Immigration General Discussion Volume IV (Read the first post and moderator warning on page 309)

Sophia Ramos5 said:Honestly, true. It's better to be born without a nose than to be born without an imagination.

What does a cubic yard of planks cost these days? $400. Someone is clearly profiting here, parking loads of lumber right up against the border every single day. You just pile the boards up until the weight pulls the wire tight. And the netting? Why bother even setting that up?

The fence is sitting firmly on American soil, fully protected by the US police.
You can't just show up with a pile of lumber near the boundary line without some sort of welcoming committee forming on the other side to defend it.
Go ahead, stack those boards while your eyes are stinging from tear gas. Cross that line only when you're certain a baton is waiting for you.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:Check out what manufacturers show on their websites regarding razor-wire fencing. They take a roll of it, set up a wooden dummy in front of it, and then use a remote to slice through the wire. Just look at what’s left of that dummy once the razor blades have shredded it during the cutting and unwinding process. It's absolute carnage. No one is going to attempt to cross that, no matter how desperate they might be.
Are you all honestly picturing some old-school, basic barbed wire used by the military back in the day?

😁 Man, you gotta watch the video linked above:

gentlemoose57 said:Look, nobody is talking about basic barbed wire here; we are talking about razor wire. For crying out loud! A prison perimeter is usually miles long.

Sophia Ramos5 said:No way. It's obvious you weren't paying attention to the protests in Ukraine. Go find the footage that isn't being shown on the nightly news. Their tactics against "turtles" are highly developed. Here's a hint: the turtle that can see through the visor is the dangerous one.

The police inactivity during the riots in Detroit was honestly baffling. Let's not even get into the specifics of why things were handled that way.

Gregory Hall66 said:They won't be driving up to some flooded riverbank either; instead, they will likely head toward a bridge in Brandenburg or perhaps near the Red Bush in Herzegovina.

And now, for the grand prize question:

- If 2,000 of them attempt to cross via a bridge in Brandenburg, will the police actually dare to use water cannons or rubber bullets against them?

Let me ask you a purely human question, just to get to the heart of this matter.

If you were standing there in a police uniform, and someone gave you a direct order to open fire on children, could you actually bring yourself to do it?
Personally, I know my own limits—I couldn't do it.
I’d sooner put a bullet in my own head or take out the person giving such a horrific command before I ever pulled that trigger against a child.

We really ought to try and step into those people's shoes for a moment, to truly empathize with their plight, rather than forcing anyone into a position where they are faced with such an impossible, soul-crushing decision.
The goal should always be to do everything humanly possible to prevent these situations from ever happening in the first place.

David Baker2 said:Exactly.
If only you actually had the guts to pull the trigger.

That's where the real danger lies. 😁

So, let me get this straight: you’d be perfectly fine cutting the throat of a Border Patrol agent, yet you’re arguing that he isn't permitted to fire in self-defense? Is that really your stance?

David Baker2 said:Let me ask you a purely human question, just to get to the heart of this matter.

If you were standing there in a police uniform, and someone gave you a direct order to open fire on children, could you actually bring yourself to do it?
Personally, I know my own limits—I couldn't do it.
I’d sooner put a bullet in my own head or take out the person giving such a horrific command before I ever pulled that trigger against a child.

We really ought to try and step into those people's shoes for a moment, to truly empathize with their plight, rather than forcing anyone into a position where they are faced with such an impossible, soul-crushing decision.
The goal should always be to do everything humanly possible to prevent these situations from ever happening in the first place.

Why on earth would anyone shoot at kids?

The only reason to fire is self-defense when there’s absolutely no other option.

Just a simple question for you. Would you rather protect an American citizen or a refugee? If you had to pick.
What matters more to you? Being humane toward strangers or protecting the American people?

Alexander Ortiz3 said:So, let me get this straight: you’d be perfectly fine cutting the throat of a Border Patrol agent, yet you’re arguing that he isn't permitted to fire in self-defense? Is that really your stance?

Not exactly. He’s arguing that the police don't have the authority to use force against immigrants. Like everyone on this forum thinks they can just "force" them to stop—as if it's that easy. But how? With bullets?

Alexander Ortiz3 said:We obviously aren't going to go around beating anyone!
You put up a fence, station the police behind it, and calmly inform them that illegal entry isn't allowed. It's possible that certain individuals among the immigrants won't want to leave and will break the law, causing chaos or attacking our police. It's just like how we don't beat sports fans! But what happens when specific individuals within a crowd of fans break the law, act out, and attack the police?
How would the American public view that kind of barbarism at the border (granted, we're talking about specific individuals)?
Because if you don't have a fence, they just walk through, and then our police are forced to take action to stop them.
But when you have a fence, the burden shifts to those trying to cross it, and they can only attempt it through the methods I just described.

And what exactly is the US doing with those who cross the border illegally?

