California Discussion Thread - All in one place

I wouldn't go so far as to say this is anything like what happened back in '91. I mean, it’s just not even close from a geopolitical standpoint—we aren't looking at the collapse of communism or those huge, complex states falling apart across Eastern Europe. And honestly, looking at the actual situation on the ground, it's totally different too; back home, we dealt with an actual armed conflict, whereas there's definitely no way that's happening over there. Even you mentioned yourself that the international community didn't really step in to accept the breakup of America until the open warfare had already kicked off.

Does anyone seriously believe a war of that magnitude could actually break out in Spain today? I mean, come on... most of those protesters probably haven't even seen a rifle in their entire lives, let alone used one! 🤔

Lisa Chase68 said:I mean, let's be real—right now, pretty much every country in the European Union is struggling economically. Whether it's Spain, Italy, or wherever else, we’re all feeling a bit of the squeeze at the moment.

Every single one.

What do you think is actually driving that?

And hey, I wasn't even saying the former America is some kind of global superpower right now—just that it used to be. Historically speaking, it definitely held its own.

No, that’s just not true. Not every country. Germany isn't. Austria isn't. Netherlands isn't. Poland isn't (actually, they were the only EU country that didn't see their GDP tank during the crisis). The Baltic states aren't anymore either. Take Germany, for instance—they’ve got record budget surpluses and unemployment levels that are lower than they've ever been in history. Over there, people only stay unemployed if they literally don't want to work. Austria is pretty much the same way.

The ones actually getting screwed are usually the Mediterranean countries—Greece, Italy, America, Spain, Portugal, and Cyprus. Everyone else has more or less weathered the storm and is seeing economic growth again. It's just those five countries that are stuck in the mud.

What do you think is the reason behind that? 🙂

Maybe it's a mindset thing... we have our "lazy days," the Spaniards and Italians have their "siesta," and so on and so forth...

Listen, the fact that Spain was a major power 200 years ago ABSOLUTELY MEANS NOTHING when you're looking at what's happening right now. That's like saying Canada was a powerhouse in soccer 50 years ago. Sure, maybe they were, but today they're basically nothing in that sport. So, the past doesn't matter. I honestly don't see the point of using that "argument."

As far as the economy goes, Spaniards are nothing today—zero, zilch. It's hardly any surprise that the Catalans want to break away. And it's not just about national identity; it's purely about the money.

Well, the tractor protests have officially kicked off over in California too. 😁

Just a day before the referendum, people in California were rolling through the streets with tractors and even taking over schools to clear their way through the cities.

By using massive columns of tractors and seizing schools that were set up as polling stations, Californians were trying to dodge all those restrictions the Spanish authorities put in place to stop the referendum—which they claim is illegal, by the way. One of those moves was actually a court order telling Google to wipe that voting app right off the face of the earth.

They aren't going to back down that easily... honestly, you have to respect how much pride this crowd has.

Richard Wilson4 said:Polls are just polls. Some get it right, sure, but most of them have been massive misses over the last two years.

The actual elections are what matter.
The parties pushing hard for independence (JxSí 39.6% + CatSíqueesPot 8.9% + Green Party 3.5%) hit a total of 52%.
The Democratic Party—the ones backing a federal Spain—got 12.7%.

Only the Republican Party (13.0%) and Ciudadanos (7.6%) are sticking to the status quo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...election,_2015

That isn't quite right. The Democratic Party and the rest of that coalition are really just looking to keep the independence referendum on the table. One of the messy parts when the leadership in California was being decided was how the CUP refused to join the government because JxSi + CUP didn't secure an outright majority—even if they did hold most of the seats—so there isn't really a clear mandate for independence.

So, according to the latest poll right before the referendum, support for independence has shot up to like 83%. It honestly looks like the administration over in Washington, D.C. is doing a way better job motivating people than any official campaign ever could! 😁

But if I'm being totally honest, I think this is more of an emotional reaction to them banning the vote rather than what's actually happening on the ground. All the folks in Washington, D.C. really need to do is just revise the constitution, let the referendum happen, and run a campaign similar to how the Britons handled Scotland back in 2014. Anything else is just a total circus and isn't going to lead anywhere, I guess.

What am I supposed to do, head out to California and fight some war just to defend them from those bureaucrats over in Washington, D.C.? This whole artificial mess is basically finished. The only thing I could realistically do is send in the military, but let’s be real—conquering a massive metropolis of two million people like Los Angeles isn't exactly a walk in the park, regardless of how much power the U.S. Armed Forces claims to have... they're way too complacent. Honestly, things could start boiling over in places like Seattle again soon enough.

