Are doctors more prone to "negative careerism"?

Lawrence Robinson11 said:I’m honestly just glad I could validate the pre-existing bias you all seem to have regarding doctors...
and, yeah, doctors are kind of a big deal—not that I’m saying they’re gods or anything.
but it seems like you guys get way more triggered by them having a higher social standing than they actually deserve, rather than just accepting it.

So, sure, they make the most money because they’ve put in the most schooling. Bravo. But apparently, you think there shouldn't be any link between how much you learn and what you get paid...!

Well, you better hope it doesn't work that way, because one day you might find yourself relying on a whole crowd of people just like me.

😵 .....just a hopeless case of pure stupidity....like I said, a degree doesn't automatically make you smart....if you're heading to MIT thinking otherwise, you're wasting your time.
And honestly, thank god I won't have to rely on a pack of idiots who just echo each other like this. The only people I'll ever need are actual, decent doctors, if you can even find any left.

Lawrence Robinson11 said:Wow, look at how many patients I have on my schedule today! :happily rubs hands together:

Honestly, honey, I doubt you’ll ever make it much further than a med student.

I actually feel bad for you;
you're such a pity.

Scott Allen10 said:😵 .....just a hopeless case of pure stupidity....like I said, college doesn't actually teach you how to be smart....if that's what you're looking for at Salad, you're wasting your time.
And thank goodness I don't have to rely on a pack of idiots who all think exactly alike. The only people I care about relying on are actual, competent doctors, assuming you can even find any.

I'm going to Salad for the prestige, not for a brain upgrade🙄

I mean, when things get really rough for you, are you seriously going to demand a signed note from a doctor just to prove they aren't an idiot?
Who exactly is going to give you that?

Stop talking nonsense.
Just accept the fact that you're eventually going to run into a fool like me, and when you do, you'll just have to blink, shrug, and look the other way.

Jose Miller3 said:Can I just point out that I sincerely hope Lawrence Robinson11 is joking? Or maybe he's just some kind of clone.

I'm of the same opinion. 😢

Lawrence Robinson11 said:Let me be clear: I feel nothing but pity for you if I’m just some "failed med student," because sooner or later, people like you will be at my mercy.

I certainly hope that won't happen... there are plenty of brilliant medical students out there, and perhaps, in time, you'll gain some common sense too.

So, listen, "future doctor": medical school is grueling, but anyone with enough grit and persistence can finish it (high intelligence isn't strictly mandatory, though it helps, as it does everywhere else)... however, if you actually want to apply that knowledge effectively later on, you really ought to be a bit sharper. More importantly, you need to drop this arrogant attitude that everyone will be dependent on you; you'll encounter countless situations where you are simply powerless. That old adage "nature cures, the physician heals" remains as relevant as ever. 😉

On a different note, I have an architecture student in my house, and I can attest that it is an incredibly demanding field... the study methods are unique, but the workload is intense.
I also have a civil engineer in the family; his work is heavy with responsibility and stress, and lives potentially depend on his structural calculations... much like how my own life depends on the expertise and accountability of my mechanic.

Off topic
🙂Casey Palmer5, what kind of advantages do medical professionals have at the bank? 😕Why am I in the dark here? 😁Explain it to me via PM.

goldengull3 said:I haven't really noticed doctors being any different from the rest of us; they aren't fundamentally different from a bus driver or a university professor. It’s just that because health matters so much to everyone, if a doctor has a crappy personality, we tend to remember that way more than we would a cashier or a guy repairing our washing machine.

In my opinion, med school is incredibly tough, and being a doctor is an immensely responsible—yet underpaid—job when you're working in the public healthcare system.

As for social standing, doctors and judges are highly respected in almost every society, maybe even a bit more so here than in the US.

