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Are doctors more prone to "negative careerism"?

Started by brightmarlin44 · · 👁 6 views · 102 replies

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Participants brightmarlin44Lawrence Robinson11Michael Cox40Ethan Taylor12Hannah Davis18Casey Palmer5Jose Miller3Carol Jackson45goldengull3Scott Allen10jadesailor14granitebadger25Susan Martin24Justin FoxKyle Nelson2northerncobra27Megan ReedDennis Torresneonranger9Kate Garcia2Thomas Peterson46Robin Diaz4Jose Alvarez3Alexander Wright …
Susan Martin24 Susan Martin24 Active Member
79 messages
joined Apr 2006
#81 ·
I started my undergrad journey back in the '82/'83 school year and finally walked across that stage with my degree on October 15, 1987. I didn't even bother with an extra "senior year"—honestly, I wasn't even technically a super senior because I knocked out my very last exam in June during my final regular term. My GPA was sitting pretty at a 4.7.
Right after that, in the '87/'88 term, I jumped straight into my Master's program... then I landed a job... and honestly, history just kind of took a backseat.
To be fair, it wasn't a massive struggle for me—not just because I’ve got a good head on my shoulders 😍, but mostly because I was actually really disciplined about how I managed my study schedule. I never missed a beat with labs or lectures, and I made it a point to clear my entire exam load by the start of every summer. I think the latest I ever pushed an exam was during my fourth year (my memory isn't what it used to be, 😬), when I had to push pharmacology back to July because I ended up coming down with the measles. 😂
Every summer was a total whirlwind of activity, and even during the semester, I always made sure to get out and enjoy life.

Look, I know I can be a bit of a genius sometimes 🙂, but I definitely wasn't a one-of-a-kind case. There was this whole group of us in our cohort who tackled our studies with that exact same intensity. Most of those folks are professors or lecturers now; almost all of us went on to become specialists or at least earned our Master's degrees.
Even nowadays, I occasionally get this itch to go back to school and pick up another degree—maybe Law or something similar...
Jose Alvarez3 Jose Alvarez3 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jan 2006
#82 ·
left here said:haha, and who exactly deserves that same status? A B.S. in engineering? Well, I don't know... once he finishes his PhD, maybe then he can cut in front of me in line at Chase Bank.

Look, here’s the thing—I’m currently working toward my degree in chemical engineering, and my partner is actually a medical doctor in his fourth year of residency. Honestly, if anyone truly understands the sheer grind required to finish medical school, it’s the two of us... we really feel that struggle. But let's be clear: once you wrap up med school, you're essentially on the same level as someone with an engineering degree, regardless of whether your program drags on for six years or not. Once those of us in engineering go on to get our PhDs, we earn the title of Doctor of Philosophy, whereas you all just hold the professional MD title... there's really no comparison there, unless you decide to pursue a research-based doctorate after finishing your medical training. It's a different beast entirely. So, having an MD is more like how pharmacists hold a Master’s degree—it's a professional designation, but it isn't quite the same level of academic prestige, if you catch my drift... Besides, it's not just the doctors who have to deal with brutal exams and textbooks that are easily a thousand pages thick...
Kate Garcia2 Kate Garcia2 Active Member
51 messages
joined Feb 2011
#83 ·
DarthFlake said:I am hardly helpless, you know... naturally, I'll ask my sister for her take, let her play doctor, and let the other one vent at her if she wants.

But since we're here, allow me to share a little triumph... while she's certainly produced bigger disasters in the past, this one is particularly indecipherable (for anyone lacking specific context).http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=recept26nu.gif


Dabroston (t)bl
D(a) scat (ori)g N I (uno)

One box of Dabroston tablets 😉
Kate Garcia2 Kate Garcia2 Active Member
51 messages
joined Feb 2011
#84 ·
Susan Martin24 said:Piece of cake! 🤣

Writes:

Dabroston, honestly
D.scat.orig. N I (uno) 😍

Well, this guy belongs in the category of medieval scribes—those obsessive calligraphers. According to one of our radiologists, he refuses to type his findings on a computer; instead, he insists on doing everything "by hand" whenever he finally decides to read an image. But the truth? He’s a mentally unstable individual (officially verified), and apparently, nobody has the guts to tell him he's a public hazard. So, my colleagues and I are stuck either interpreting his images ourselves or begging other radiologists for help... it's exhausting. 🙄