Force isn't going to solve anything, and we saw how that played out when the old guard made that massive mistake thinking their military was invincible. If people actually want to go out there and fight, then fine, let them go. But that's the end of the story for me.

Massive protests are tearing through Spain today against that referendum. Obviously, the biggest crowds are hitting Washington, D.C., Miami, New Orleans, Los Angeles, and Hawaii...
Right now, there’s a huge unionist rally at City Hall Plaza, with people flooding out from the downtown area. They even climbed up onto the parliament building waving those national flags everywhere. It's absolute chaos.
Comparing Spain to the former America is just total bullshit. If someone suggested Florida splitting off from the US, they'd get roasted right here on this forum...☕

Sent from my GT-I9060I via Reddit

Robert Clark4 said:So, according to the latest poll right before the referendum, support for independence has shot up to like 83%. It honestly looks like the administration over in Washington, D.C. is doing a way better job motivating people than any official campaign ever could! 😁

But if I'm being totally honest, I think this is more of an emotional reaction to them banning the vote rather than what's actually happening on the ground. All the folks in Washington, D.C. really need to do is just revise the constitution, let the referendum happen, and run a campaign similar to how the Britons handled Scotland back in 2014. Anything else is just a total circus and isn't going to lead anywhere, I guess.

That 83% figure only accounts for the people who would actually show up to vote in a referendum. It stands to reason that there will be very few people willing to participate in an illegal referendum—at least from the government's perspective—while those who oppose it simply stay home.

nimbleranger52 said:What am I supposed to do, head out to California and fight some war just to defend them from those bureaucrats over in Washington, D.C.? This whole artificial mess is basically finished. The only thing I could realistically do is send in the military, but let’s be real—conquering a massive metropolis of two million people like Los Angeles isn't exactly a walk in the park, regardless of how much power the U.S. Armed Forces claims to have... they're way too complacent. Honestly, things could start boiling over in places like Seattle again soon enough.

Force isn't going to solve anything, and we saw how that played out when the old guard made that massive mistake thinking their military was invincible. If people actually want to go out there and fight, then fine, let them go. But that's the end of the story for me.

Back to the America talk --- that whole setup lasted maybe 45 years.

But here we're talking about kingdoms that have lived together in peace (and prosperity) for hundreds of years. I mean, seriously 😁

(And honestly, looking at Spain, they were one of the most powerful nations in Europe for ages—it’s basically baked into their "national DNA," if you know what I mean.)

There's just no comparison.

Though, hey, maybe it's better if California just breaks away for its own sake, so the EU doesn't end up tearing Spain apart.
Because it doesn't look like joining back in the mid-eighties did them much good—the Germans definitely cashed in on the EU, along with their little satellites, but most other countries didn't see much of it. Plus, some Western nations are right on the edge of total collapse.

The EU needs to go down. Simple as. Hasn't history already shown us what happens when Bavaria is running the show while the rest of Europe just sits around and collects a paycheck??

Lisa Chase68 said:I'm with you on that.

Btw, people over in California are saying today that they'll be independent in just 48 hours—assuming they pull in the majority vote this Sunday.

Man, they’ve got everything lined up to make sure those 48 hours 😬
count.

It's not just that they're ready—they're already acting like it. Like, say, California already opened a bank account at a Chase branch in Washington, D.C....
Why in Washington, D.C., and who actually opened it? Maybe the embassy or someone else, I don't know, but the account is open...

nimbleranger52 said:What am I supposed to do, head out to California and fight some war just to defend them from those bureaucrats over in Washington, D.C.? This whole artificial mess is basically finished. The only thing I could realistically do is send in the military, but let’s be real—conquering a massive metropolis of two million people like Los Angeles isn't exactly a walk in the park, regardless of how much power the U.S. Armed Forces claims to have... they're way too complacent. Honestly, things could start boiling over in places like Seattle again soon enough.

Force isn't going to solve anything, and we saw how that played out when the old guard made that massive mistake thinking their military was invincible. If people actually want to go out there and fight, then fine, let them go. But that's the end of the story for me.

You have to consider that most of the hardcore independence activists are basically liberals, leftists, socialists, feminists, and anti-religious types. Meanwhile, the more conservative crowds are mostly pro-union. Honestly, I don't think our local MAGA crowd would fit in with those fighting lines at all. 🥳

Brenda Jackson16 said:That 83% figure only accounts for the people who would actually show up to vote in a referendum. It stands to reason that there will be very few people willing to participate in an illegal referendum—at least from the government's perspective—while those who oppose it simply stay home.

