a team if they both have to work against the overall result?

Look, I gotta mention Massa. He had his shot at the title back in 2008, but he choked because he just didn't have the backbone to handle the pressure. You can't keep handing him opportunities forever. And look at Barrichello—he was the number two guy at Ferrari, then last year he was supposedly on equal footing, and what did he actually achieve? Absolutely nothing.

It’s almost ironic, isn't it? If Ferrari had actually played their cards right and been more subtle about it, they wouldn't be facing these penalties.

So, it turns out the penalty just acts as an incentive to cheat even better.

Elizabeth Hughes. 🙄

slydrifter39 said:What should Alonso have said at the press conference? "Yes, it was your order, just ask the boss to let me through." Then they actually would've punished them. What I'm seeing here is just typical Italian sloppiness. Instead of planning it out ahead of time and masking it like the English do, they execute it with the same level of incompetence seen in their pit stops during the pre-Schumacher era—you know, when they couldn't even tighten a wheel and Mansell ends up sliding into a wall on three wheels.

Even the journalists at the BBC are out here defending them (give me a break!).

Yeah, let's slap them with some penalties since they're sloppy and disorganized. Plus, they aren't even cheating well enough. Honestly, rigging a race isn't even unsportsmanlike—it's just optimizing results. Like I said before, what's the point of having two drivers on a team if they both have to work against the overall result?

Look, I gotta mention Massa. He had his shot at the title back in 2008, but he choked because he just didn't have the backbone to handle the pressure. You can't keep handing him opportunities forever. And look at Barrichello—he was the number two guy at Ferrari, then last year he was supposedly on equal footing, and what did he actually achieve? Absolutely nothing.

That’s only half true. Don't give me that, slydrifter39.☕

😁

Betty Moore34 said:Big signature🙏
Next up is Canada, which feels very similar to Monaco, and everyone knows exactly who the main contender is. 🙂

Yeah, I mean, Massa said the exact same thing last year, and well, it kind of backfired on him...
😁

Jason Campbell70 said:Do you really think their title would be even slightly tainted if they had won it using team orders?

Well, RB is the perfect example of why team orders actually make sense. 👍

Who's who? That's what the "Biggest Troll on forum.hr" title tells you perfectly. 😎 🙏

Exactly.😢

But honestly, this is what's always been disgusting about F1. They write these rules and say, "Hey, that's banned, 🙂"
but then they turn a blind eye for certain people. Meanwhile, others follow the rules and get called out for it. Then you've got a third group constantly whining about illegal parts, while they're actually just ripping off other cars, packing themselves with illegal bits, lying, cheating, and using team orders. It's all just a massive joke.🤣

Look, it's simple. If you want to win a title in F1, you have to be a total jerk. Your team needs to be packed with scammers and liars, and you need a driver who isn't afraid to play dirty and shove people around.

Anything else is just a fantasy.😢

P. S: And remember when Button tried to see what it was like to squeeze his teammate? I guess Rubens told him it was suuuuper, so he figured he'd give it a shot too.🤣

stormybadger8 said:Exactly.😢

But honestly, this is what's always been disgusting about F1. They write these rules and say, "Hey, that's banned, 🙂"
but then they turn a blind eye for certain people. Meanwhile, others follow the rules and get called out for it. Then you've got a third group constantly whining about illegal parts, while they're actually just ripping off other cars, packing themselves with illegal bits, lying, cheating, and using team orders. It's all just a massive joke.🤣

Look, it's simple. If you want to win a title in F1, you have to be a total jerk. Your team needs to be packed with scammers and liars, and you need a driver who isn't afraid to play dirty and shove people around.

Anything else is just a fantasy.😢

P. S: And remember when Button tried to see what it was like to squeeze his teammate? I guess Rubens told him it was suuuuper, so he figured he'd give it a shot too.🤣

Or, you could just be an honest person, let the drivers fight it out without any team orders, and lose everything. 😁

Besides, those kinds of team orders are never going to go away (nor should they).

slydrifter39 said:What should Alonso have said at the press conference? "Yes, it was your order, just ask the boss to let me through." Then they actually would've punished them. What I'm seeing here is just typical Italian sloppiness. Instead of planning it out ahead of time and masking it like the English do, they execute it with the same level of incompetence seen in their pit stops during the pre-Schumacher era—you know, when they couldn't even tighten a wheel and Mansell ends up sliding into a wall on three wheels.

Even the journalists at the BBC are out here defending them (give me a break!).