Honestly, this is the one voice of reason amidst all the noise and chaos I've encountered here... 😍
Look, I finished med school, did my residency, completed my fellowship, and earned my academic credentials... so I feel somewhat "qualified" to weigh in with some actual objectivity:

1. Med school is only as hard or as easy as the individual student makes it and how seriously they take their studies. Personally, I know plenty of absolute morons who managed to graduate, and quite a few geniuses who never did. Being a great student doesn't guarantee you'll be a great doctor, and vice versa. Of course, there are exceptions. For instance, a close friend of mine, who is now a top-tier neurosurgeon, was actually pretty mediocre—and let's just say handsome—but he was a bit dim as a student. But during his residency, he clearly "found his groove," and now he's such a specialist that I'd trust him to operate on me any day, 😬

2. Regarding social status—give me a break. We all know who actually holds the prestige and power in our society: the people with the money! And most doctors definitely don't fall into that category. Sure, we make decent, respectable salaries compared to the national average, but we are nowhere near the kind of income that buys real power.
The real "VIPs" in society are the drug dealers, the smugglers, the nouveau riche, and the old money elites. I was recently at a gathering where there was this guy who owned an optical shop (I'm not looking down on opticians, don't get me wrong... I've actually written about them on my blog if you want to read it), but he had this suspicious amount of cash. Despite that, lawyers, engineers, economists... people with PhDs were practically bowing down to him. Should I mention that the guy was, by the way, extremely rude and vulgar? 😈

3. Is there a bad apple in every bunch? Absolutely. There are lazy, corrupt, incompetent, and clueless doctors just like there are in any other profession. But that doesn't give anyone the right to generalize and trash an entire profession because of a few individuals. Not every priest is a predator, not every teacher is a sadist, and not every cop is ignorant or illiterate. That's the very definition of discrimination. People will always hate us just because we happen to be doctors.
And yet, those very same people won't hesitate for a second to come running to us when they need help.
If they actually remembered that and showed a little respect, we wouldn't be in this mess. 😎

Anyway, nothing much has changed in the twenty-five years I've spent directly or indirectly within the healthcare system, so I don't expect things to look any different in the twenty-five years left until I hit retirement... :ziba :
If I didn't love what I do, there'd be no point in doing it.
There have always been idiots and there always will be (Maurizio Costanzo has a great saying about this... he often says "La madre dei cretini è sempre incinta"... basically, the mother of fools is always pregnant...),
And honestly, life just keeps rolling along—so we probably shouldn't hold our breath expecting things in this country to actually start making sense anytime soon...

I’ve known quite a few doctors since my college days, and I think you hit the nail on the head: those who commit to that grueling, marathon stretch of schooling basically know what they're signing up for. They understand from day one that landing a decent job will be an uphill battle, especially in a major hub like Washington, D.C. Getting into a residency—specifically the specialty you actually care about—is a nightmare because most of the prime spots are essentially grandfathered in for the children of various hospital directors. They know they’ll have to play the political game, kissing up to the higher-ups and occasionally stabbing colleagues in the back just to get ahead. In about 90% of the cases I've seen, what keeps them going is the allure of becoming part of that inner circle—those prestigious, powerful, untouchable types.

As for the patients? Most of these doctors couldn't care less. Some would happily use people as lab rats; it's rare to see any actual empathy. You really have to sit there in silence while they recount stories over coffee, laughing about the ridiculous things patients have done. To them, a patient isn't a person anymore—they're just... well, some sort of lower life form. Just annoying pests from a desperate crowd looking for something from the "distinguished" doctors.

When you hear the stories—surgeons grabbing drinks right before an operation, or patients lying wide open on the operating table for ages because some director is stuck in administrative limbo, or even how they keep people hospitalized longer than necessary just to bill the Social Security Administration for extra bed days... honestly, it's revolting. 👎

granitebadger25 said:Lettuce, what kind of edge do medical professionals actually have at the bank? 🙂 I honestly haven't a clue. 😕 Shoot me a DM and walk me through it. 😁

They get assigned a private banker. It’s basically just a persistent pest who calls you constantly to push credit cards and loans you never asked for. Anyone the bank deems "wealthy enough" gets one of these people. I used to have one myself, and frankly, I'm glad that chapter is closed.