You beat me to it. 😁

I once had a patient like that in ophthalmology. I'm actually inventing my own shorthand now because no one in the department can decipher what the man is trying to say.
And when we tried to return a corrected report to him once, the man nearly lost his mind. 😬
brightmarlin44 brightmarlin44 Active MemberOP
52 messages
joined Dec 2005
#85 ·
1). Look, med school isn't actually that brutal if you genuinely love the grind. But how do you figure out if you’re actually into it or just romanticizing the idea? Here's my two cents: if you can swing it, try reaching out to a professor at a local university—maybe somewhere like Johns Hopkins or Stanford—and see if they'll let you shadow some clinical rotations or lab work. You need to see what the reality looks like behind the scenes, because let me tell you, it's definitely not like watching a rerun of "ER" on Tuesday nights.🙂
2). If you're looking at something like specialized surgery or maybe even orthopedics, it's tough as hell right out of the gate, but honestly? It's a solid path. Yeah, it's grueling, but the payoff is huge—both financially and personally. Once you realize you actually have the power to fix someone up, that sense of pride is hard to beat. So, if you're leaning that way, just go for it.👍

And for northerncobra27—listen, I wasn't trying to take a shot at you, so let's not get petty. If this whole topic isn't your vibe, then don't feel obligated to stick around 😬 in the conversation.
brightmarlin44 brightmarlin44 Active MemberOP
52 messages
joined Dec 2005
#86 ·
I’ve met plenty of doctors who can draft a brilliant research paper but somehow decide their prescriptions absolutely *must* be illegible. Honestly? I think everything should be computer-generated Rp. It just makes sense. I’m curious, though—if those doctors who write like they’re using ancient runes were tasked with compounding formulas, how would they even manage? :-) I actually love seeing those prescriptions get kicked back from the pharmacy, but my heart goes out to the patients stuck in the middle!
Anyway, my little poll is finally showing some results. Thanks to everyone who weighed in! :-)
A quick note for Kate Garcia2: seeing you use "IM" for infectious mononucleosis felt a bit off, but hey, I guess that’s your way of showing off your expertise, especially in these forums where people are constantly hunting for advice. Using the jargon definitely makes you sound more authoritative. Out of curiosity, what’s the ICD-10 code for that one?
It might also make things seem a bit more "official" and easier to follow for the folks who didn't spend years in med school:-))
northerncobra27 northerncobra27 Active Member
61 messages
joined May 2013
#87 ·
brightmarlin44 said:...
Regarding northerncobra2—look, I wasn't trying to insult you, so please don't take aim at me either. If this particular topic isn't your cup of tea, there’s really no need to jump into 😬 it

I had this idea in my head that using quotation marks would act as some kind of shield to protect me from being seen as insulting, but clearly, that isn't how it works in practice. At the end of the day, I try my best not to label people as fools just because of a single comment they made. And calling someone a provocateur—well, I don't think that qualifies as an insult, does it? Or perhaps I misunderstood what your actual intentions were here?

Since this is an online forum, I'm going to hold onto my right to decide for myself which discussions I want to join, even if the subject matter isn't exactly my favorite.
Kyle Nelson2 Kyle Nelson2 Regular
475 messages
joined Jun 2008
#88 ·
left here said:First off, the government didn't "invest" in my education—I did. If you look at it that way, nobody really deserves credit for their own hard work, right? Plus, my parents paid their taxes, which funds the whole budget...
And look, I’m not trying to act superior to anyone, but since this entire thread is just one big provocation filled with nothing but prejudice and generalizations, I guess I'll respond in kind. Whoever wants to sink lower, be my guest. I don't mind...

Honestly, only someone blinded by their own biases could take my comment "you'll depend on me sooner or later" literally. They completely missed the point that I was just repeating exactly what he said in the first place...

The government invests in you simply because you aren't paying for your own tuition. In the US, everyone pays taxes, so they don't exactly expect college to be free.
As for your comments, maybe they're provocations, maybe they aren't... but they were definitely said, and that's how I'm taking them...
Megan Reed Megan Reed Active Member
170 messages
joined Sep 2005
#89 ·
The government covers tuition for anyone studying under the public health mandate, otherwise you're on your own.
Alexander Wright Alexander Wright Newcomer
4 messages
joined Apr 2009
#90 ·
left here said:right, and who exactly deserves that same title? an engineer?

Just stop—you're embarrassing all of us
quietharbor2 quietharbor2 Newcomer
6 messages
joined Aug 2003
#91 ·
left here said:I'm a med student, and I can say with absolute certainty that at least 95% of my peers aren't pursuing medicine for the social status—which, by the way, isn't even that great!

...
My mom was at the 911 ER today for a non-emergency, and the doctors were wonderful!

...

I struggle because I actually love medicine and helping people—and in return, I’ll get an unlimited supply of people exactly like you.😕


Dear left here,

I've read all your responses in this thread. It's clear you've managed to get quite worked up. I also see your colleagues have given you a few reality checks.

Most young physicians enter medicine full of enthusiasm. There is plenty of research regarding motivations for entering the field. Usually, it's driven by ambitious young people who witnessed a health crisis within their own families and realized early on how vital healthcare is. A significant number of people choose medicine simply because they come from medical families—their motivation is just to follow in the footsteps of a parent or relative.