Yeah, let's slap them with some penalties since they're sloppy and disorganized. Plus, they aren't even cheating well enough. Honestly, rigging a race isn't even unsportsmanlike—it's just optimizing results. Like I said before, what's the point of having two drivers on a team if they both have to work against the overall result?

Look, I gotta mention Massa. He had his shot at the title back in 2008, but he choked because he just didn't have the backbone to handle the pressure. You can't keep handing him opportunities forever. And look at Barrichello—he was the number two guy at Ferrari, then last year he was supposedly on equal footing, and what did he actually achieve? Absolutely nothing.

Estoril 1991, except he was driving for Williams back then; look at that damn English team go.

All jokes aside, I completely agree that this was pathetic, sloppy, miserable, and just plain cowardly.

But what's the deal with New Zealand?

Jason Campbell70 said:The reality is, just like in previous years, driver titles have been secured through direct team orders.

Sure, if we look back over the last 15 to 20 years, almost every single one of them—regardless of how much we might dislike the idea

was actually faster than their teammates. In certain seasons, they were absolutely dominant. But does that change the fact that most of those championships wouldn't have turned out the way they did without that privileged status?

silvercobra68 said:Estoril 1991, except he was driving for Williams back then; look at that damn English team go.

All jokes aside, I completely agree that this was pathetic, sloppy, miserable, and just plain cowardly.

But what's the deal with New Zealand?

They say there are 4,384,265 people 😁

mistybear87 said:Sure, if we look back over the last 15 to 20 years, almost every single one of them—regardless of how much we might dislike the idea

was actually faster than their teammates. In certain seasons, they were absolutely dominant. But does that change the fact that most of those championships wouldn't have turned out the way they did without that privileged status?

I wouldn't be quite that extreme.

But it’s interesting how people always point to the Austrian GP 2002 as the textbook example of team orders.

A swap of positions that ended up yielding a completely insignificant 4 points for the final standings.

It was much more interesting—and far more critical for the title race—when championships were decided by a single point. And that has happened. Whether it was orchestrated by Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, or even Williams(😲 😁).

Maria Nelson2 said:They say there are 4,384,265 people 😁

of those? No thanks :P

I honestly think Todt is just sitting there throwing a tantrum every time he sees what his team has turned into...

Jason Campbell70 said:I wouldn't be quite that extreme.

But it’s interesting how people always point to the Austrian GP 2002 as the textbook example of team orders.

A swap of positions that ended up yielding a completely insignificant 4 points for the final standings.

It was much more interesting—and far more critical for the title race—when championships were decided by a single point. And that has happened. Whether it was orchestrated by Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, or even Williams(😲 😁).

Let's be real: implementing team orders during those final races when the second driver has zero chance at the title is the most normal thing in the world. It happens in almost every major sport. No matter how much people try to prevent it, that's just how the game works. There is no "I" in team. 😉

I'm not going to spend my time hunting for them right now, but if you actually have an example where both drivers in the final race had a legitimate shot at the title, please feel free to share it so we can discuss. 😉
(And by that, I mean situations where one driver could have overtaken the other to clinch the championship, not those weird tactical scenarios where they just shuffle around 😉).

Ferrari pulled that move way back at the start of the 2002 season, and frankly, it felt totally unnecessary. Jean Todt famously remarked at the time, "Why should we risk losing the championship over 3 points? We'd look pretty foolish if we didn't act," which, considering how dominant their car was, felt like a massive understatement. We all know how 2002 wrapped up anyway... whether it was the driver shouting at the pit wall to let him through or the team making the call, does it even matter?

If you want a different perspective, check out Top Gear, Season 15, Episode 3. It’s worth seeing what Red Bull has to say about that whole incident. 😉

Joshua Newman2 said:Jack Kelly5, comparing this situation to a group of unfaithful partners is a pretty convincing analogy, and I have to hand it to you—I agree with that point. 🙏

But look at it this way: I’ve always had a soft spot for Button. He reminds me of Prost, and I really respect how he carries himself with such class, proving that raw aggression and sheer speed aren't the only ways to win. Now, the big question: Is he actually Hamilton's wingman? A lot of people swear he is, but personally, I don't buy it. I don't think anyone at McLaren ever sat him down and said, "Look, once you catch up to Hamilton, you need to step aside because we're banking on him for the title, while you're just here to play team player—even if your mathematical odds of winning the championship are just as slim." If I knew for a fact, if it were proven, that Button was intentionally playing the supporting role at the expense of his own shot at the title, I’d be the first one to write him off as a true athlete and driver.