It’s like walking into a grocery store:
customer: "Can I just get a gallon of milk?"
private banker: "Well, it's not quite that simple, but for someone of your stature, we can make an exception. Just give me fifteen minutes to check on that—in the meantime, would you be interested in 40 pounds of bread? Oh, and some cat food?" 😬

Man, seriously... Justin Fox, how on earth does someone as chill as you end up getting harassed by some incompetent personal banker?! :asshole:

Look, if you want, I can give you the contact info for my private banker. She’s honestly incredible—she handles everything for me without me even having to lift a finger. We're talking investment funds, supplemental retirement accounts, moving money between different currencies, setting up CDs, tracking interest rates... all that tedious stuff. 🥳 🙂 🙂 ☕

Honestly, life is complicated enough for us doctors as it is, especially when we don't have a competent banker looking out for our interests.... 🙂

Since you’re already talking about banking, let me tell you: having an economics degree combined with a career in finance—specifically in roles dealing with equities and mutual funds—is a relatively smooth path toward securing a decent salary and those sweet, preferential mortgage rates. If you actually perform well and climb the ladder within five years, say before you hit thirty, you can reach a compensation level that rivals what a tenured professor with a PhD would earn back at MIT.

The thing I can't stand about doctors—and look, I know they aren't all like this—is that whole attitude they have toward everyone else. They’re fully aware that sooner or later, everybody ends up coming to them for something, so they start acting like they're better than the rest of us. It’s just like how Lawrence Robinson11 acts sometimes. It's obnoxious.
And they just conveniently forget, I guess, that it was the government that footed the bill for their entire education.

Kyle Nelson2 said:What I really can't stand about doctors—and I know they aren't all like this—is how they view themselves compared to everyone else. They’re fully aware that sooner or later, everybody ends up coming to them for something, so they start acting superior, kind of like how
Lawrence Robinson11 acts. They seem to forget, for instance, that the government is actually the one that invested in their education.

First off, the government didn't exactly "invest" in my education; I did. I mean, if you look at it that way, almost nobody would be responsible for their own achievements, right? Plus, my mom and dad paid their taxes to fund the budget, so...
Furthermore, I don't put myself above anyone. But since this whole thread is just one big provocation filled with nothing but prejudice and sweeping generalizations, I guess I'll respond in kind. If we're going to sink to a certain level, fine by me. I can play that game too.

Honestly, only someone blinded by bias could take my comments literally as "you'll need me eventually" instead of realizing I'm just echoing the exact conclusion he already reached. He just refuses to stop stereotyping every single doctor into this worst-case scenario mold. If he actually wanted to avoid that, he wouldn't have started a thread like this or kept posting in it (he's already second in line for being a health hazard, let's be real)... so, I don't think people are talking about specific doctors here; they're talking about the majority, regardless of how often they see a physician...
I mean, just look at the opening post of this thread. What kind of sweeping statements is that guy trying to make?! Seriously?! 🙄 😲

If I was being rude the whole time, then yeah, I was. But that's no secret. However, the rudeness in about 90% of the other posts here is being totally glossed over. Like when people claim primary care physicians are basically useless. Only a frustrated idiot who had already formed an opinion before this debate even started could say that. Or the claim that only 10% of medical students do it because they love it, while 90% do it just for the prestige. All of those are incredibly rude statements, but I'm not expected to sit there and take them just to prove I'm not one of those arrogant, stuck-up med students... I mean, you all clearly think 90% of them are arrogant anyway, so why should I bother being humble? It won't change your mind, and you clearly don't deserve polite posts.

As for whether doctors are worth more or not, discussing that at a "doctor" level is just ridiculous. A person can be absolute trash whether they're a doctor or a garbage man, and vice versa.

But the thing is, these kinds of posts happen not because people are annoyed that doctors *think* they're worth more, but because they're annoyed that doctors are *treated* as if they're worth more than they actually are—which, by extension, implies the doctors themselves think they're worth more than everyone else.

It didn't bother me how anyone was treated before I decided to study medicine, and it doesn't bother me now. I'm happy with my choice, both then and now. And obviously, that doesn't apply to the people talking here, because it's clear they think they're worth more than the way they're treated...

But hey, let's take an example like Taylor Swift—she definitely has more value, right? And nobody complains about that because she actually does provide more value... right? Aha! So the hierarchy of who is worth more and less definitely exists, and you guys keep pushing it, basing it on professional status rather than actual human value...

