GP Germany - 07/25/2010

Joshua Newman2 said:There is a distinction here, and I will attempt to explain it: we can speculate that McLaren, Williams, or anyone else employs team orders; people can claim it and be certain, but they don't *know*. But when something like this actually happens, then it becomes a fact. And that knowledge "kills" the sport, the team, and the driver's integrity. Alonso might win the championship now, but he’ll always face the criticism that he couldn't beat his own teammate, and wouldn't have become champion if he hadn't been forced to move out of the way. That doesn't just cast a shadow on the title; it plunges it into total darkness. As for Massa, after this, he can talk all he wants about his form, tire temperature issues, or his ambition and readiness to win, but after yesterday, he's nothing more than a water carrier. Until he moves to another team, nobody will ever take him seriously again. From yesterday onward, his role is simply to fill the grid and look after Fernando Alonso's interests.

Did Button let Hamilton through, or did Hamilton overtake him? If we knew for a fact that he let him through, Button would be no different from Barrichello to Schumacher, Massa to Alonso, or some IT geek serving a powerful leader in a prison cell: just a tool meant to move when things get uncomfortable. But we don't know. We can only assume one way or the other, so Button still maintains some semblance of driver integrity, and Hamilton, if he becomes champion, will have the integrity of a true champion. That is the difference!

I’m sure you all remember how thrilled Alonso seemed just recently when they extended Massa's contract. Well, it turns out that wasn't just coincidence; with that deal, Massa essentially agreed to play his part. Unfortunately, since Ferrari clearly hasn't figured out how to get their actors to deliver a convincing performance, they really should have looked for a number two driver who wouldn't occasionally trip up Alonso. This current setup is easily the worst-case scenario.

So—the principle is fine, but the execution is flawed.

Why the complaints about morality, then?

Jason Campbell70 said:So—the principle is fine, but the execution is flawed.

Why the complaints about morality, then?

No, Jason, the principle itself isn't okay. I'm just saying that nobody is a thief until they're caught red-handed. In their case, they were caught, repeatedly. As for everyone else, it's all just talk.

Chris Ortiz said:He did, and honestly, the whole thing is just a total comedy, albeit with slightly better acting.

Exactly.

But unfortunately, it seems like better acting is what’s actually valued around here. 😬

I was honestly just imagining what yesterday's press conference would have looked like if this had happened at McLaren. They probably wouldn't have allowed any statements that halfway admitted it was an error. Instead, 😉 Lewis would have recited some long, complicated, and heavily gestured story about how: Jenson was just slower, you know! And my team notified me that he was slower, because naturally, I'm constantly getting updates from my team regarding these things... And I really have to hand it to the team, they did a tremendous job, the whole crew, working day and night so that Jenson and I—who are great friends and have immense mutual respect and appreciation for one another... you know, that's why we're world champions, and that's why things like what happened to Red Bull in Turkey don't happen here... Yeah, basically, Jenson was slower, and then I pulled up alongside him out there and he was like, look, it went like this: he was right here, and I already had my front wheels right here, and then he naturally made sure to leave me enough space, you understand? Because that's just how we operate, we respect each other, and that's why we're champions. Thanks to the entire team, I'm thrilled with this amazing win and I think I can honestly say it was my best drive ever! Jenson was also fantastic! I don't think I've ever found anyone harder to overtake... yet we handled everything perfectly... A fantastic result for the whole team! Trept Trept...

😍

Joshua Newman2 said:There is a distinction here, and I will attempt to explain it: we can speculate that McLaren, Williams, or anyone else employs team orders; people can claim it and be certain, but they don't *know*. But when something like this actually happens, then it becomes a fact. And that knowledge "kills" the sport, the team, and the driver's integrity. Alonso might win the championship now, but he’ll always face the criticism that he couldn't beat his own teammate, and wouldn't have become champion if he hadn't been forced to move out of the way. That doesn't just cast a shadow on the title; it plunges it into total darkness. As for Massa, after this, he can talk all he wants about his form, tire temperature issues, or his ambition and readiness to win, but after yesterday, he's nothing more than a water carrier. Until he moves to another team, nobody will ever take him seriously again. From yesterday onward, his role is simply to fill the grid and look after Fernando Alonso's interests.

Did Button let Hamilton through, or did Hamilton overtake him? If we knew for a fact that he let him through, Button would be no different from Barrichello to Schumacher, Massa to Alonso, or some IT geek serving a powerful leader in a prison cell: just a tool meant to move when things get uncomfortable. But we don't know. We can only assume one way or the other, so Button still maintains some semblance of driver integrity, and Hamilton, if he becomes champion, will have the integrity of a true champion. That is the difference!

