Religion classes in school - Megathread

silentraven6 said:Torture isn't just reserved for atheists; it’s happening to other believers too.

There's also this one really interesting thing that happened—when the idea of starting a petition to replace religious education with something else came up, I actually got an email from this self-righteous "believer" who was basically the modern-day version of a Pharisee.

And thirdly, yesterday I saw firsthand exactly what this religious curriculum is teaching kids. To quote them: "God, please... don't let him show up at the park, please let him get sick, he's disgusting." And I'm not even talking about some little bully here; it's just pure, unadulterated spite.

Lastly—the way these religious instructors are hired and employed completely clashes with basic civil rights and the fundamental norms of a secular society.

Good grief, I never learned stuff like that in my religion classes, and I highly doubt they've changed enough to be teaching kids to pray for someone else's misery...

Seriously though.

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Andrew Doyle said:Absolutely not.
As long as that agreement with Vatican City signed by the US government back in the mid-90s remains in effect—religion stays in the schools. So much for our supposedly secular nation.

And regarding this idea of the "majority"... let me tell you about my local municipal daycare. We had 27 parents on one side pushing for Catholic grace before meals, and I was the only single person standing my ground saying I didn't want that. They didn't manage to force it through (not after I brought in journalists and lawyers to back me up). And yeah, they gave me the death stare for a while because, apparently, I was personally responsible for their little ones not praying before lunch. You want prayer before a meal? Go to a private religious preschool or pray at home. It has no business being in the only public, state-run daycare in town, especially when I, as a parent who doesn't want this, have zero alternatives. I pay my taxes for that daycare just like everyone else. A public daycare in a secular country!

It's indoctrination from infancy—exactly the kind of thing that pedagogy, common sense, and actual tolerance should be fighting against.

Regarding religious classes in school, luckily here they are scheduled either first thing in the morning or at the very end of the day. My kid actually looks forward to arriving a bit later or getting to head home early because of it.

And as long as most Americans still identify as Catholic, nothing is ever going to change...
Amen

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So I guess people of other faiths in this country just have to deal with it, because as long as their votes stay in the minority, nothing changes...
Amen

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Honestly, you could have 75% of Americans declare themselves Pastafarians tomorrow and it wouldn't change a thing—the international treaty would still be perfectly valid. At the end of the day, those big interstate agreements don't care about how the majority chooses to identify 😉
It’s just how the legal gears turn. r'Amen 😬

shadowcrane91 said:And as long as most Americans still identify as Catholic, nothing is ever going to change...
Amen

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So I guess people of other faiths in this country just have to deal with it, because as long as their votes stay in the minority, nothing changes...
Amen

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No, that Treaty has absolutely zero connection to you as part of the majority.

Sarah Hall53 said:Honestly, you could have 75% of Americans declare themselves Pastafarians tomorrow and it wouldn't change a thing—the international treaty would still be perfectly valid. At the end of the day, those big interstate agreements don't care about how the majority chooses to identify 😉
It’s just how the legal gears turn. r'Amen 😬

Just wait until we all start identifying as Jedi.
😁

shadowcrane91 said:And as long as most Americans still identify as Catholic, nothing is ever going to change...
Amen

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So I guess people of other faiths in this country just have to deal with it, because as long as their votes stay in the minority, nothing changes...
Amen

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but let's be real, maybe like 10% of them actually live like Catholics

Most Americans live in apartments; perhaps it’s time we held a referendum to mandate a tax based on square footage per occupant. Since homeowners in the suburbs and rural areas are in the minority, shouldn't they be the ones to adapt?

wanderingbadger44 said:So, you're saying you don't know? It feels a bit strange to me, doesn't it? Just take a moment to think about it—you could even look it up online.

If you dig around, you'll find that under the agreements with the Vatican, religious education in schools is regulated as an elective subject with a very specific legal standing. This unique status is strictly defined so that religious studies are treated as a core subject. Because of this, it has to be integrated directly into the standard daily schedule; it can't be pushed to before or after school hours the way other electives, foreign languages, or computer science classes might be.

Now, just try to consider what kind of intention lies behind setting it up that way.

Religious education is organized so that it takes place during the 8th or 9th period, or perhaps the 1st period in elementary schools. This ensures that nobody is left wandering through the hallways while religious instruction is being held.
In high schools, religious studies run parallel to ethics classes, so there aren't any issues there at all.

I honestly cannot believe we are still having these kinds of debates.
Religious education is taught by either degreed theologians or degreed catechists. The former completed a five-year program, and the latter a four-year degree.
They have taken pedagogical courses, studied didactics, and mastered methodology, which unquestionably puts them on the same level as any other teacher.

Besides, just look at the USA and how much they demand theology teachers, so to speak. Nobody is out there demanding teachers for American literature or history.
😁

William Bennett53 said:If we are truly a Catholic nation that shouldn't feel any shame regarding its faith—as you suggest above—then wouldn't it follow that minorities should be the ones to adapt? This leads me to wonder: following the model of certain Islamic states in the Middle East, do you believe religion ought to become an integral part of our formal social and legal framework? In other words, are you suggesting we should abandon secularism altogether? If we did, would that effectively silence all opposition to placing crosses in public schools and government buildings? And really, looking at the big picture, do we actually gain anything positive from maintaining a secular society?