I also like Button, and I can't wrap my head around McLaren's strategy, which says a lot. 😁

Regarding the team dynamic, I think they definitely favor Lewis. At least on an intimate level. 😁 I’m not saying they tell the drivers this openly or make it blatantly obvious, but I think it's definitely in the air. And look—the relationship (in terms of power and point gaps) between those two isn't even close to something like Massa and Alonso's. I believe McLaren expected Button to fall behind Lewis more significantly. It will be really interesting to see how things play out if they reach a situation where they actually *have* to help Lewis at Button's expense, which hasn't happened yet.

I suspect how much equality Button is 'allowed' will depend largely on how well he manages to push Lewis. I imagine if he weren't this close—if the gap between them were as obvious and massive as it is at Ferrari between Massa and Alonso—then Button would likely know his place too. 😁 In a situation like yesterday's, he might voluntarily 😉 offer less resistance to Lewis, allowing him to pass without having to issue an explicit order like they did to Massa, and without making the whole thing look as messy as it did.

One of Button's traits—and I'll call it a quality—is that the team's interests actually matter to him. He strikes me as an incredibly rational person who doesn't have ego issues. I think in a scenario like yesterday, he would realize that, for the sake of the team and the loyalty he seems to feel toward them, he doesn't need to defend his position tooth and nail. Unlike Massa, it would be clear to him what serves the team best and what the team legitimately expects from him. He wouldn't act foolishly or fight back so aggressively, only to end up embarrassing the team by forcing them to give him a direct order for something that should have been obvious. 🙄

I also feel for Massa that they had to say it to him. You know, the narrative sounds nice: "let them race, let him pass on track, blocking is cheating"—but when you look at the bigger picture, I don't think that mindset is right. From the perspective of the team, which the drivers are part of, that moment matters. They aren't just driving for themselves at the end of the day; they drive for the team. They should have some sense of belonging, respect, and 'loyalty' to that team, rather than focusing solely on their own selfish individual interests—at least when their own title chances are gone but the team's still remain.🤷 Don't forget there's a massive difference here because Button is still very much in the title hunt, whereas Massa isn't. So, I don't really buy your argument about him "defending his own title chances at all costs."

If I had been in Massa's shoes yesterday, I think I would have let my teammate through in that situation. Not obviously, but let's just say I wouldn't be defending myself quite as aggressively as if someone else were behind me. First off, I’d probably feel like it was my own fault for being such a huge distance behind in the points. It seems reasonable, and honestly fair—both to the team and the fans—to step aside for whoever actually still has a shot at the championship. To be honest, I’d feel like an irresponsible, selfish jerk if I were desperately fighting against my own teammate in a moment like that (especially knowing he's faster, and even if he is, it'll be hard for me to pass him anyway). It would feel like I was being selfish just to take first instead of second—even though being second doesn't realistically change my title hopes—and in doing so, ruining the team's last genuine chance to secure the Drivers' Championship 🤷

I suppose it just depends on your perspective and how you frame it in your head... but I view Formula 1 primarily as a team sport (regardless of the fact that only one driver can win the title). And again, Massa is out of the running here, which he himself has admitted—so in a team sport, I think different rules should apply, or at least ought to, compared to individual sports. 🤷 It reminds me of when soccer players get greedy and refuse to pass, trying to take shots from terrible, unrealistic positions instead... They end up missing, and they directly hurt the team. Personally, I find that ugly, selfish, and just plain wrong. 😳

mistybear87 said:Let's be real: implementing team orders during those final races when the second driver has zero chance at the title is the most normal thing in the world. It happens in almost every major sport. No matter how much people try to prevent it, that's just how the game works. There is no "I" in team. 😉

I'm not going to spend my time hunting for them right now, but if you actually have an example where both drivers in the final race had a legitimate shot at the title, please feel free to share it so we can discuss. 😉
(And by that, I mean situations where one driver could have overtaken the other to clinch the championship, not those weird tactical scenarios where they just shuffle around 😉).

Ferrari pulled that move way back at the start of the 2002 season, and frankly, it felt totally unnecessary. Jean Todt famously remarked at the time, "Why should we risk losing the championship over 3 points? We'd look pretty foolish if we didn't act," which, considering how dominant their car was, felt like a massive understatement. We all know how 2002 wrapped up anyway... whether it was the driver shouting at the pit wall to let him through or the team making the call, does it even matter?

If you want a different perspective, check out Top Gear, Season 15, Episode 3. It’s worth seeing what Red Bull has to say about that whole incident. 😉

That's my point too.