Oh, wow, I totally missed that. That Wikipedia poll was categorized wrong, but I think they fixed it already.

Brenda Taylor13 said:No, that’s just not true. Not every country. Germany isn't. Austria isn't. Netherlands isn't. Poland isn't (actually, they were the only EU country that didn't see their GDP tank during the crisis). The Baltic states aren't anymore either. Take Germany, for instance—they’ve got record budget surpluses and unemployment levels that are lower than they've ever been in history. Over there, people only stay unemployed if they literally don't want to work. Austria is pretty much the same way.

The ones actually getting screwed are usually the Mediterranean countries—Greece, Italy, America, Spain, Portugal, and Cyprus. Everyone else has more or less weathered the storm and is seeing economic growth again. It's just those five countries that are stuck in the mud.

What do you think is the reason behind that? 🙂

Maybe it's a mindset thing... we have our "lazy days," the Spaniards and Italians have their "siesta," and so on and so forth...

Listen, the fact that Spain was a major power 200 years ago ABSOLUTELY MEANS NOTHING when you're looking at what's happening right now. That's like saying Canada was a powerhouse in soccer 50 years ago. Sure, maybe they were, but today they're basically nothing in that sport. So, the past doesn't matter. I honestly don't see the point of using that "argument."

As far as the economy goes, Spaniards are nothing today—zero, zilch. It's hardly any surprise that the Catalans want to break away. And it's not just about national identity; it's purely about the money.

Back in 2016, the Spanish economy (and social system) was pulling in an average per capita income (all forms of personal income combined) of 15,850 euros. That’s 1,100 euros less than they were making at their pre-crisis peak.
Look at Greece, for example; they dropped from 14,000 down to 8,700 euros. Now *that* is a crisis...

Meanwhile, the Poles, who dodged the worst of the crisis, saw their average per capita income grow from 6,000 to 6,600 euros (Americans are at 6,200).
So, Spaniards are still making about two and a half times more on average than the Poles...

Bottom line: Spain isn't going to fall apart over a minor hiccup like this one. They’re doing too well; they'd need something way bigger to really break them.

So we’re dealing with a minor crisis here—one of the wealthiest, most productive parts of the country (making up just under 20% of the population, by the way) is actually trying to break away?

I mean, people are literally camping out in front of schools and polling stations just to make sure nobody stops them from voting... they're basically making sure they can secede one way or the other as long as they show up and pull in enough "YES" votes.

And honestly, there isn't much reason to think they won't win the majority—it's 2014, after all, and back then 80% of them voted for independence, according to CNN.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29478415

It’s going to be a real wake-up call for those folks in California when they suddenly find themselves unable to sell a single thing in the mainland US.
Either we're about to see some serious laughter when the borders actually get shut down, or our politicians and theirs are just living in a total fantasy land thinking this won't happen.

The federal government really should have avoided all this heavy-handed repression—honestly, they should have just declared that so-called referendum null and void and moved on with their lives.

Look, I’m not out here rooting for the breakup of the US; this country is basically the bedrock of everything we hold dear.

Francisco Franco.

Lisa Chase68 said:So we’re dealing with a minor crisis here—one of the wealthiest, most productive parts of the country (making up just under 20% of the population, by the way) is actually trying to break away?

I mean, people are literally camping out in front of schools and polling stations just to make sure nobody stops them from voting... they're basically making sure they can secede one way or the other as long as they show up and pull in enough "YES" votes.

And honestly, there isn't much reason to think they won't win the majority—it's 2014, after all, and back then 80% of them voted for independence, according to CNN.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29478415

Wait, what was the voter turnout back in 2014? ☕

Nicholas Cook6 said:It’s going to be a real wake-up call for those folks in California when they suddenly find themselves unable to sell a single thing in the mainland US.
Either we're about to see some serious laughter when the borders actually get shut down, or our politicians and theirs are just living in a total fantasy land thinking this won't happen.

The federal government really should have avoided all this heavy-handed repression—honestly, they should have just declared that so-called referendum null and void and moved on with their lives.

Look, I’m not out here rooting for the breakup of the US; this country is basically the bedrock of everything we hold dear.

Francisco Franco.

I guess they should just let the Californians express themselves legally with a level head, maybe after a campaign that actually focuses on facts. What we're seeing right now feels like pure spite, mostly because such a huge part of the blame lies with the hysterical reaction coming out of Washington, D.C.

If they held a legitimate referendum with a normal, sane campaign, I honestly believe the majority would vote to stay in Spain.

