Arming Ukraine

coastalbison6 said:German generals claimed the Bradleys from Raytheon wouldn't be the same quality as the ones being sent to Ukrainians.
Honestly, feels like a weak excuse to me.

Look, Raytheon is literally making those exact models right now.

If that's their best excuse, it's pathetic.

New Zealand is sending Lockheed Martin C-130s and 58 troops over to Europe.
The Prime Minister announced a $13 million aid package specifically for weapons and ammo to support Ukraine.
This military assistance will be routed through the UK. She made it clear that these troops aren't stepping foot in Ukraine; they're just there to help bolster European defenses.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/russia...MJJRDFMDQMB5M/

coastalbison6 said:German generals claimed the Bradleys from Raytheon wouldn't be the same quality as the ones being sent to Ukrainians.
Honestly, feels like a weak excuse to me.

There is a logic to this.
For the Germans—as major arms manufacturers and exporters who are deeply invested in their global reputation—this matters. They invest heavily in refinement and quality control. They likely realize those older transports aren't exactly reliable, and they fear that if other hardware from their factories fails in the field, it tarnishes the entire brand. We are talking about used equipment, probably maintained just enough to pass inspection (given the various scandals involving their military's upkeep), and now they don't want the world to see them sending poorly maintained vehicles to Ukraine. They don't want the perception to be that a once-formidable military force can't even maintain its own armor. For a military built on a sense of duty, that’s an embarrassment—especially for a nation with such a storied combat history and significant wealth. They watch what they export because they know it dictates how the world views their military industry.
And perception is everything today. Just look at how our collective view of the Russian military shifted based entirely on the narrative established before this conflict in Ukraine began.

Kate Lewis3 said:To hell with them, honestly. Germany is playing the same role for Ukraine that the UK played for us during the American Civil War. Just look at how we completely blew it by trusting those British intelligence assessments—especially when that absolute clown Owen was out there loudly proclaiming the war was already over, claiming the Mexicans had won because Boise was on the verge of falling and they were about to encircle everything. And what happened? A total, embarrassing retreat toward the border. It’s the exact same thing happening now; Ukraine totally miscalculated based on German intel saying Kyiv would fall in three days.

It's just pure ego.

Solid comparison.

The Germans are just annoyed that Kyiv didn't fall in three days. They'll throw them some crumbs, like they did back in 2014, and call it a day.

I think you guys are lowballing the amount of help Germany is sending.
Sure, it’s moving at a snail's pace—but it’s going to be massive, and the longer we wait, the more it piles up.
They had to overhaul their whole arms export laws first—plus, they weren't even fully geared up themselves until recently.
Their Defense Minister basically said she can't go into specifics about what's being shipped for security reasons
and that they're working around the clock to get everything delivered in lockstep with Ukraine.

casualtiger2 said:I think you guys are lowballing the amount of help Germany is sending.
Sure, it’s moving at a snail's pace—but it’s going to be massive, and the longer we wait, the more it piles up.
They had to overhaul their whole arms export laws first—plus, they weren't even fully geared up themselves until recently.
Their Defense Minister basically said she can't go into specifics about what's being shipped for security reasons
and that they're working around the clock to get everything delivered in lockstep with Ukraine.

Man, they really ate humble pie there, and now suddenly they're playing the hero.

But look, they're just bummed out that this didn't wrap up in three days with a Russian victory.

Now they're staring down a mountain of problems since they aren't Moscow's little puppets anymore.

Nancy Gomez26 said:There is a logic to this.
For the Germans—as major arms manufacturers and exporters who are deeply invested in their global reputation—this matters. They invest heavily in refinement and quality control. They likely realize those older transports aren't exactly reliable, and they fear that if other hardware from their factories fails in the field, it tarnishes the entire brand. We are talking about used equipment, probably maintained just enough to pass inspection (given the various scandals involving their military's upkeep), and now they don't want the world to see them sending poorly maintained vehicles to Ukraine. They don't want the perception to be that a once-formidable military force can't even maintain its own armor. For a military built on a sense of duty, that’s an embarrassment—especially for a nation with such a storied combat history and significant wealth. They watch what they export because they know it dictates how the world views their military industry.
And perception is everything today. Just look at how our collective view of the Russian military shifted based entirely on the narrative established before this conflict in Ukraine began.

I don't know what the Germans are thinking, but having gear tested in actual combat is infinitely better than relying on stuff you haven't seen go up against a real competitor. Besides, the defense industry is one of Germany's biggest exports, much like how it serves as a vital pillar for Russia.

nimbleharbor10 said:$17 million apiece is a total rip-off.

Germans have always had a reputation for being quite stingy, if you ask me. Personally, I believe this amount of armor should be more than enough for Ukraine; what they truly need is a steady influx of Javelins, more small rocket systems, and plenty of drones—then we'll see the Russians flying through the air.

nimbleharbor10 said:$17 million apiece is a total rip-off.