I’m sure you all remember how thrilled Alonso seemed just recently when they extended Massa's contract. Well, it turns out that wasn't just coincidence; with that deal, Massa essentially agreed to play his part. Unfortunately, since Ferrari clearly hasn't figured out how to get their actors to deliver a convincing performance, they really should have looked for a number two driver who wouldn't occasionally trip up Alonso. This current setup is easily the worst-case scenario.

Integrity is my foot. Even the guy who took the 2008 title didn't have much integrity during those first couple of days right after Glock-gate, but all that fades fast. In the end, you're just left with names on a piece of paper, yet people still insist on saying he decorated himself with that 2008 World Champion title.

Besides, where was Senna's integrity back in 1990? Or Schumacher's in 1994? It doesn't matter; it's all in the stats, and that’s what counts. It's not "Schumacher is a six-time champ plus one questionable win," it's just seven-time champ. Statistics are relentless.

Joshua Newman2 said:No, Jason, the principle itself isn't okay. I'm just saying that nobody is a thief until they're caught red-handed. In their case, they were caught, repeatedly. As for everyone else, it's all just talk.

Fine, if that's how you want to play it—Kovalainen never once let Hamilton through, McLaren is absolutely flawless, and Coulthard just happened to have his shoe catch in the brake pedal a few times.

BTW

Joshua Newman2 said:a powerful tech geek leader of the Aryans

Were you referring to one of the more prominent members here on the forum, including me? 🙂

Champions are remembered, but this will be forgotten just like those events at the same track two years ago.

Jason Campbell70 said:Fine, if that's how you want to play it—Kovalainen never once let Hamilton through, McLaren is absolutely flawless, and Coulthard just happened to have his shoe catch in the brake pedal a few times.

BTW

Were you referring to one of the more prominent members here on the forum, including me? 🙂

Champions are remembered, but this will be forgotten just like those events at the same track two years ago.

So, are you actually some kind of tech geek? 🤣 😂 😁

Joshua Newman2 said:No, Jason, the principle itself isn't okay. I'm just saying that nobody is a thief until they're caught red-handed. In their case, they were caught, repeatedly. As for everyone else, it's all just talk.

That’s not quite how it works, Gil. Whether you're a thief or not doesn't depend on whether you got caught; it depends on whether you actually stole something. 😁 You become a thief the second you take something, not when the cops show up at your door. 😁

Maybe McLaren managed to pull the wool over your eyes with their little games, but I guess it didn't work on me. 😬

And honestly, the idea that you have to be caught red-handed to be considered guilty isn't even legally sound. There's such a thing as a preponderance of evidence, which essentially constitutes proof. 😁

They were caught, more than once.

It’s not that they were ''caught,'' it’s more like they weren't even trying to hide. 🤷 They did openly what we all know everyone else does behind closed doors. 🤷

In my book, a person who openly admits they're a jerk isn't any less 'immoral' than someone pretending to be a saint while everyone on the block knows they're anything but. 😬

Honestly, it feels like you lost your mind back in your glory days 😬

There’s nothing but sparks flying in this place 😁

cosmicridge5 said:😁

I found it quite interesting—and honestly kind of hilarious—to watch the post-race comments on US news yesterday regarding this team order situation. While almost everyone involved, from Schumi to Coulthard, seemed to think it was just business as usual—that regardless of how it looked to us, it's perfectly normal since the team's interest comes first— only Horner seemed genuinely outraged by Ferrari's move. 🤣He just kept repeating it in shock: "But that was a team order! They told Massa to let him through! That's forbidden! They actually told him! We saw it!" 🤣 And he had a face like this -> 😕😕

Yeah, it seems like Red Bull is the only one that doesn't play that game. They just sit there, tapping their feet nervously, helplessly watching their drivers go wild until they eventually crash into each other. 😬

It really shows how green they are... sure, they might be more "innocent" than the others, but that automatically makes them "dumber," funnier, and less successful. And that's exactly why I'd say it's only because of that—they lose both the constructors' and the drivers' titles.

And if, as Schumi so eloquently put it, the sole goal and reason everyone is there is the title, then Red Bull's management philosophy deserves ridicule (which they get regularly) rather than praise. 😬

I wonder what would happen if they actually tried telling a driver to let another pass just once... it would be absolute chaos! If one Webber loses his mind and says all that just because a new wing was given to the lead driver—which is a much smaller issue than being told to yield position on track—imagine the meltdown.😁

Teams that operate like that don't stand a chance at winning a title. As we’re seeing—even when they have a significantly faster car... They’ll always lose out to the ones who traded chunks of their integrity for pure efficiency. I guess Formula 1 is just built that way, and honestly, it always has been.