As for everything else, I firmly believe that almost anyone who truly cares about providing their children with a meaningful religious upbringing should favor church-based instruction over what is offered in public schools. Schools offer a certain level of convenience, certainly; it requires zero extra effort from a parent to manage their schedule when the curriculum is already built into the school day. But much like opting for fast food just because it’s easy, this approach lacks substance. For a practicing believer, what actual spiritual value can be gained from a standardized school religious program? It simply doesn't compare.

The reasons that immediately come to mind:
Is mandatory religious education in schools truly serving any purpose? When you frame faith as a requirement, you immediately trigger resistance in a child. It becomes a chore rather than a choice. In our experience, church-led religious studies were never an obligation; instead, they served as a wonderful, enriching extracurricular activity for those of us who attended. Why force the issue when engagement comes from genuine interest?
Does the inherent sanctity of a church building not play a profound role in how a student perceives the lessons taught by their catechist? It seems to me that the atmosphere itself lends weight to the word.
When religious studies is forced into the same rigid schedule as math or history, it loses its essence. It gets reduced to just another checkbox on a syllabus—something students feel they simply have to "get through." From a student's perspective, it becomes just as hollow and pointless as any other mandatory elective that lacks real-world relevance. Why should it be any different? If it’s treated like a chore rather than an exploration of faith, how can we expect them to care?
Assigning grades to work submitted by individuals outside the traditional school system often triggers significant backlash. I’ve personally witnessed several instances where students were essentially bullied into abandoning critical thinking by frustrated instructors. This usually happened when students started asking uncomfortable questions rooted in scientific facts they had picked up in other classes. In those cases, there was often an implicit threat: either stay quiet and remain passive, or risk having a poor grade in religion tank your chances of getting into a decent high school.

To wrap this up:
Is a church really a better environment than a school for learning religious doctrine? I would argue that it is. To those who remain skeptical, I might suggest trying both and seeing for yourselves.
Forcing children into religious education classes creates a sense of resentment, much like any other form of compulsion. To avoid this friction, the most logical step would be to remove religion from the core academic curriculum entirely—essentially taking it off the official grading roster. Instead, if these classes are to exist at all, they should be scheduled during the final hours of the school day. If it remains part of the school environment, let it function as an extracurricular activity, much like a model building club or a choir program.
- We ought to be giving people a real choice here; religious studies should be an option again, whether that's in public schools or through local churches.

I’m sure there are plenty of other points to raise, but I simply don't have the time right now... 👋

I agree that religious ed should be treated like any other elective since obviously not all kids are from the same faith, but I'm not saying pull it out of schools entirely...
Those are two totally different arguments....
And I also agree it shouldn't be graded....
The agreement with the Vatican won't be broken as long as the US declares itself a Catholic nation... and based on how Americans identify, we declare ourselves a Catholic nation....

And then these same Catholics turn around and complain about religious education...

Am I the only one seeing the massive hypocrisy here???

So the US claims to be a Catholic state, but then rebels against it because it doesn't like the guidelines set by the Catholic Church leadership?????

Larry Walker24 said:but let's be real, maybe like 10% of them actually live like Catholics

I know... and that’s exactly where the whole thing stops making sense.

Frank Flores63 said:Religious education is organized so that it takes place during the 8th or 9th period, or perhaps the 1st period in elementary schools. This ensures that nobody is left wandering through the hallways while religious instruction is being held.
In high schools, religious studies run parallel to ethics classes, so there aren't any issues there at all.

I honestly cannot believe we are still having these kinds of debates.
Religious education is taught by either degreed theologians or degreed catechists. The former completed a five-year program, and the latter a four-year degree.
They have taken pedagogical courses, studied didactics, and mastered methodology, which unquestionably puts them on the same level as any other teacher.

Besides, just look at the USA and how much they demand theology teachers, so to speak. Nobody is out there demanding teachers for American literature or history.
😁

In the schools where I actually teach, religious ed follows the exact same schedule as every other mandatory subject on the roster. It’s not some special outlier. Any kids who aren't enrolled in the religion classes just spend that period sitting in the school library like everyone else.

And as a Catholic, I definitely get that

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Andrew Doyle said:In the schools where I actually teach, religious ed follows the exact same schedule as every other mandatory subject on the roster. It’s not some special outlier. Any kids who aren't enrolled in the religion classes just spend that period sitting in the school library like everyone else.

So what's the damn problem???

shadowcrane91 said:I know... that's exactly where the whole lack of logic kicks in.

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But let's be real, they wouldn't have even bothered drafting an international treaty with the Vatican if the people hadn't identified as Catholic...
I mean, why would any country go through the trouble of making a deal with the Holy See if everyone had declared themselves Jedi?

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The school system carries an undeniable authority.
Through organized indoctrination, children are fed a steady diet of fairy tales and falsehoods.
It’s irrelevant whether the majority buys into these myths or not.
They are nothing more than fairy tales.