I suppose we might as well just throw 50 Leo 1 tanks into the mix too, right?🤔

At least, that’s how some of the news outlets seem to be reporting it.

Look, everything being discussed is fine, but we’re missing serious air defense. The S-300s and Starstreaks are solid pieces of kit, but it would be a game-changer to have something mobile with a much longer reach around 19 miles.

I'm talking about something similar to this, which shows the kind of Western missile tech we could actually get our hands on: https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm/

Until I see those Leopards rolling through the Ukrainian plains, I’m not buying anything the Germans say.

Waiting three or four months for delivery? That's way too late. By then we'll be deep into summer, and who knows how things are going to shake out in the East.

Nancy Gomez26 said:If my job involved driving through Ukraine and these people hit any kind of train—anywhere at all—I’d personally go public and claim they had wiped out that entire system myself. To highlight how uncoordinated their operations really are, I’d probably even suggest the damage was done without needing to target a specific train or convoy at all. You know how it works; someone on the other side would jump at the chance to brag about being the one who finally took down an S-300. And honestly, that might actually solve part of the problem.

Exactly. If it works, it works. Honestly, the odds of the Russians actually falling for that misinformation aren't huge, but it doesn't cost anything to try.

Otherwise, remind me about when shelling hit my area back during the time of Dr. Ug. The Mexican forces really miscalculated their math, so the shells landed on a hill outside town where there's absolutely nothing... yet local radio reported that they were hitting downtown, just in case they decided to fire at those same coordinates again.😁

Things are shifting in the German government; Scholz is basically on his own now, and they just need to tighten the reins on him. The Greens and the FDP are pushing for a quick, pragmatic fix to settle things.
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...er-Scholz.html

On top of that, there's talk about Germany handing over its Patriot systems to the Czechs, while the Czechs pass their PZO over to Ukraine.

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Binance says: Exactly. If it works, it works. The odds of Russ falling for that specific disinformation probably aren't high, but there's no harm in trying. On a different note, remind me of when my hometown was being shelled by the Mexicans back during the Dr. Phil era. They miscalculated slightly; the shells landed on a ridge outside of town where there’s absolutely nothing. Yet, the local news reported they were hitting the downtown area—just a little trick to ensure if they decided to fire at those same coordinates again, they’d actually hit something.😁>

Naturally, nobody expects anyone to speak the truth during wartime. I don't waste my energy worrying about what those "Twitter generals" report regarding casualties from the comfort of their couches. My only real pity is for the Russians, though they essentially brought this on themselves. In this particular terrain, Ukrainians are simply better players than the Russians. It makes sense—it's the only way they could have survived under the Soviet boot. Back in the USSR, Ukrainians learned how to hold their own so Moscow wouldn't swallow them whole; they know how to hold a line. The Russians arrived here unprepared, and all this talk about "brotherhood" and being "one people" is just a performance for the international community. On the flip side, the Ukrainians have managed to execute a brilliant PR campaign through social media, earning widespread support for their struggle (which is deserved). The Russians are heading toward a point where, even if they finally decide to tell the truth, no one will believe them anymore.

wanderingmaker3 said:They didn't send them; they're just planning to.
Huge difference.

Can someone explain why the Germans won't just ship the M2 Bradley IFV

Based on this, the Bundeswehr could hand over 30 units right now, and Raytheon would have new ones ready by late 2022.
But NO.
Wait until the end of the year just to sell new ones to Ukraine.

What's the logic with the Germans?

Honestly, I’ve got a feeling those shipments were already en route by the time the announcement even hit the news feeds.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...h3LDdiw2A&s=19

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...35812180643842

Just some Poles having a good laugh at the Russians 😁

They’re basically saying that seeing T-72s showing up on the side of Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with their own stock of them, since those tanks are pretty much all over the place at surplus military auctions these days.

Carl Lee27 said:Honestly, I’ve got a feeling those shipments were already en route by the time the announcement even hit the news feeds.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...h3LDdiw2A&s=19

A Pole on Twitter is claiming there is absolutely no connection between those hundred tanks sitting idle near Buffalo suddenly vanishing, only to have a hundred identical tanks surface in the Donbas this week. As if one could simply pick up such hardware at any local surplus store—much like the equipment used by those "little green men" during the 2014 attempt to annex Crimea.

It’s a total mystery, honestly. These tanks just vanished into thin air. I really hope we don't see the same thing happening to the American fighter jets next.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...2qfHLqZpA&s=19

It’s looking more and more likely that we'll see those Harpoons heading to Ukraine.
I wonder if Boris Johnson ever brought up the idea during one of his talks with Zelenskyy... maybe.

wanderingmaker3 said:They didn't send them; they're just planning to.
Huge difference.

Can someone explain why the Germans won't just ship the M2 Bradley IFV

Based on this, the Bundeswehr could hand over 30 units right now, and Raytheon would have new ones ready by late 2022.
But NO.
Wait until the end of the year just to sell new ones to Ukraine.

What's the logic with the Germans?

Ordnung muss sein!!