Harold Evans4 said:Not exactly. He’s arguing that the police don't have the authority to use force against immigrants. Like everyone on this forum thinks they can just "force" them to stop—as if it's that easy. But how? With bullets?

Stopping them is actually quite easy, but then again, you can't be more Catholic than the Pope.

Sophia Ramos5 said:Where on earth did you find Calais to bring up?
Here’s a photo. Just some kitchen shears from Walmart. 😁
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Channel.html

Yeah, because everyone just magically left those jungle camps...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ngle-camp.html

French police were being so useless that the British actually suggested sending troops to handle protection...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10449340.html

Have you ever seen what happens when you try to cut through razor wire?
It’s designed to unravel right onto whoever tries to tear it. Every single meter is covered in dozens of razor-sharp blades, sharpened on all four sides. It slices through anything in its path. This type of fencing is built specifically for maximum security prisons here in the States. Nowadays, they're installing it along borders in multiple layers, one right above the other. You can't move it without an excavator without getting noticed, and once you're spotted, you've got armored vehicles on one side and tear gas and pepper spray on the other... so if anyone's feeling particularly brave, feel free to try racing through that wire.

What is wrong with you people? 🤣

Given how many kids—under 14—are part of these immigrant families, just firing blindly makes it nearly impossible to hit anyone accurately.
Honestly, you could toss a rock and hit ten innocent kids instead... but no, you all seem hell-bent on aiming at children.

🙏

Alexander Ortiz3 said:So, let me get this straight: you’d be perfectly fine cutting the throat of a Border Patrol agent, yet you’re arguing that he isn't permitted to fire in self-defense? Is that really your stance?

No. Sadly, you didn't.
What I was actually attempting to convey—though perhaps my phrasing was too dense—was why comparing soccer matches to this situation is an utter absurdity; there is a fundamental difference in mindset between players on a field and people willing to trek thousands of miles on foot toward a specific goal.

My entire point, which I feel I have been hammering home, is that a wire fence is fundamentally meaningless if you aren't prepared to pull the trigger to defend it.
The reason people are currently slipping through easily is simply because they are taking the path of least resistance, quite logically trying to funnel those individuals through America as quickly as possible.

But look, if the borders with Mexico were completely shut and sealed on both sides, it stands to reason that the pressure would just shift to wherever it is fastest and easiest to dump the largest volume of people in the shortest amount of time.

That is precisely what I am explaining: if you aren't ready to shoot, you don't need a fence at all.
And if you *are* ready to shoot, then you don't really need the fence either.

Now, as someone mentioned earlier tonight, we're looking at waves of thousands of people who are being practically handed over by bad actors looking to screw us over.
What kind of scenario do you think would unfold if Smith just expedited the whole process and moved them all to the border fence in a single day?

And regarding this debate about razor wire... what do you honestly think would happen if some of them went out to cut that wire, only for it to maim them—or heaven forbid, a child? What kind of headlines, paired with what kind of gruesome imagery, do you think would be plastered across every major global news outlet within a matter of hours?

Look, let's stop the petty bickering for a moment; try to think objectively, without the partisan bias, and give me a straight answer.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:Have you ever seen what happens when you try to cut through razor wire?
It’s designed to unravel right onto whoever tries to tear it. Every single meter is covered in dozens of razor-sharp blades, sharpened on all four sides. It slices through anything in its path. This type of fencing is built specifically for maximum security prisons here in the States. Nowadays, they're installing it along borders in multiple layers, one right above the other. You can't move it without an excavator without getting noticed, and once you're spotted, you've got armored vehicles on one side and tear gas and pepper spray on the other... so if anyone's feeling particularly brave, feel free to try racing through that wire.

There’s a post above with a link showing the wire being cut and how they crawl under it, but that misses the point entirely. The real issue isn't the obstacle; it's that people shouldn't be going where they aren't wanted in the first place. When these folks get stopped, they just whine—"Why? Why?" because in their own minds, they think they belong there and don't see why anyone would stop them. If they actually realized they were heading straight toward water cannons, tear gas, and police batons, they wouldn't be making the trip. The numbers would drop significantly if they had any sense.

northerncyclist2 said:Wait, what?

Both the Canadian and Bulgarian border fences were partially funded by the European Union using funds specifically designated for the EU's external border defense. I don't see what part of that is confusing.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:Have you ever seen what happens when you try to cut through razor wire?
It’s designed to unravel right onto whoever tries to tear it. Every single meter is covered in dozens of razor-sharp blades, sharpened on all four sides. It slices through anything in its path. This type of fencing is built specifically for maximum security prisons here in the States. Nowadays, they're installing it along borders in multiple layers, one right above the other. You can't move it without an excavator without getting noticed, and once you're spotted, you've got armored vehicles on one side and tear gas and pepper spray on the other... so if anyone's feeling particularly brave, feel free to try racing through that wire.