We are raising generations of narrow-minded religious zealots. You see sixteen-year-olds recoiling at homosexuality and lecturing others on the sanctity of marriage. For crying out loud—sixteen or seventeen-year-old kids are preaching about the sanctity of marriage!
Back in my day, kids that age were out making mistakes and hoping they didn't screw up too badly (usually they did), rather than acting as guardians of marital sanctity.

For twenty years now, we've been breeding generations of closed-minded fools.
There is more religious instruction in our schools than there is math or computer science.
But hey, since most people are Catholic, I guess it’s fine.

Maybe we can just pray our way back to an economic recovery.

shadowcrane91 said:But let's be real, they wouldn't have even bothered drafting an international treaty with the Vatican if the people hadn't identified as Catholic...
I mean, why would any country go through the trouble of making a deal with the Holy See if everyone had declared themselves Jedi?

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The idea that the people didn't identify as Catholic is simply false.
According to the census, 84% of the population was recorded that way.
Beyond the numbers, the entire census process was a total disaster. I personally know at least ten people who were listed as Catholic just because they weren't home when the enumerator showed up. They even listed me as Catholic. When I asked, "What the hell were you thinking?" the response was basically, "Well, you were baptized, so what else would you be?"

Matthew Young35 said:The idea that the people didn't identify as Catholic is simply false.
According to the census, 84% of the population was recorded that way.
Beyond the numbers, the entire census process was a total disaster. I personally know at least ten people who were listed as Catholic just because they weren't home when the enumerator showed up. They even listed me as Catholic. When I asked, "What the hell were you thinking?" the response was basically, "Well, you were baptized, so what else would you be?"

Then just opt out of Catholicism already!

What's the big deal?

Let's run a new census... if you care about changing these numbers so much—go ahead and demand one...
And guess what? Parents raising their kids in the Catholic faith are still going to write down that their kids are Catholic. That’s how they're being raised...
So why is everyone acting like this is weird?

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shadowcrane91, would you care to attempt a definition of what it actually means to be a Catholic?

Matthew Young35 said:The school system carries an undeniable authority.
Through organized indoctrination, children are fed a steady diet of fairy tales and falsehoods.
It’s irrelevant whether the majority buys into these myths or not.
They are nothing more than fairy tales.

We are raising generations of narrow-minded religious zealots. You see sixteen-year-olds recoiling at homosexuality and lecturing others on the sanctity of marriage. For crying out loud—sixteen or seventeen-year-old kids are preaching about the sanctity of marriage!
Back in my day, kids that age were out making mistakes and hoping they didn't screw up too badly (usually they did), rather than acting as guardians of marital sanctity.

For twenty years now, we've been breeding generations of closed-minded fools.
There is more religious instruction in our schools than there is math or computer science.
But hey, since most people are Catholic, I guess it’s fine.

Maybe we can just pray our way back to an economic recovery.

Catholicism doesn't support gay marriage...
And God created male and female.....

But it also teaches you not to hate anyone.....

And that the Catholic faith promotes the sanctity of marriage....

So what's the damn problem???

If you don't believe in it, you don't have to spit on it either.....

Every religion has its own guidelines and doctrines....

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Matthew Young35 said:The idea that the people didn't identify as Catholic is simply false.
According to the census, 84% of the population was recorded that way.
Beyond the numbers, the entire census process was a total disaster. I personally know at least ten people who were listed as Catholic just because they weren't home when the enumerator showed up. They even listed me as Catholic. When I asked, "What the hell were you thinking?" the response was basically, "Well, you were baptized, so what else would you be?"

I haven't heard of anyone from that 84% trying to get themselves removed from the census just because someone else checked the wrong box...

Was it you????

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Look, if they want Catholic religion classes—whether you call it indoctrination or just non-denominational stuff—fine. Let them have it. But we should also allow kids to hear the other side: the part where we point out it’s all just a bunch of ancient, baseless superstitions. If someone wants to dive into that, more power to them.

shadowcrane91 said:Catholicism doesn't support gay marriage...
And God created male and female.....

But it also teaches you not to hate anyone.....

And that the Catholic faith promotes the sanctity of marriage....

So what's the damn problem???

If you don't believe in it, you don't have to spit on it either.....

Every religion has its own guidelines and doctrines....

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I haven't heard of anyone from that 84% trying to get themselves removed from the census just because someone else checked the wrong box...

Was it you????

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It's just like how most people claim to be Americans but can't even grasp the basics of their own language; should we really start writing like that uneducated majority? Or shouldn't we...

Regarding my point, it's about the fact that they aren't being taught about faith, empathy, compassion, or not taking God's name in vain. And it's about not praying for bad things to happen.

Quincy said:I haven't heard of anyone actually getting removed from the census rolls just because someone else was mistakenly added...

Are you talking about yourself?

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Of course I'm not.
I really don't have the patience to deal with some bureaucratic census committee. Honestly, I’ve had enough. I already had to wait five hours just to submit a request for a damn driver's license last month.