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Home › Society › Politics › Close to Politics › Immigration General Discussion Volume IV (Read the first post and moderator warning on page 309)

Immigration General Discussion Volume IV (Read the first post and moderator warning on page 309)

Started by Charles Fox10 · · 👁 106 views · 1.8K replies

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Participants Charles Fox10Peter Reed70Jessica King9Morgan Ruiz3Daniel Johnson3Sophia Myers7quietowl2redridge35Eric Newman4hollowlynx66Amanda Moore8Maria James40mellowotter17Paul Thomas46Ronald Howard3nimbleharbor10Brenda Carter39Steven Perez6crimsonjackal63Alexander Ortiz3Anthony Cooper2slyviper94Adam BarrettJoshua Kelly51 …
Michael Roberts7 Michael Roberts7 Member
44 messages
joined Jun 2011
#941 ·
Lisa Patel4 said:I honestly don't know how some of you humanists think America will look if we bring in 10 million people. Have you even heard of group conflict or social dynamics?

Personally, I find it hard to wrap my head around why some people are so terrified that they can't see these individuals as just people like us. You'll find honest, wonderful, sincere souls... just as you'll find thieves, religious fanatics, and predators in roughly the same percentages you'd find anywhere else in the world.
The most ridiculous comparisons are the ones where people claim the police are beating up thugs...
And it seems nobody realizes that while these people are Muslim, they are actually fleeing from ISIS and the Taliban—which is exactly why there is such a massive wave of military conscripts coming from both Syria and Afghanistan.

We shouldn't generalize, but we really need to send back anyone who doesn't have a legal right to stay.
Patrick Castillo4 Patrick Castillo4 Member
26 messages
joined Oct 2012
#942 ·
Yeah, you’ve gotta try setting up some boundaries and making it clear that you just can't do business with a mob like that.

Because, let's be honest, it’s a total mob—I mean, where does this whole idea come from, that they're just people who lost everything when nobody even knows who they are in the first place?
This has turned into a massive wave of migration—so what, things aren't looking great over in Pakistan?
I mean, whatever, life isn't exactly a walk in the park for me here either... just bad luck, I guess..
hiddenmarlin14 hiddenmarlin14 Active Member
55 messages
joined Feb 2018
#943 ·
Michael Roberts7 said:Personally, I find it hard to wrap my head around why some people are so terrified that they can't see these individuals as just people like us. You'll find honest, wonderful, sincere souls... just as you'll find thieves, religious fanatics, and predators in roughly the same percentages you'd find anywhere else in the world.
The most ridiculous comparisons are the ones where people claim the police are beating up thugs...
And it seems nobody realizes that while these people are Muslim, they are actually fleeing from ISIS and the Taliban—which is exactly why there is such a massive wave of military conscripts coming from both Syria and Afghanistan.

We shouldn't generalize, but we really need to send back anyone who doesn't have a legal right to stay.

Fine, go ahead and bring them back. They don't have paperwork. You don't even know where they're from, and there are tons of them. In places like San Diego, they're expecting 60,000 refugees in the next few days, while a nearby small town barely has 1,000 residents.

Just imagine: you're alone in your own country, and suddenly 60 people show up—50 of them men, with the rest being women and children. How much humanity does it take to push down that fear and confusion in your heart?
Alexander Ortiz3 Alexander Ortiz3 Active Member
164 messages
joined Jan 2012
#944 ·
Harold Evans4 said:Warn them 😁How?

Look, I've been following the footage since day one... check the old threads, my links are all there. On the first day, down at the station, the police blocked everything off with barricades. There were maybe ten of them. For two hours, everything was fine until suddenly 200 people charged and broke right through the police line. What was the police doing? They were saving their own lives and backing off. THAT is an attack on the police... so what? I watched the live streams, our police, I heard people talking. Now imagine dumping 10,000 people in one single spot and telling you to defend it. That massive crowd starts surging toward you. What then? What are you actually going to do? How are you supposed to react?

Standard police procedure dictates that you first issue a warning to anyone breaking the law; if that doesn't work, other methods are employed, and in extreme cases involving critical danger, firearms are used.
That's why we need barriers first, and once those are in place, you defend the perimeter, starting with verbal warnings... but if the lawbreakers escalate the situation that much, the police have various tactics at their disposal after the warnings have been given.
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#945 ·
Alexander Ortiz3 said:Don't you see how much those barriers slowed them down and made the crossing harder? And that’s just a small setup compared to what they have along the southern border now, or even over in places like Texas.
The authorities in some areas have multiple layers of fencing, and some groups have even rigged electricity through certain sections.
On top of that, a fence is pretty useless if there isn't anyone actively guarding it.
How many officers would it take to secure a green border without any physical barrier? But once you have a fence in place, you only need a few people stationed behind it to spray pepper spray into the eyes of anyone trying to get too close.
A fence is just one essential component in a proper border security strategy.