Most world champions usually end up being the ones who are best at dancing right on the edge of what's considered moral. 😬

Everything here is spot on, word for word. 👍

Look, personally, I'm not that bothered by Red Bull's messiness. Screw it, they have the drivers they have, and they're the ones who "raised" them—that's their problem.

Of course it wouldn't work with them. If they actually tried it, Webber would've been kicked to the curb last year, Kovalainen would be driving an RB, and Webber would be stuck in a Trulli's car—it's obvious as day.

But that's not the point. Honestly, I don't care if they do it one way or the other. I like them better this way, though I'd have loved to see Vettel win the title.

One thing that really pisses me off, though, is the moralizing fans and even worse, the obnoxious journalists. They attack Red Bull for a perfectly logical decision and some of Helmut's comments, yet they stay silent and smirk about this Ferrari crap. 🙄

I mean, look at our guys—Blažičko is talking trash about the US vs. Chile match and trashing Red Bull, yet he’s staying dead silent about this whole Ferrari mess.👎

Honestly, I'm just sick of this double standard.

Look, Ferrari doing what's best for them is totally fine by me; it makes sense and I don't have an issue with that. But Alonso playing games while the media stays quiet? That really gets under my skin.🙂

It’s honestly hilarious how everyone is piling on Ferrari right now, when every single team does the exact same thing. You see the fans and even the leaders from other teams dragging them, but their excuses—the whole "low oil pressure" or "saving fuel" routine—are identical to what Ferrari goes through. It just seems like the Italians haven't quite mastered the art of using the same secret codes yet.

Maria Nelson2 said:Honestly, it feels like you lost your mind back in your glory days 😬

There’s nothing but sparks flying in this place 😁

If only it happened just once 😬 😬 😬

cosmicsailor11 said:It’s honestly hilarious how everyone is piling on Ferrari right now, when every single team does the exact same thing. You see the fans and even the leaders from other teams dragging them, but their excuses—the whole "low oil pressure" or "saving fuel" routine—are identical to what Ferrari goes through. It just seems like the Italians haven't quite mastered the art of using the same secret codes yet.

If Red Bull is the only one getting blamed, it’s because they're the only ones not actually performing. ☕If they
actually performed, they would've taken the title last year, and honestly, they'd be sitting on a mountain of cash this year too.

As for the other teams, who cares? We're only watching the top three contenders for the title anyway. Two of those rely on team orders, while the third one doesn't—and that third one happens to have the fastest car and still isn't winning.

Enough for the smart people.☕

Pato, don't let them get to you... 🙂>

Alonso is the champ... 🙏 Alonso is the champ... 🙏>

The folks over at the Red Bull and McLaren camps are totally freaking out (and honestly, I can't even blame them). Now that Alonso has become their absolute biggest threat for the title, they’re scrambling to trash anything he does. It’s hilarious because they’re trying to paint his moves as shady, even though those exact same things were happening within their own teams earlier this season. 😁

Jack Kelly5, comparing this situation to a group of unfaithful partners is a pretty convincing analogy, and I have to hand it to you—I agree with that point. 🙏

But look at it this way: I’ve always had a soft spot for Button. He reminds me of Prost, and I really respect how he carries himself with such class, proving that raw aggression and sheer speed aren't the only ways to win. Now, the big question: Is he actually Hamilton's wingman? A lot of people swear he is, but personally, I don't buy it. I don't think anyone at McLaren ever sat him down and said, "Look, once you catch up to Hamilton, you need to step aside because we're banking on him for the title, while you're just here to play team player—even if your mathematical odds of winning the championship are just as slim." If I knew for a fact, if it were proven, that Button was intentionally playing the supporting role at the expense of his own shot at the title, I’d be the first one to write him off as a true athlete and driver.

cosmicsailor11 said:It’s honestly hilarious how everyone is piling on Ferrari right now, when every single team does the exact same thing. You see the fans and even the leaders from other teams dragging them, but their excuses—the whole "low oil pressure" or "saving fuel" routine—are identical to what Ferrari goes through. It just seems like the Italians haven't quite mastered the art of using the same secret codes yet.

Just more proof of how amateurish they are over there... I mean, at least pull it off professionally instead of making the whole world laugh (or cringe, depending on how you look at it). Honestly, it doesn't surprise me at all that they asked Felipe baby to let Alonso through. But for God's sake, could they at least execute it differently to spare themselves and the viewers from that pathetic display from the moment they stepped out of the cars until the cameras cut after the press conference...

cosmicridge5 said:That’s not quite how it works, Gil. Whether you're a thief or not doesn't depend on whether you got caught; it depends on whether you actually stole something. 😁 You become a thief the second you take something, not when the cops show up at your door. 😁

Maybe McLaren managed to pull the wool over your eyes with their little games, but I guess it didn't work on me. 😬

And honestly, the idea that you have to be caught red-handed to be considered guilty isn't even legally sound. There's such a thing as a preponderance of evidence, which essentially constitutes proof. 😁

They were caught, more than once.

