Immigration General Discussion Volume IV (Read the first post and moderator warning on page 309)

Harold Evans4 said:Not exactly. He’s arguing that the police don't have the authority to use force against immigrants. Like everyone on this forum thinks they can just "force" them to stop—as if it's that easy. But how? With bullets?

The military doesn't even have a say in this. Even if they've been waving rifles around since day one.

gentlemoose57 said:Look, nobody is talking about basic barbed wire here; we are talking about razor wire. For crying out loud! A prison perimeter is usually miles long.

First off, if you watch the video, you can see the fence actually managed to halt half the group. Plus, this news broke right when they started putting the barrier up—just look at how that section of the border looks now, or compare it to how the southern border looks today.
Besides, nobody is claiming a wall is going to stop 100% of illegal crossings, but it’s certainly going to do a lot more than nothing at a border where currently nothing is being done at all.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:Check out what manufacturers show on their websites regarding razor-wire fencing. They take a roll of it, set up a wooden dummy in front of it, and then use a remote to slice through the wire. Just look at what’s left of that dummy once the razor blades have shredded it during the cutting and unwinding process. It's absolute carnage. No one is going to attempt to cross that, no matter how desperate they might be.
Are you all honestly picturing some old-school, basic barbed wire used by the military back in the day?

Some folks act like they're staring down a swarm of spiders just because they're looking at roof rack mounts. It doesn't mean they're actually dangerous if you actually know what you're doing. Sure, something is bound to snap under tension, and when you combine speed with that kind of sharpness, things can get messy fast. But—thankfully—if you approach it with a bit of an engineering mindset, you can totally master the wire and turn the whole thing into a joke. I can even watch videos of it on my phone. If I end up buying some wire, maybe I'll film my own little tutorial.

Harold Evans4 said:Not exactly. He’s arguing that the police don't have the authority to use force against immigrants. Like everyone on this forum thinks they can just "force" them to stop—as if it's that easy. But how? With bullets?

The border fence stops the immigrants.
That fence belongs to the US government.
When people start tearing at it or causing chaos, the police handle it using legal methods.
Since when was shooting the first option?? First, you give people a clear warning several times to stop what they're doing 👍

Lisa Patel4 said:Why on earth would anyone shoot at kids?

The only reason to fire is self-defense when there’s absolutely no other option.

Just a simple question for you. Would you rather protect an American citizen or a refugee? If you had to pick.
What matters more to you? Being humane toward strangers or protecting the American people?

By that logic, I could just shoot you right now and claim it was self-defense because you might have done the same to me one day. Self-defense only applies when you are in immediate, acute danger—meaning the other party is actually armed. Even if it's just a plastic toy gun that you genuinely believe is real. You can't justify the kind of "self-defense" you're talking about.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:The border fence stops the immigrants.
That fence belongs to the US government.
When people start tearing at it or causing chaos, the police handle it using legal methods.
Since when was shooting the first option?? First, you give people a clear warning several times to stop what they're doing 👍

Honestly, you seem to have some kind of weird obsession with that razor wire. 😁 😁

For anyone who thinks the whole razor wire thing is fake, check out this HD video:

Cutting Through Canada's Razor Wire Fence: Breaking Borders (Dispatch 6)



Disclaimer: I don't take sides. I'll call out anyone, no matter what.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:The border fence stops the immigrants.
That fence belongs to the US government.
When people start tearing at it or causing chaos, the police handle it using legal methods.
Since when was shooting the first option?? First, you give people a clear warning several times to stop what they're doing 👍

Warn them 😁How?

Look, I've been following the footage since day one... check the old threads, my links are all there. On the first day, down at the station, the police blocked everything off with barricades. There were maybe ten of them. For two hours, everything was fine until suddenly 200 people charged and broke right through the police line. What was the police doing? They were saving their own lives and backing off. THAT is an attack on the police... so what? I watched the live streams, our police, I heard people talking. Now imagine dumping 10,000 people in one single spot and telling you to defend it. That massive crowd starts surging toward you. What then? What are you actually going to do? How are you supposed to react?