It slowed them down simply because there wasn't enough of it! Most of them already made their way through America. Sure, a massive surge might get bottlenecked by a fence at first, but once that barrier gives way... well, then you're left with nothing but the option to use lethal force. And let's face it—no one is going to do that. Who exactly is going to start opening fire?
Which officer is going to pull that trigger?
Alexander Ortiz3 Alexander Ortiz3 Active Member
164 messages
joined Jan 2012
#946 ·
gentlemoose57 said:It slowed them down simply because there wasn't enough of it! Most of them already made their way through America. Sure, a massive surge might get bottlenecked by a fence at first, but once that barrier gives way... well, then you're left with nothing but the option to use lethal force. And let's face it—no one is going to do that. Who exactly is going to start opening fire?
Which officer is going to pull that trigger?

It won't even get to the point of shooting. It’ll be enough if a few of them are sent running back after a close encounter with tear gas and batons; that's plenty to make the rest start looking for another route.
If things actually escalated to gunfire, it would be directed at the agitators, not just anyone.
Do you honestly think this woman is going to be some rogue element that they feel forced to stop with a bullet?
Michael Roberts7 Michael Roberts7 Member
44 messages
joined Jun 2011
#947 ·
hiddenmarlin14 said:Fine, go ahead and bring them back. They don't have paperwork. You don't even know where they're from, and there are tons of them. In places like San Diego, they're expecting 60,000 refugees in the next few days, while a nearby small town barely has 1,000 residents.

Just imagine: you're alone in your own country, and suddenly 60 people show up—50 of them men, with the rest being women and children. How much humanity does it take to push down that fear and confusion in your heart?

How many of you claiming to be afraid have actually had Refugee Contact or even seen this happening in person?
Go ask around Maui and I'm sure you'll find someone willing to parrot the same old lines. It's perfectly rational to be scared if you drop 1,000 refugees onto a tiny village of 100 people and expect nothing but a handful of local police officers to keep things under control at Satore.
Most of you here haven't had any personal contact with them, nor have you ever seen anything with your own eyes!
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#948 ·
Alexander Ortiz3 said:It won't even get to the point of shooting. It’ll be enough if a few of them are sent running back after a close encounter with tear gas and batons; that's plenty to make the rest start looking for another route.
If things actually escalated to gunfire, it would be directed at the agitators, not just anyone.
Do you honestly think this woman is going to be some rogue element that they feel forced to stop with a bullet?

Now, if they have any sense—and let's face it, they usually do—those types will be right there on the front lines. And I'll tell you one thing, I guarantee people are going to have much more stomach for living alongside immigrants than they will for treating poor human beings like animals behind a fence using the exact kind of methods you seem so fond of.
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#949 ·
Michael Roberts7 said:How many of you claiming to be afraid have actually had Refugee Contact or even seen this happening in person?
Go ask around Maui and I'm sure you'll find someone willing to parrot the same old lines. It's perfectly rational to be scared if you drop 1,000 refugees onto a tiny village of 100 people and expect nothing but a handful of local police officers to keep things under control at Satore.
Most of you here haven't had any personal contact with them, nor have you ever seen anything with your own eyes!

A good number of my friends head out to small towns in the Midwest—places like rural Nebraska or Iowa—whenever they get the chance. When you get huge crowds bunched up together, things can get messy; a mob is always going to be suggestible and prone to panic, particularly if they feel cornered or blocked in. But on an individual level? They are truly wonderful people.
Michael Roberts7 Michael Roberts7 Member
44 messages
joined Jun 2011
#950 ·
gentlemoose57 said:A good number of my friends head out to small towns in the Midwest—places like rural Nebraska or Iowa—whenever they get the chance. When you get huge crowds bunched up together, things can get messy; a mob is always going to be suggestible and prone to panic, particularly if they feel cornered or blocked in. But on an individual level? They are truly wonderful people.

To be fair, none of us would act any differently in those circumstances.
Even our own restless countrymen would likely resort to fighting if they were being crammed into tight enclosures where privacy and peace are non-existent.
Harold Evans4 Harold Evans4 Active Member
50 messages
joined Mar 2015
#951 ·
Alexander Ortiz3 said:Standard police procedure dictates that you first issue a warning to anyone breaking the law; if that doesn't work, other methods are employed, and in extreme cases involving critical danger, firearms are used.
That's why we need barriers first, and once those are in place, you defend the perimeter, starting with verbal warnings... but if the lawbreakers escalate the situation that much, the police have various tactics at their disposal after the warnings have been given.