It boils down to this: there are professions that hold more value, but doctors aren't one of them. Doctors don't suffer nearly as much during their studies. I mean, you all know three med students and four doctors, and you've seen the covers of their textbooks, but somehow you also "know" how hard it is to be a pro skier, so sure. YES. Taylor Swift has more value, and you're allowed to think that, but NO—doctors aren't worth more than they think, nor are they worth more than the way society treats them.

Lawrence Robinson11 said:...

What is the actual value of a single human life to you? What kind of metrics would you even use to measure that?

And honestly, I’m genuinely curious about what prompted you to dig this thread back up; nobody seemed to give it a second thought until you decided to stir the pot. It felt like it was just about to slip into total obscurity on page two, too. Or perhaps you think we all missed the fact that this is nothing more than a blatant provocation?

A quick question for the moderators—why aren't threads like this just wiped clean? Is there some perceived connection to health or something that makes people think it belongs here?

Arslan said:They have private bankers

...so what’s the end game? ☕ Only people with enough juice to make a major firm like JPMorgan assign them a dedicated wealth manager actually get those perks—you hit the nail on the head there. It’s usually some high-flying surgeon or something along those lines...

Lawrence Robinson11 said:And don't even get me started on how I can barely miss even one month!

hehe, kind of like us psych majors... oh wait... does that actually mean my major is hard?? 😬

anyway... I honestly think they have a pretty sweet social standing (way better than some other professions, for sure)

but man, let me tell you a story about this one doctor—who happens to be my doctor, though not for very long anymore
so basically, this woman CANNOT write. Like, she writes in such an extreme, ultimate, totally unreadable way that if you weren't sitting right there in her exam room hearing her say something like "you'll be getting some Tylenol," you wouldn't have a clue what the prescription said. Every single time, the ladies at the CVS pharmacy lose their minds and they always end up asking me, "Is this really Tylenol or what?"
Well, one day I'm just waiting in line, and this super angry guy storms up to the nurse's station demanding to see the doctor. He starts yelling right in her face, telling her she's illiterate and needs to actually learn how to write (which, let's be real, she probably should since her handwriting is straight-up hieroglyphics) and demands she write him a new script and a referral. (Of course, the pharmacy staff had already sent him away because they couldn't read it either). Naturally, the doctor took it super personally because—and I am quoting her here—“she studied for ten whole years, so how dare he suggest she can't write when she graduated from medical school!" She refused to give him the new script, so she called security (the guy was being a bit aggressive), then security called the cops, and eventually, they all sort of reached a compromise to just give him the new prescription.

But seriously, the woman absolutely cannot write.
Yeah... it was honestly wild watching her insist that her writing is perfectly legible and that she's literate just because she finished med school, and then refuse to write anything more clearly just because SHE GRADUATED FROM MEDICAL SCHOOL.
God help us with doctors like that!

Dennis Torres said:Heh, well... who else is stuck in psychology with me? Oh, wait... does this actually mean my major is getting too hard for me? I guess maybe it does. 😬

Are you actually being an idiot, or do you just lack basic reading comprehension? It’s honestly easier than having to show up to every single thing every single day. You get what I'm saying, right?

Ugh, honestly, it feels like everyone and their mother is studying psychology these days... I guess it’s just the trend, right?

Honestly, if we’re talking about people just spitting in the wind, I feel like half the people currently enrolled in psychology programs have absolutely zero natural talent for it. I mean, maybe it's just my opinion, but it really feels that way sometimes. You can study all the textbooks you want, but you can't exactly teach that innate intuition, right? It's a bit of a wild thought, I guess.

Anyway... I guess you could say they hold a pretty decent position in the corporate world. It feels like their standing is actually quite a bit higher than some other professions, if you ask me.