It’s not that they were ''caught,'' it’s more like they weren't even trying to hide. 🤷 They did openly what we all know everyone else does behind closed doors. 🤷

In my book, a person who openly admits they're a jerk isn't any less 'immoral' than someone pretending to be a saint while everyone on the block knows they're anything but. 😬

Gossip and hearsay simply aren't the same thing as hard evidence.

Edward Howard2 said:Pato, don't let them get to you... 🙂>

Alonso is the champ... 🙏 Alonso is the champ... 🙏>

The folks over at the Red Bull and McLaren camps are totally freaking out (and honestly, I can't even blame them). Now that Alonso has become their absolute biggest threat for the title, they’re scrambling to trash anything he does. It’s hilarious because they’re trying to paint his moves as shady, even though those exact same things were happening within their own teams earlier this season. 😁

Whoa, whoa, hold on 🎉

😁

Come on, get involved a little, I could use some backup here 🤣

stormybadger8 said:If RB, the only ones being accused of this, actually worked
to make things happen, they would have taken the title last year, and honestly, they'd have it in the bag this year too.

Do you really think their title would be even slightly tainted if they had won it using team orders?

Well, RB is the perfect example of why team orders actually make sense. 👍

Joshua Newman2 said:So, are you actually some kind of tech geek? 🤣 😂 😁

Who's who? That's what the "Biggest Troll on forum.hr" title tells you perfectly. 😎 🙏

stormybadger8 said:Everything here is spot on, word for word. 👍

Look, personally, I'm not that bothered by Red Bull's messiness. Screw it, they have the drivers they have, and they're the ones who "raised" them—that's their problem.

Of course it wouldn't work with them. If they actually tried it, Webber would've been kicked to the curb last year, Kovalainen would be driving an RB, and Webber would be stuck in a Trulli's car—it's obvious as day.

But that's not the point. Honestly, I don't care if they do it one way or the other. I like them better this way, though I'd have loved to see Vettel win the title.

One thing that really pisses me off, though, is the moralizing fans and even worse, the obnoxious journalists. They attack Red Bull for a perfectly logical decision and some of Helmut's comments, yet they stay silent and smirk about this Ferrari crap. 🙄

I mean, look at our guys—Blažičko is talking trash about the US vs. Chile match and trashing Red Bull, yet he’s staying dead silent about this whole Ferrari mess.👎

Honestly, I'm just sick of this double standard.

Look, Ferrari doing what's best for them is totally fine by me; it makes sense and I don't have an issue with that. But Alonso playing games while the media stays quiet? That really gets under my skin.🙂

What should Alonso have said at the press conference? "Yes, it was your order, just ask the boss to let me through." Then they actually would've punished them. What I'm seeing here is just typical Italian sloppiness. Instead of planning it out ahead of time and masking it like the English do, they execute it with the same level of incompetence seen in their pit stops during the pre-Schumacher era—you know, when they couldn't even tighten a wheel and Mansell ends up sliding into a wall on three wheels.

Even the journalists at the BBC are out here defending them (give me a break!).

cosmicsailor11 said:It’s honestly hilarious how everyone is piling on Ferrari right now, when every single team does the exact same thing. You see the fans and even the leaders from other teams dragging them, but their excuses—the whole "low oil pressure" or "saving fuel" routine—are identical to what Ferrari goes through. It just seems like the Italians haven't quite mastered the art of using the same secret codes yet.

Yeah, let's slap them with some penalties since they're sloppy and disorganized. Plus, they aren't even cheating well enough. Honestly, rigging a race isn't even unsportsmanlike—it's just optimizing results. Like I said before, what's the point of having two drivers on a team if they both have to work against the overall result?

Look, I gotta mention Massa. He had his shot at the title back in 2008, but he choked because he just didn't have the backbone to handle the pressure. You can't keep handing him opportunities forever. And look at Barrichello—he was the number two guy at Ferrari, then last year he was supposedly on equal footing, and what did he actually achieve? Absolutely nothing.

Edward Howard2 said:Pato, don't let them get to you... 🙂>

Alonso is the champ... 🙏 Alonso is the champ... 🙏>

The folks over at the Red Bull and McLaren camps are totally freaking out (and honestly, I can't even blame them). Now that Alonso has become their absolute biggest threat for the title, they’re scrambling to trash anything he does. It’s hilarious because they’re trying to paint his moves as shady, even though those exact same things were happening within their own teams earlier this season. 😁

Big signature🙏
Next up is Canada, which feels very similar to Monaco, and everyone knows exactly who the main contender is. 🙂