I don't get why you're quoting me if you aren't actually answering my question. You're completely ignoring the scenario I laid out. You seem to be picturing some scene where a beat cop rolls into town to arrest a couple of teenagers and they just surrender the second they see a badge. That's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about a mob of 10,000 people packed into a tiny area. Who are you going to negotiate with? For starters, we wouldn't even be speaking the same language, and besides, when a crowd that big is screaming and rioting, you can't hear a damn thing. What kind of "warning" are you even talking about?
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#952 ·
Michael Roberts7 said:To be fair, none of us would act any differently in those circumstances.
Even our own restless countrymen would likely resort to fighting if they were being crammed into tight enclosures where privacy and peace are non-existent.

Oh, absolutely they would. It’s a given. Humans haven't actually evolved all that much—once things get tense, we all revert right back to our primal roots. Our "civilization"—if you can even call it that—is really just a byproduct of living life relatively comfortably.
David Baker2 David Baker2 Active Member
101 messages
joined Jan 2014
#953 ·
Lisa Patel4 said:I honestly don't know how some of you humanists think America will look if we bring in 10 million people. Have you even heard of group conflict or social dynamics?

Look.
If you have been following this thread from the jump, you should theoretically remember my points back in Volume 1.
I was speaking about two distinct waves.
The only thing that separated my outlook from tihobl's was one single detail: I foolishly assumed we would see a lull over the winter—a brief respite before spring—whereas he insisted the pressure would be constant, and quite frankly, he was right and I was wrong.

But both of us landed on the same two conclusions:
1. We are going to miss the first wave by continuing exactly the path we are currently on.
2. We need to halt the flow at the North Mexico border and provide the North Mexicans with whatever assistance they require—even deploying the military if necessary—to ensure the stoppage happens there.

Unfortunately, it seems we are all fools while everyone else is supposedly brilliant.
Sadly, all of us in this region—and let’s be honest, the Canadians fall into that same intellectual category—seem more preoccupied with ensuring our neighbors lose their cows than making sure everyone has at least two.
It is tragic that Nikolić and Vučić are more interested in shackling us than in providing actual aid to themselves, to us, or to anyone in North Mexico.
Regrettably, the Canadians are actively leveraging their actions to fuel their election campaigns, and their reward will likely be control over ExxonMobil and the systematic undoing of every legal safeguard protecting American citizens from corruption.

But facts are stubborn things, and they don't change just because we dislike them.
The reality remains: this can only be stopped in North Mexico, and that is the only place where a meaningful blockade can be coordinated.
Which is why, quite simply, putting up a fence on the American border is a complete waste of resources.

Instead of reaching agreements and offering mutual support, we are mired in total chaos, with everyone being forced to absorb the fallout instead of the threatened nations acting in concert.

In the end, this won't benefit anyone. No one comes out on top here. Not the Canadians with their fences, and certainly not us without them.

That is the cold, hard truth for anyone willing to look at it objectively.

Right now, all we are doing is reacting to the situation where the Mexicans and Canadians are effectively pinning us down. That is the extent of it.
Given the circumstances, regardless of whose side you take, we have managed to suffer minimal damage thus far.
In that regard, one must give credit to Ostojić, Milanović, and this administration.
We owe them thanks for how they have handled everything up to this point.
And that goes for every police officer and individual working tirelessly on the front lines.

Fences work. The military works.
But both are utterly futile if placed on the American border.

Those assets need to be deployed where they will have the maximum impact, which is the Greece-North Mexico border.

If the Forex idea falls through, or if the negotiations with Turkey collapse, and we fail to direct our strength and funding toward where it yields the highest return—North Mexico—
we are all going to end up completely exposed.
Us, the Mexicans, the Mexicans, and even the Canadians with all their fancy razor wire.

It is as simple as that.
Blame it on whoever you want.

There is no deep philosophy involved.

Unfortunately, all signs point to the fact that the second wave has already begun, yet we are still distracted by pre-election games and petty regional squabbles.

If it were up to me, I would drag the Mexicans and the Canadians into a room and simply ask the North Mexicans: "People, what do you actually need?"

But of course, nobody asks for my opinion.