So, I was just thinking—and maybe I’m totally off base here, but bear with me—is it just me, or does someone like Janica Kostelić having more social clout as an athlete than a doctor in this country feel a bit... skewed? It's like, you'd think medical expertise would carry more weight in our society, right? But instead, we end up treating elite Olympians like they're untouchable icons while doctors just kind of blend into the background. I guess that's just how the hierarchy works now, though I find it all a little strange.
So, what exactly are you all doing here? Since when did you guys suddenly become some kind of authority on who gets to be at the top of the social ladder and who stays at the bottom? I mean, seriously... maybe you think you're deciding people's status now? I guess it's just funny to me.
And yeah, I mean, they definitely hold more leverage in certain sectors where education is basically the golden ticket. But honestly, what's even weird about that? Is there actually anyone out there truly profiting from this setup? I guess it depends on how you look at it, maybe.

Well, I suppose I should tell you all a story about this one doctor—she was actually my physician for a little while, though not for very long.
So, this doctor... honestly, she can barely write a coherent sentence, let alone a prescription. It’s just absolute chaos on the page. I mean, if you weren't standing right there in her exam room at the clinic hearing her mumble something like, "you'll be getting some Dabroston," you wouldn't have a prayer of deciphering that scribble. It’s just illegible. Every single time we go to the CVS, the pharmacists look like they’re having a minor existential crisis trying to read it. They always end up grabbing my arm and asking, "Is this really supposed to be Dabroston?" It's a total mess, I guess.
So, I’m standing there waiting in line, right? And suddenly, this incredibly irate guy storms into my sister’s pharmacy, demanding to see the doctor immediately. He starts yelling at her face, telling her she’s practically illiterate and needs to actually learn how to write—which, honestly, might be fair because her handwriting is basically just illegible scribbles anyway. He was demanding she rewrite his prescription and his medical instructions right then and there. Of course, the ladies working at the pharmacy counter had to turn him away because they couldn't even make out what he was talking about! The doctor felt completely insulted, though. She was like, "How dare you tell me I can't write when I spent ten years in med school?" I mean, I get being offended, but maybe take it down a notch? Anyway, she refused to give him the new script, so she ended up calling security. The guy was getting pretty aggressive, which obviously escalated things, so then the police were called. In the end, they all kind of reached some sort of tense compromise where they finally just gave him the prescription. What a mess.

Well, I guess it’s pretty obvious that she just hasn't mastered the art of writing. Honestly, her prose is just... well, it's nonexistent. Maybe she should stick to something else? I don't know.
It’s honestly kind of wild to me how she can look someone in the eye and insist her handwriting is perfectly legible just because she has that medical degree. Like, okay, so you graduated from Johns Hopkins—congratulations, really—but that doesn't mean your prescription should look like a bunch of random squiggles. I guess some people think having all those letters after their name somehow excuses them from being able to write clearly, but maybe, just maybe, basic legibility is still a thing? It's just funny how she uses the degree as a shield for the messy script.
Good heavens, please, just protect documents like that at all costs.

I actually had this one therapist once who was just... I don't know, completely oblivious? It was like she couldn't even see that she was projecting every single one of her own frustrations onto me. Honestly, I’m convinced she only signed up for her psychology degree because she has a mountain of her own unresolved issues to deal with. And don't even get me started on her actual work ethic—she was absolutely terrible at her job. She didn't help me with my problems one bit; instead, her mind would just wander off every two minutes while I was mid-session. I really have to wonder what kind of standards they use when handing out those degrees these days.
Honestly, I feel like every single psychologist out there is just total garbage...
I mean, you honestly get such a massive leg up in society when you're a psychologist. You end up getting invited to guest on shows like Big Brother, while everyone else—you know, the regular non-psychologists—just ends up stuck waiting in endless lines just for a shot at stepping foot inside the studio... I guess it’s just one of those unfair advantages, maybe?

Shall we get back to wasting time and talking nonsense?

I’d honestly suggest you—and everyone else, really—just head out to San Diego... I mean, it’s seriously on your level.

I’ve just got to get one thing off my chest regarding doctors and all this constant whining about how little they make. Look, I’m assuming medical school is brutal—exhausting, soul-crushing, and everything people say it is. Honestly, I don't have a degree myself, so I can't sit here and judge which major is harder than another, but everyone talks about medicine being on a whole different level.