Lock cutters. On six-meter poles. Where'd the poles come from? Where'd the cutters come from? Home Depot in any suburban town.😁
Why doesn't everyone realize these people are moving up? The locals know they have money, and they use it. Just remember that guy who bought a whole house just by selling tea.

He bought a house selling tea to refugees!

There's a solution for every problem. Except for predatory payday loans.

Paul Thomas46 said:By my rough estimation (🙏) I’ve concluded that slo completely missed the mark with their strategy.

They were trying to play defense based on some arbitrary target—you know, "we want them to hit 124.7 at some point during the day" or whatever...
That isn't how this works. You either clear a corridor to let them through immediately, or you build up the walls and start firing. There just aren't any middle-ground solutions here...

Canada 1 report at 5:00 PM
The mayor of a small town near the border is clearly reaching his breaking point: this is unsustainable. He’s calling for us to act like Americans and just hold the line at the border.

Lisa Patel4 said:Why on earth would anyone shoot at kids?

The only reason to fire is self-defense when there’s absolutely no other option.

Just a simple question for you. Would you rather protect an American citizen or a refugee? If you had to pick.
What matters more to you? Being humane toward strangers or protecting the American people?

Is it because someone hands down such an order, for instance? 🤷

Why in the world would anyone deploy tear gas or pepper spray against children?
Well, look at how those folks over in Canada act—they’re basically like the Simpsons in South Park, they've already gone and done it.

Suppose they are pushing children forward right at you, and you are standing there guarding a perimeter like it's the Alamo; what exactly will you do if an order comes down to fire, even if it's just rubber bullets?
And you have children and a few women standing directly in front of you....

You have to protect yourself; that is an indisputable fact, and it is something I have been hammering home this entire time.
However, it is entirely possible to protect yourself while simultaneously remaining a decent human being.
Maintaining your humanity is always, regardless of the circumstances, a matter of individual choice.
For example, you might choose not to gloat over a wounded enemy soldier, opting instead to respect the Geneva Conventions. That is merely one small instance of exercising humanity within inhumane conditions.

Now, if you would be so kind as to flip back a few pages and actually read what I wrote I intended to do. I would protect women, children, and families from the Canadians, but everything else goes to the Canadians.
Let them then act according to their own consciences.
If they are going to try and slip handcuffs on us when we aren't looking, then we are certainly justified in doing the same to them. ☕

Alexander Ortiz3 said:Have you ever seen what happens when you try to cut through razor wire?
It’s designed to unravel right onto whoever tries to tear it. Every single meter is covered in dozens of razor-sharp blades, sharpened on all four sides. It slices through anything in its path. This type of fencing is built specifically for maximum security prisons here in the States. Nowadays, they're installing it along borders in multiple layers, one right above the other. You can't move it without an excavator without getting noticed, and once you're spotted, you've got armored vehicles on one side and tear gas and pepper spray on the other... so if anyone's feeling particularly brave, feel free to try racing through that wire.

It’s designed for 🤦 It's just a coil of wire. You install it using heavy-duty PVC gloves and specialized tools from a hardware store. If you really need to clear a section, you just set up two posts, tie off the segments, and cut out the middle bit. For heaven's sake, stop watching too many action movies.

Paul Thomas46 said:What is wrong with you people? 🤣

Given how many kids—under 14—are part of these immigrant families, just firing blindly makes it nearly impossible to hit anyone accurately.
Honestly, you could toss a rock and hit ten innocent kids instead... but no, you all seem hell-bent on aiming at children.

🙏

It doesn't matter what any of us think.
Our individual opinions carry absolutely zero weight in this conversation.

What matters is what the global media outlets decide to broadcast and print. And let’s be real, they sure as hell aren't going to put photos of some scrawny kids on their front pages.

Everyone seems to have forgotten how the modern media landscape actually functions and, more importantly, who actually owns these massive corporations.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:The police inactivity during the riots in Detroit was honestly baffling. Let's not even get into the specifics of why things were handled that way.

Here's a single hint for you. Look at that initial surge at the crossing. By September 15th, people were even spray-painting slogans on sheets—something along the lines of "Thank you, America." Where does spray paint come from at a remote border crossing? Go study how they handled things at the border.

Lisa Patel4 said:Why on earth would anyone shoot at kids?

The only reason to fire is self-defense when there’s absolutely no other option.

Just a simple question for you. Would you rather protect an American citizen or a refugee? If you had to pick.
What matters more to you? Being humane toward strangers or protecting the American people?

Honestly? I’d defend an American over a refugee if they posed the exact same threat. And I'd definitely defend a child over an adult, or a woman over a man.
But—and this is a big "but"—I wouldn't go out of my way to defend an American against their own paranoia about refugees attacking them. In that case, I’d probably just donate some wire cutters to the refugees and give them a quick lesson on how to cut through a fence safely.