As it stands, Kolinda and the Republican Party will sell us out for pennies. In fact, they've essentially sold us out already.
All for the sake of a measly 1-2% increase in votes at the polls. 🙂
nimblecrane6 nimblecrane6 Newcomer
6 messages
joined Oct 2015
#954 ·
gentlemoose57 said:A good number of my friends head out to small towns in the Midwest—places like rural Nebraska or Iowa—whenever they get the chance. When you get huge crowds bunched up together, things can get messy; a mob is always going to be suggestible and prone to panic, particularly if they feel cornered or blocked in. But on an individual level? They are truly wonderful people.

Honestly, it just makes me bitter that we have to waste resources processing rowdy fans and those throwing stones at parades. Damn these groups and their behavior—they’re lovely people otherwise. They could be directing the costs of all these legal proceedings toward helping people in need instead, for God's sake.
Patrick Castillo4 Patrick Castillo4 Member
26 messages
joined Oct 2012
#955 ·
gentlemoose57 said:Oh, absolutely they would. It’s a given. Humans haven't actually evolved all that much—once things get tense, we all revert right back to our primal roots. Our "civilization"—if you can even call it that—is really just a byproduct of living life relatively comfortably.

Spot on.
Even though my last post got nuked because apparently I was being too "politically incorrect"—which, honestly, was just me telling the truth
In this age of high tech, supposed "humanism," and everyone walking around with selfie sticks, we’re basically watching a rerun of medieval barbarism... you know, the whole burning people at the stake or decapitation thing, straight out of a Dracula movie.

When it all boils down to basic survival—like, can we actually put food on the table or find a roof over our heads?—all the polite masks are going to slip. We could end up facing pretty much any of those wild scenarios you see playing out on the History Channel right now.
Jamie Anderson86 Jamie Anderson86 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Mar 2015
#956 ·
Michael Roberts7 said:To be fair, none of us would act any differently in those circumstances.
Even our own restless countrymen would likely resort to fighting if they were being crammed into tight enclosures where privacy and peace are non-existent.

I agree completely. They should be transferred to Germany with minimal delay from the US. Let them build their own makeshift camps over there instead.
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#957 ·
Patrick Castillo4 said:Spot on.
Even though my last post got nuked because apparently I was being too "politically incorrect"—which, honestly, was just me telling the truth
In this age of high tech, supposed "humanism," and everyone walking around with selfie sticks, we’re basically watching a rerun of medieval barbarism... you know, the whole burning people at the stake or decapitation thing, straight out of a Dracula movie.

When it all boils down to basic survival—like, can we actually put food on the table or find a roof over our heads?—all the polite masks are going to slip. We could end up facing pretty much any of those wild scenarios you see playing out on the History Channel right now.

human hierarchy of needs by Maslow 🙂
neonhound18 neonhound18 Active Member
192 messages
joined Apr 2013
#958 ·
Lisa Patel4 said:I honestly don't know how some of you humanists think America will look if we bring in 10 million people. Have you even heard of group conflict or social dynamics?

My own fear—and I say this with a certain degree of trepidation—is that this won't just start with localized unrest and end with a series of civil wars that would make our own historical domestic conflicts look like little more than playground squabbles, though I truly, deeply hope I am being overly pessimistic. 😢
Karen Doyle72 Karen Doyle72 Active Member
125 messages
joined May 2013
#959 ·
It honestly feels like modern warfare just got a complete makeover.
Forget all that heavy hardware and tactical training. Forget the high-tech gadgets, the drones, or even the tanks.

Nowadays, if you want to breach a border, all you really need is a crowd of motivated civilians—men, women, kids—some intense media coverage, and a government bureaucracy that’s too paralyzed to actually do anything.
And when it comes to occupation? You don't even need boots on the ground anymore; you just need favorable demographics to shift the landscape.
If they want to enslave us, they won't use chains—they'll just bury us under a mountain of consumer debt.

And the worst part? They’re unstoppable. Nobody is even remotely thinking about standing up to them. It’s brilliant, really. :klap:
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#960 ·
Karen Doyle72 said:It honestly feels like modern warfare just got a complete makeover.
Forget all that heavy hardware and tactical training. Forget the high-tech gadgets, the drones, or even the tanks.

Nowadays, if you want to breach a border, all you really need is a crowd of motivated civilians—men, women, kids—some intense media coverage, and a government bureaucracy that’s too paralyzed to actually do anything.
And when it comes to occupation? You don't even need boots on the ground anymore; you just need favorable demographics to shift the landscape.
If they want to enslave us, they won't use chains—they'll just bury us under a mountain of consumer debt.

And the worst part? They’re unstoppable. Nobody is even remotely thinking about standing up to them. It’s brilliant, really. :klap:

And what’s so strange about that? We're moving forward—we aren't the same savages we were a thousand years ago.

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