What I’m trying to say is that I am absolutely fed up with the endless complaining and the strikes over paychecks because, let’s be real, you future and current doctors are actually making a killing!

In my experience, I haven't gone to a single appointment where the doctor didn't conveniently schedule me during an on-call shift, only to decide they had the right to charge me for an ultrasound plus another 200-$100 bucks. Now, imagine if he does that for ten patients in a row; that shift is more than "paid for," not to mention those on-call hours are billed at a much higher rate. He’s easily cleared 4 $0.00 in a single night. And yet, there’s still more whining!

So, there’s my take on "professionalism," passion, and ethics.

To keep things from being totally bleak, I’ve actually encountered exactly one doctor so far who clearly loves what they do, and it shows in their work—kudos to them!
The rest? They're nothing more than a necessary evil. And by "the rest," I mean the ones I've actually dealt with personally; I won't generalize everyone because I genuinely want to believe there are still wonderful, dedicated, and kind-hearted doctors out there.

onix said:What’s a person actually worth to you? What kind of criteria are you using?

It’s honestly unbelievable. Don't you get what I'm saying? I was pointing out that, if you read between the lines, you all seem to be implying that someone's value can be measured by their job title.
I mean, you're basically suggesting doctors aren't worth nearly as much as their salaries...

I... I am genuinely curious. What possessed you to revive this thread? Nobody even gave it a second look until you stirred the pot. It almost slipped into total obscurity on page two. Or do you actually think nobody else realized this was just one big provocation?

A question for the moderators—why aren't threads like this just deleted? Does anyone here actually see any connection to health issues?

Ugh, fine. Since I'm feeling particularly generous and noble today, I'll actually answer your ridiculous questions.
The thread is barely three days old!
I stumbled upon an incredibly rude, provocative post and I responded because I have every right to, just like everyone else who posts those frustrated rants has the right to write them. And well, you saw for yourself that I wasn't exactly picking a fight with myself; I was dealing with a whole crowd of people who clearly take issue with the status of doctors, even though they act all "satisfied" with how things are. 🙄:mos si mislit:
And now you're going to try and dictate who has to stop responding first?

Why are you even replying to me if it isn't for the exact same reason—because you don't agree with me?

And you didn't even ask why that idiot decided to post such a topic in the Health section in the first place?

Instead of attacking the person who started the thread and provoked responses like mine.

Whatever, I guess there isn't much left to say.

neonranger9 said:I’ll just say one thing regarding doctor salaries and all this whining about how little they make. I assume medical school is tough, exhausting, and everything people say it is—and sure, no other major is easy, but medicine is medicine, at least that's the consensus. However, since I don't have a college degree myself, I can't really judge which major is harder than another.

What I meant was, I am totally fed up with the constant complaining and strikes from doctors over their paychecks because, honestly, my dear future and graduated physicians, you guys make a great living!

Graduated physicians?🤣 Actually, it looks like you're getting defensive (and rightfully so), but we weren't talking about doctor salaries here—we were discussing the "overly privileged status of doctors in society." 😬

I haven't yet had an appointment where the doctor didn't schedule me during an on-call shift, where he felt entitled to charge me for an ultrasound and maybe $200-$100 plus, and if he does that for even ten patients, his shift is definitely "paid for," not to mention he gets paid a higher rate for being on call. So, he made at least $4 $0.00 in one night. And still, there's more complaining!

I can't guarantee anything, much like it seems you can't either, but I haven't heard anywhere that you earn $$1333 during a night shift; I mean, maybe $1,000 max.

As for whether a salary is too high or too low, if you aren't college-educated, you probably started earning your own bread by age 20... whereas the average doctor is scraping by until at least 25 or older. So, just do the math on those 5+ years where he earned zero while you were working, and then tell me that shouldn't factor into the salary.

It isn't a coincidence that lazy kids don't study while the hard workers do... though I suppose diligence isn't necessarily a virtue that translates directly into cash.

What actually carries monetary value? I think everyone here has brought way too many personal biases into this discussion.

See ya.

Lawrence Robinson11 said:whatever, there's not much else to say really.

glad you finally caught on
😲

took you long enough, I guess
☕