Inevitably, after those pure motivations, one encounters the uglier side. When you are a young resident trying to make clinical decisions while limited by diagnoses, bed counts, and available medication, you'll find patients' relatives offering envelopes or bags filled with things that represent the "price" of health for their loved ones.

That is when a person asks themselves for the first time if it is right to accept this "reward" in exchange for a decision—regardless of whether it's a fancy coffee, some prosciutto, or a blue envelope. Most say, "No, thank you."

Then others ask, "Is it not enough?" Or they pack up their bribe and leave with heads bowed, still wrestling with that same question internally.

I won't dwell too deeply on hypothetical scenarios.
This topic reminds me of the difficult growing pains doctors face only after finishing school. No matter what you say or how you carry yourself, the fact remains: being a doctor is a prominent title, and you will spend your entire life under a microscope. You will be praised more than you deserve, and you will be criticized more than you've ever done anything wrong; people will judge you from a distance, whether you know them or not. They will come from miles away to try and convince you that you are insignificant—or they will flatter you from up close. You simply have to stay strong and refuse to be wounded by their insults or swayed by their hollow compliments. You don't work for the praise; you work for your own internal satisfaction. When you go home knowing that a patient stopped drinking because of a conversation you had with them a month ago, or when a child returns for a checkup after you diagnosed their strabismus in time—and now they wear glasses with a patch, eventually leading to healthy, developed eyes... that is your reward. You won't be able to share that feeling with anyone. Rarely will anyone step up to ask how *you* are doing or if *you* need help.

No one is going to ask how many hours of free time you sacrificed for continuing education, how many times you packed a suitcase full of medicine for the whole community during vacation, or why you couldn't make it to a neighbor's party. But they will definitely gossip in the neighborhood if you haven't started seeing patients by nine, or if you stayed over a cup of coffee a little too long one day.

Simply do not expect your patients to understand you. The dynamic is reversed: As long as you are wearing the white coat, they are addressing "the doctor." Once the coat comes off, you can be vulnerable with a chosen few. There is no reciprocity.

I hope you grow up without becoming hardened. 🙂
quietharbor2 quietharbor2 Newcomer
6 messages
joined Aug 2003
#92 ·
If I may offer a single piece of advice:

Don't walk around thinking you're somehow superior to everyone else—not just from a moral standpoint, but because it’ll ultimately backfire... you'll stop doing the actual work required to improve.
shadowfalcon33 shadowfalcon33 Active Member
64 messages
joined Jan 2008
#93 ·
vlale said:People wait years for an appointment, mostly because the doctor is busy sipping coffee until 9 AM while patients have been sitting in the waiting room since 7 AM... and so on.

Correction to an inaccurate statement—the delays are actually due to systemic organizational failures within the entire healthcare system.
shadowfalcon33 shadowfalcon33 Active Member
64 messages
joined Jan 2008
#94 ·
Scott Allen10 said:and compared to all other government agencies, they have the highest pay, both directly and indirectly.

Can we back this up with some actual facts?
shadowfalcon33 shadowfalcon33 Active Member
64 messages
joined Jan 2008
#95 ·
emo§ion said:1) Is it actually possible to finish med school on schedule? (I've heard some pretty terrifying stories about it taking 10 years to graduate)😲?

😁 It is possible.
Scott Allen10 Scott Allen10 Regular
315 messages
joined Jun 2005
#96 ·
shadowfalcon33 said:Can we actually back this up with some hard facts?

Honestly, I can give you the lowdown right now if you want to take my word for it... I’m talking about the actual take-home pay for specialist doctors on my unit (it’s not a clinical department, though I think those guys pull in even more, but I can't be 100% sure). My boss pulls in about $15,000 to $18,000 after taxes when he covers 4 to 6 shifts. That number includes his advanced degrees and his specific position.
Specialists pulling 4 to 6 shifts usually see about $11,000 to $13,000 net. And that’s not even counting the extra seniority pay that people who have been in the game longer get to pocket.
On top of that—just like everyone else working in the hospital—they get holiday bonuses, longevity awards, and travel reimbursements.

That’s the direct stuff—what you get regardless of whether you’re a total genius or just someone doing the job. I honestly don't know any other government job that hits those kinds of averages.

Then there’s the indirect side of things, which is a much broader concept and honestly kind of hard to summarize quickly.

I won't even count the social status that inevitably comes with the job, because hey, I'm not judging that. Nor will I mention the little tokens of appreciation patients hand out 90% of the time after leaving the hospital—you know, the chocolate boxes, flowers, booze, or even just a nice meal delivered to your door.