Whether it's the last race or not, it's obvious Massa has no shot at the title. He can pad his win count or his total points, but hey, he's part of Ferrari, and Ferrari is here strictly for the championship.
Every single race matters for the title, whether it's the first one or the last.

It's just easier to see clearly once the season starts winding down.

mistybear87 said:Let's be real: implementing team orders during those final races when the second driver has zero chance at the title is the most normal thing in the world. It happens in almost every major sport. No matter how much people try to prevent it, that's just how the game works. There is no "I" in team. 😉

I'm not going to spend my time hunting for them right now, but if you actually have an example where both drivers in the final race had a legitimate shot at the title, please feel free to share it so we can discuss. 😉
(And by that, I mean situations where one driver could have overtaken the other to clinch the championship, not those weird tactical scenarios where they just shuffle around 😉).

Ferrari pulled that move way back at the start of the 2002 season, and frankly, it felt totally unnecessary. Jean Todt famously remarked at the time, "Why should we risk losing the championship over 3 points? We'd look pretty foolish if we didn't act," which, considering how dominant their car was, felt like a massive understatement. We all know how 2002 wrapped up anyway... whether it was the driver shouting at the pit wall to let him through or the team making the call, does it even matter?

If you want a different perspective, check out Top Gear, Season 15, Episode 3. It’s worth seeing what Red Bull has to say about that whole incident. 😉

It isn't exactly common.

Senna - Prost, back in '89—and we all know how peacefully that ended. 😁
Then maybe '96, which ended with a wheel flying off. The result of all that "teamwork"? Who knows.🤷

For example—in 2008, Kovalainen clearly let Hamilton past several times without even fighting. The result? A few extra points for Hamilton, and ultimately, Hamilton wins the championship by a single point. Can we call Hockenheim 2008 a key race of that season?

cosmicridge5 said:I like Button too, but I just can't wrap my head around McLaren.

😁

Jason Campbell70 said:That's my point too.

Whether it's the last race or not, it's obvious Massa has no shot at the title. He can pad his win count or his total points, but hey, he's part of Ferrari, and Ferrari is here strictly for the championship.
Every single race matters for the title, whether it's the first one or the last.

It's just easier to see clearly once the season starts winding down.

It isn't exactly common.

Senna - Prost, back in '89—and we all know how peacefully that ended. 😁
Then maybe '96, which ended with a wheel flying off. The result of all that "teamwork"? Who knows.🤷

For example—in 2008, Kovalainen clearly let Hamilton past several times without even fighting. The result? A few extra points for Hamilton, and ultimately, Hamilton wins the championship by a single point. Can we call Hockenheim 2008 a key race of that season?

😁

Pretty much so.

2008 is perhaps the clearest example. Losing a wheel happens all the time in various sports, and I'm sure there are at least a dozen similar instances in F1 over the last few years, but this one clearly decided the champion. Whether it was intentional or not, we'll never truly know; we can only speculate (though it's certainly not the first time something like that has happened to Williams...).

@Gil

So, personally, I don't find it particularly charming when someone like Mark Webber decides to just dig his heels in and act all defiant... It doesn't make me respect him more as a person or a driver. If anything, it's quite the opposite. 🤷

cosmicridge5 said:I also like Button, and I can't wrap my head around McLaren's strategy, which says a lot. 😁

Regarding the team dynamic, I think they definitely favor Lewis. At least on an intimate level. 😁 I’m not saying they tell the drivers this openly or make it blatantly obvious, but I think it's definitely in the air. And look—the relationship (in terms of power and point gaps) between those two isn't even close to something like Massa and Alonso's. I believe McLaren expected Button to fall behind Lewis more significantly. It will be really interesting to see how things play out if they reach a situation where they actually *have* to help Lewis at Button's expense, which hasn't happened yet.

I suspect how much equality Button is 'allowed' will depend largely on how well he manages to push Lewis. I imagine if he weren't this close—if the gap between them were as obvious and massive as it is at Ferrari between Massa and Alonso—then Button would likely know his place too. 😁 In a situation like yesterday's, he might voluntarily 😉 offer less resistance to Lewis, allowing him to pass without having to issue an explicit order like they did to Massa, and without making the whole thing look as messy as it did.