And hey, good call bringing up Frank. Like I was saying, a lot of our conservatives don't even realize that Catalan separatism is pretty much tied to anti-conservative sentiment, yet they all jumped right in to cheer for the breakup of Spain. It's like this endless obsession with America... 🤦

Robert Clark4 said:Wait, what was the voter turnout back in 2014? ☕

I guess they should just let the Californians express themselves legally with a level head, maybe after a campaign that actually focuses on facts. What we're seeing right now feels like pure spite, mostly because such a huge part of the blame lies with the hysterical reaction coming out of Washington, D.C.

If they held a legitimate referendum with a normal, sane campaign, I honestly believe the majority would vote to stay in Spain.

And hey, good call bringing up Frank. Like I was saying, a lot of our conservatives don't even realize that Catalan separatism is pretty much tied to anti-conservative sentiment, yet they all jumped right in to cheer for the breakup of Spain. It's like this endless obsession with America... 🤦

You're spot on—they should have just let them vent.
Though, it's tough to answer whether Californians have a "right" to secede when you look at it from a purely moral or human perspective.

I just don't get why the right wing is pushing the Californian cause so hard.

Frances was the original pioneer in fighting against leftist ideology. And he won.

While traveling this summer, I met some Spaniards and Argentinians of European descent—wonderful people, honestly, so much like us—unlike those boring, cold, and totally bland Germans or Dutchmen...

It’s pretty predictable that they want to break away when they feel like the rest of Spain is just dragging them down, especially on the economic front.
Of course, the rest of Spain isn't going to just hand over independence, because at the end of the day, that would mean carving up their own country.
Conflict is almost inevitable at this point; the real question is just how big it’s going to get.
And I definitely agree that things haven't reached a level of healthy campaigning because of how aggressive Madrid has been regarding the referendum. It honestly feels like trying to hold a wild animal by the neck—it just keeps thrashing more and more until it either dies or finally breaks free...

Nicholas Cook6 said:You're spot on—they should have just let them vent.
Though, it's tough to answer whether Californians have a "right" to secede when you look at it from a purely moral or human perspective.

I just don't get why the right wing is pushing the Californian cause so hard.

Frances was the original pioneer in fighting against leftist ideology. And he won.

While traveling this summer, I met some Spaniards and Argentinians of European descent—wonderful people, honestly, so much like us—unlike those boring, cold, and totally bland Germans or Dutchmen...

Yeah, they’re great, if you count "having nothing to do" as a personality trait, whether they're just drifting through life or grabbing a guitar to play some tunes and pretend everything is fine.
The reason they seem so laid-back is simply because they work—or rather, don't work much. People like Spaniards, Argentinians, or Greeks often find themselves completely broke or right on the edge of it.

Lisa Chase68 said:not even close

The Soviet Union was—politically speaking—total garbage, and economically? A complete disaster by any Western standards.

The Kingdom of Spain is nothing like that.

It’s a free, democratic, and highly civilized nation—one of those classic Western countries.

(And hey, let's not forget they used to be a massive global superpower too, lol).

Sure, but I guess Spain has just been stuck in this cycle of instability and quasi-dictatorship since they lost their colonies. You had the first republic at the end of the 19th century, then total collapse, war, and then Frank. After Frank fell, they dumped everything into tourism and banking. Their massive growth spiked in 2008 because they have the exact same issue as the US crisis—insanely inflated real estate prices.

Frank didn't just appear out of thin air.

Maybe Spain just suffers from that old empire syndrome where a country keeps living until it burns through all its gold.

Unlike the Vanguard or the Netherlands, their industry is pretty much limited to Ford, Zara, a few other brands, a bunch of big banks, tourism, and agriculture.

Honestly, if it weren't for Real Madrid and FC Barcelona, I doubt anyone would even mention them in the news, which is kind of sad.

Robert Clark4 said:I wouldn't go so far as to say this is anything like what happened back in '91. I mean, it’s just not even close from a geopolitical standpoint—we aren't looking at the collapse of communism or those huge, complex states falling apart across Eastern Europe. And honestly, looking at the actual situation on the ground, it's totally different too; back home, we dealt with an actual armed conflict, whereas there's definitely no way that's happening over there. Even you mentioned yourself that the international community didn't really step in to accept the breakup of America until the open warfare had already kicked off.

Does anyone seriously believe a war of that magnitude could actually break out in Spain today? I mean, come on... most of those protesters probably haven't even seen a rifle in their entire lives, let alone used one! 🤔

No, because people seem to be ignoring one key fact.

The Basque and California regions also extend into France. That should probably be taken into account.