But what I *will* count, just throwing it all out there, is this...
Every single professional development opportunity—symposiums, conferences, medical meetups... the travel costs, registration fees, and hotels aren't coming out of their own pockets. It’s covered by hospital funds (to a lesser extent) and a whole lot of corporate sponsors (much more so).
And let's be real, sponsorships are often used for some pretty shady, semi-private perks—like upgrading a kitchen, getting an AC unit installed at home, free car services, trips to Rome, or various other household help and gadgets.
In about 95% of cases, these perks are reserved specifically for doctors, making it pretty hard for anyone else in the healthcare field to step in.

The indirect stuff that's basically off-limits to us "regular mortals" is this whole "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" system.
It’s like, "Hey Doc, handle my CT scan, my anesthesia for this procedure, or grab my niece an orthotic," and in exchange, you might get a free flat-screen TV, a high-end HiFi system, a super cheap roof repair, a massive stash of groceries every Easter, or a thick envelope of cash... not to mention the guy who gets a regular delivery of homemade pickles and peppers.

Also, you can't ignore those semi-legal side gigs where doctors head over to private clinics for an hour or two to see patients for straight cash—we're talking four-digit amounts per session.

Most other government jobs couldn't dream of touching those kinds of perks.

If I had to add one thing, it's that the pay for resident specialists is genuinely low, and I’d happily toss another thousand dollars on top of it.

I don't have time to dive into the PZZ data right now, but it wouldn't be hard to crunch the numbers on revenue versus expenses plus everything I mentioned above to prove that being a doctor is probably the best-paid government service in America. I'm not complaining about the money itself, but I really can't stand the medical elitism and the constant whining about how they "can barely afford to eat" when they're out here pulling in six shifts instead of four.
shadowfalcon33 shadowfalcon33 Active Member
64 messages
joined Jan 2008
#97 ·
Scott Allen10 said:Believe me, I'm telling you this from firsthand experience.

Sponsorships are often used as a cover for semi-private kickbacks that are honestly pretty disgusting—we're talking stuff like remodeling a kitchen, getting an AC unit installed in an apartment, free car services, trips to Rome, or all sorts of little and large household perks... you name it.
.

Wait, are you being serious? 😲 Have you actually seen a case where they've covered a whole kitchen or installed air conditioning?
Susan Martin24 Susan Martin24 Active Member
79 messages
joined Apr 2006
#98 ·
So, full disclosure here—the guy who installed my AC unit is actually the husband of one of my patients. We’ve known them as a couple since long before they ever stepped foot in my clinic.
I paid him the standard rate, just like I would any other customer: $500.
I will admit, though, he swung by the very next day after I bought the unit, just like we’d planned. I actually made sure to ask him which day he had open before I even pulled the trigger on the purchase. 😬
Does this mean I'm some kind of dirty, corrupt, evil vampire doctor? 😍
Should I go out and punish myself for this, or is just sprinkling ash over my head enough? Because honestly, I feel pretty terrible about what I've done 😈
Casey Cook10 Casey Cook10 Active Member
77 messages
joined May 2024
#99 ·
Susan Martin24 said:So, Lastane, does that basically mean I'm just some dirty, corrupt, evil vampire doctor out for blood? 😍
Should I just go get bitten by a mosquito or is sprinkling some ash on myself enough... because, honestly, what I did was pretty terrible. 😈


I guess it doesn't really mean that. Because if you actually were, you wouldn't even be getting paid in dollars. I mean, what happens when people don't know the standard rate and they end up overcharging you anyway? 😁

Scott Allen10 said:Any kind of continuing education—symposiums, national conferences, workshops... travel costs, registration fees, hotel stays—none of that should come out of your own pocket. It’s either covered partially by hospital funds or, more likely, heavily subsidized by various sponsors.

Regarding that, I think anyone would be lucky if their hospital covered all those training sessions, or better yet, if they could pay for them themselves. It's like you're totally forgetting about recertification, which requires similar investments just to chase those famous "credits." And if you're in a specialty where there isn't much left to discover at national conventions (or if they aren't even happening lately), how are you supposed to stay up to date? Sure, in this age of the internet and endless medical journals, a conference isn't some magical way to gain knowledge (which the boss then reports to the board), but it at least lets you refresh things or make some new connections. Plus, it gives you a chance to get away for a week and just relax. There's a decent amount of money involved, though obviously still less than the big capital investments or equipment upgrades, which a department head like you or me couldn't touch even if we wanted to (and I don't really care about that part anyway). And nobody calls you out for that stuff either; they'll just whisper that Company X took Doctor YZ on a trip to Malibu—as if!
Scott Allen10 Scott Allen10 Regular
315 messages
joined Jun 2005
#100 ·
Pallas said:Wait, are you actually being serious right now? 😲 Have you ever seen a situation where they just went ahead and fully outfitted a kitchen or installed an AC unit?

Yep.

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