David Baker2 said:No. Sadly, you didn't.
What I was actually attempting to convey—though perhaps my phrasing was too dense—was why comparing soccer matches to this situation is an utter absurdity; there is a fundamental difference in mindset between players on a field and people willing to trek thousands of miles on foot toward a specific goal.

My entire point, which I feel I have been hammering home, is that a wire fence is fundamentally meaningless if you aren't prepared to pull the trigger to defend it.
The reason people are currently slipping through easily is simply because they are taking the path of least resistance, quite logically trying to funnel those individuals through America as quickly as possible.

But look, if the borders with Mexico were completely shut and sealed on both sides, it stands to reason that the pressure would just shift to wherever it is fastest and easiest to dump the largest volume of people in the shortest amount of time.

That is precisely what I am explaining: if you aren't ready to shoot, you don't need a fence at all.
And if you *are* ready to shoot, then you don't really need the fence either.

Now, as someone mentioned earlier tonight, we're looking at waves of thousands of people who are being practically handed over by bad actors looking to screw us over.
What kind of scenario do you think would unfold if Smith just expedited the whole process and moved them all to the border fence in a single day?

And regarding this debate about razor wire... what do you honestly think would happen if some of them went out to cut that wire, only for it to maim them—or heaven forbid, a child? What kind of headlines, paired with what kind of gruesome imagery, do you think would be plastered across every major global news outlet within a matter of hours?

Look, let's stop the petty bickering for a moment; try to think objectively, without the partisan bias, and give me a straight answer.

I explained it clearly, but I guess I'll do it again :-)

Fences are only placed at illegal crossing points—the green border—where it is strictly forbidden to pass.
A fence stops immigrants.
It serves as a clear warning that they cannot go further, because crossing there is illegal.
The fence is American property.
If someone goes wild and destroys American property, the police step in using warnings, crowd control, batons... there is a whole range of police methods used to de-escalate a situation. Shooting is a last resort, only when none of those other methods work and the situation becomes critical.

If someone knowingly puts a child in danger and that child is injured, who is to blame? It doesn't matter whether you brought that child toward a fence or toward a speeding truck.

Sophia Ramos5 said:Lock cutters. On six-meter poles. Where'd the poles come from? Where'd the cutters come from? Home Depot in any suburban town.😁
Why doesn't everyone realize these people are moving up? The locals know they have money, and they use it. Just remember that guy who bought a whole house just by selling tea.

He bought a house selling tea to refugees!

There's a solution for every problem. Except for predatory payday loans.

I can't speak to this specific situation, but here in North Mexico, there are definitely people profiting off these migrants—mostly the transport operators...

They head toward the border by bus or train. I know a bus ticket costs about 10 bucks, maybe a bit less if they take the train... and that only gets them to the border.

The migrants feel like they're getting a deal because crossing North Mexico only costs them 10 bucks. The transport guys are happy too, because one bus run brings in $500 or $600, while their overhead is barely $100. And I suppose their colleagues over at the border are pretty happy as they wait to welcome them... you get the idea.

Now, those looking for a smoother ride—that's a different story. That'll cost upwards of $100. The ones with actual money want comfort, so they exclusively look for private drivers...

David Baker2 said:Is it because someone hands down such an order, for instance? 🤷

Why in the world would anyone deploy tear gas or pepper spray against children?
Well, look at how those folks over in Canada act—they’re basically like the Simpsons in South Park, they've already gone and done it.

Suppose they are pushing children forward right at you, and you are standing there guarding a perimeter like it's the Alamo; what exactly will you do if an order comes down to fire, even if it's just rubber bullets?
And you have children and a few women standing directly in front of you....

You have to protect yourself; that is an indisputable fact, and it is something I have been hammering home this entire time.
However, it is entirely possible to protect yourself while simultaneously remaining a decent human being.
Maintaining your humanity is always, regardless of the circumstances, a matter of individual choice.
For example, you might choose not to gloat over a wounded enemy soldier, opting instead to respect the Geneva Conventions. That is merely one small instance of exercising humanity within inhumane conditions.