One of Button's traits—and I'll call it a quality—is that the team's interests actually matter to him. He strikes me as an incredibly rational person who doesn't have ego issues. I think in a scenario like yesterday, he would realize that, for the sake of the team and the loyalty he seems to feel toward them, he doesn't need to defend his position tooth and nail. Unlike Massa, it would be clear to him what serves the team best and what the team legitimately expects from him. He wouldn't act foolishly or fight back so aggressively, only to end up embarrassing the team by forcing them to give him a direct order for something that should have been obvious. 🙄

I also feel for Massa that they had to say it to him. You know, the narrative sounds nice: "let them race, let him pass on track, blocking is cheating"—but when you look at the bigger picture, I don't think that mindset is right. From the perspective of the team, which the drivers are part of, that moment matters. They aren't just driving for themselves at the end of the day; they drive for the team. They should have some sense of belonging, respect, and 'loyalty' to that team, rather than focusing solely on their own selfish individual interests—at least when their own title chances are gone but the team's still remain.🤷 Don't forget there's a massive difference here because Button is still very much in the title hunt, whereas Massa isn't. So, I don't really buy your argument about him "defending his own title chances at all costs."

If I had been in Massa's shoes yesterday, I think I would have let my teammate through in that situation. Not obviously, but let's just say I wouldn't be defending myself quite as aggressively as if someone else were behind me. First off, I’d probably feel like it was my own fault for being such a huge distance behind in the points. It seems reasonable, and honestly fair—both to the team and the fans—to step aside for whoever actually still has a shot at the championship. To be honest, I’d feel like an irresponsible, selfish jerk if I were desperately fighting against my own teammate in a moment like that (especially knowing he's faster, and even if he is, it'll be hard for me to pass him anyway). It would feel like I was being selfish just to take first instead of second—even though being second doesn't realistically change my title hopes—and in doing so, ruining the team's last genuine chance to secure the Drivers' Championship 🤷

I suppose it just depends on your perspective and how you frame it in your head... but I view Formula 1 primarily as a team sport (regardless of the fact that only one driver can win the title). And again, Massa is out of the running here, which he himself has admitted—so in a team sport, I think different rules should apply, or at least ought to, compared to individual sports. 🤷 It reminds me of when soccer players get greedy and refuse to pass, trying to take shots from terrible, unrealistic positions instead... They end up missing, and they directly hurt the team. Personally, I find that ugly, selfish, and just plain wrong. 😳

Bottom line: having a Brazilian and a Spaniard on an Italian team is a disaster waiting to happen. It’s the perfect recipe for total chaos. When was the last time anyone speaking a Romance language actually won a title for Ferrari? Ask Juan Manuel Fangio back in 1956.

Basically, Ferrari isn't winning anything until they put someone like Jenson Button in the lead seat.

Jason Campbell70 said:That's my point too.

Whether it's the last race or not, it's obvious Massa has no shot at the title. He can pad his win count or his total points, but hey, he's part of Ferrari, and Ferrari is here strictly for the championship.
Every single race matters for the title, whether it's the first one or the last.

It's just easier to see clearly once the season starts winding down.

It isn't exactly common.

Senna - Prost, back in '89—and we all know how peacefully that ended. 😁
Then maybe '96, which ended with a wheel flying off. The result of all that "teamwork"? Who knows.🤷

For example—in 2008, Kovalainen clearly let Hamilton past several times without even fighting. The result? A few extra points for Hamilton, and ultimately, Hamilton wins the championship by a single point. Can we call Hockenheim 2008 a key race of that season?

😁

Why wouldn't you bring up 2007, when Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton finished 2nd and 3rd—basically stripping points from one another—only for them both to end up with 109 while Kimi took it with 110?

mistybear87 said:Pretty much so.

2008 is perhaps the clearest example. Losing a wheel happens all the time in various sports, and I'm sure there are at least a dozen similar instances in F1 over the last few years, but this one clearly decided the champion. Whether it was intentional or not, we'll never truly know; we can only speculate (though it's certainly not the first time something like that has happened to Williams...).

Even if they botched the wheel nut on purpose, any damage caused only hurts their own side.

They held everything in their hands, much like Ferrari did yesterday.

And they chose what was best for the team.

Did anyone lose out? No.

I have to say, I am eagerly anticipating the final races of the season.

It’s going to be a dark comedy listening to the excuses race engineers cook up to explain away slowing down or letting someone through. 🤣

So far, we've heard "oil pressure" and "fuel saving." 🎉

redheron12 said:Why wouldn't you bring up 2007, when Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton finished 2nd and 3rd—basically stripping points from one another—only for them both to end up with 109 while Kimi took it with 110?

It’s pure incompetence within a team, much like what we're seeing at Red Bull this year.

When that happened a couple of years ago, I felt the exact same way.

You have two massive egos in the garage, constantly clashing and sabotaging each other, while the third driver cruises to the championship.

That's exactly how this season seems to be playing out so far.🤣