Now, if you would be so kind as to flip back a few pages and actually read what I wrote I intended to do. I would protect women, children, and families from the Canadians, but everything else goes to the Canadians.
Let them then act according to their own consciences.
If they are going to try and slip handcuffs on us when we aren't looking, then we are certainly justified in doing the same to them. ☕

Of course nobody should be shooting at women and children. I never said that. But being humane doesn't mean committing suicide.

I suppose I can show some compassion to people who actually need help, but I’m certainly not doing it for those who'll just repay my kindness by blowing up the local school or the neighborhood grocery store.

gentlemoose57 said:Honestly? I’d defend an American over a refugee if they posed the exact same threat. And I'd definitely defend a child over an adult, or a woman over a man.
But—and this is a big "but"—I wouldn't go out of my way to defend an American against their own paranoia about refugees attacking them. In that case, I’d probably just donate some wire cutters to the refugees and give them a quick lesson on how to cut through a fence safely.

No one should be attacking refugees. I guess nobody was actually advocating for that. But when you have this whole circus where people are just spreading out across the local farmland, it’s only natural that the community gets angry.

What happens if a million people show up here? I guess we'll have to figure out how to balance security with humanity, though maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Michael Roberts7 said:By that logic, I could just shoot you right now and claim it was self-defense because you might have done the same to me one day. Self-defense only applies when you are in immediate, acute danger—meaning the other party is actually armed. Even if it's just a plastic toy gun that you genuinely believe is real. You can't justify the kind of "self-defense" you're talking about.

Go back and read the question again. I guess self-defense counts if someone is waving a machete in your face and screaming they're going to kill you because of your faith.

Sophia Ramos5 said:For anyone who thinks the whole razor wire thing is fake, check out this HD video:

Cutting Through Canada's Razor Wire Fence: Breaking Borders (Dispatch 6)

Disclaimer: I don't take sides. I'll call out anyone, no matter what.

Man, holy crap... did you see that guy holding onto it? His skin was practically peeling right off the bone.🤦🤦🤦

The Austrian Interior Minister, Miki-Leitner, says:

We need to build a fortress around Europe (roughly speaking—a wall)

I went down to check things out near Spielfeld (Šentilj 🤔), and honestly, Mikica ☕ totally lost it.

"If we can't secure the EU's outer borders, we'll lose control of the situation entirely. We have to turn Europe into a fortress," says Leitnerov.

In plain English:

"If the EU's external borders aren't secured, we won't be able to manage the situation anymore. We must build a stronghold around Europe."

comtesse, does American pharmacy carry anything for this specific type of panic disorder? ☕

It might be easy to convince us, but we aren't exactly working with much here. At best, we're looking at maybe 15 days, but in the worst-case scenario, it could be two or three months—or even longer—before things settle down. We haven't sold off everything we own or lost everything we have yet. We haven't spent months living in refugee camps either. And we haven't been listening to fairy tales about how wonderful and carefree life is in Germany or elsewhere.
You should expect people to think reasonably when they're in an emergency situation.

David Baker2 said:No. Sadly, you didn't.
What I was actually attempting to convey—though perhaps my phrasing was too dense—was why comparing soccer matches to this situation is an utter absurdity; there is a fundamental difference in mindset between players on a field and people willing to trek thousands of miles on foot toward a specific goal.

My entire point, which I feel I have been hammering home, is that a wire fence is fundamentally meaningless if you aren't prepared to pull the trigger to defend it.
The reason people are currently slipping through easily is simply because they are taking the path of least resistance, quite logically trying to funnel those individuals through America as quickly as possible.

But look, if the borders with Mexico were completely shut and sealed on both sides, it stands to reason that the pressure would just shift to wherever it is fastest and easiest to dump the largest volume of people in the shortest amount of time.

That is precisely what I am explaining: if you aren't ready to shoot, you don't need a fence at all.
And if you *are* ready to shoot, then you don't really need the fence either.

Now, as someone mentioned earlier tonight, we're looking at waves of thousands of people who are being practically handed over by bad actors looking to screw us over.
What kind of scenario do you think would unfold if Smith just expedited the whole process and moved them all to the border fence in a single day?

And regarding this debate about razor wire... what do you honestly think would happen if some of them went out to cut that wire, only for it to maim them—or heaven forbid, a child? What kind of headlines, paired with what kind of gruesome imagery, do you think would be plastered across every major global news outlet within a matter of hours?

Look, let's stop the petty bickering for a moment; try to think objectively, without the partisan bias, and give me a straight answer.

I explained it all quite clearly, but I guess I'll do it again :-)

Fences are only placed at illegal crossings—meaning the green border, where crossing is strictly prohibited.
A fence stops immigrants.
It serves as a clear warning that they cannot go any further, because crossing there is illegal.
The fence is American property.
If someone goes wild and destroys American property, the police step in using warnings, crowd control, batons... there's an entire range of police methods used to de-escalate a situation. Shooting is an option only when none of those methods work and the situation becomes critical.

If someone knowingly puts a child in danger and that child is injured, who is to blame? It doesn't matter whether you brought that child toward a fence or toward a speeding truck.

As for the media, who mentions the border situation more often?
The media in Germany, for instance, tends to be a bit coy about mentioning the closing of their own borders.

I honestly don't know how some of you humanists think America will look if we bring in 10 million people. Have you even heard of group conflict or social dynamics?

gentlemoose57 said:In that little fantasy world you've built for yourself, you're ignoring the fact that there's an entirely different route running right underneath Canada. Down here in the States, nobody's getting through. That fence simply isn't working.

And you can tell how real this is because tens of thousands of immigrants are literally "climbing the wire" every single day. 🤔

Since we're talking about living in a dream world, you, Joe Biden, Donald Trump, and all those other skeptics can keep insisting the Emperor has new clothes if you want.

But honestly, it's pretty obvious to everyone else that he's standing there completely naked. ☕

This isn't going to stop unless we see some real action

I honestly don't get where this whole narrative comes from—this idea that everyone arriving is just a refugee fleeing war zones. Is it just some trendy, high-society hipster delusion, or is there actually a deeper conspiracy at play? It feels like once you poke the bear, you're in for it. You've got these massive crowds of all sorts of characters moving in, basically following a "lay down and let them feed me" strategy—just looking for a guaranteed apartment and a government check, fueled by whatever info they pick up on those smartphones of theirs. That seems to be the main driver, which explains why they're so incredibly persistent.
And who's actually getting taken advantage of here? The poor folks from Syria who truly need a hand? They make up barely five percent of that crowd.

Our current approach is just playing it by ear as we go, but let's face it, we can't keep this up forever.
We’re going to need a Plan B. Because right now, their so-called strategies are just different versions of the exact same playbook used by people like the guys over in Mexico.

If we don't find a way to shut this down, I might as well just switch over to the Australia thread instead.

electricorca112 said:And you can tell how real this is because tens of thousands of immigrants are literally "climbing the wire" every single day. 🤔

Since we're talking about living in a dream world, you, Joe Biden, Donald Trump, and all those other skeptics can keep insisting the Emperor has new clothes if you want.

But honestly, it's pretty obvious to everyone else that he's standing there completely naked. ☕

Right now, they don't have to—they're still moving through the US without much trouble. But once it gets to the point where even crossing into the States becomes impossible? That's when things will truly go south.

Sophia Ramos5 said:For anyone who thinks the whole razor wire thing is fake, check out this HD video:

Cutting Through Canada's Razor Wire Fence: Breaking Borders (Dispatch 6)

Disclaimer: I don't take sides. I'll call out anyone, no matter what.

Don't you see how much those barriers slowed them down and made the crossing harder? And that’s just a small setup compared to what they have along the southern border now, or even over in places like Texas.
The authorities in some areas have multiple layers of fencing, and some groups have even rigged electricity through certain sections.
On top of that, a fence is pretty useless if there isn't anyone actively guarding it.
How many officers would it take to secure a green border without any physical barrier? But once you have a fence in place, you only need a few people stationed behind it to spray pepper spray into the eyes of anyone trying to get too close.
A fence is just one essential component in a proper border security strategy.