California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Morgan Cook10 said:I actually touched on this in an old thread.

A "natural" state is one that doesn't need brute force to keep it together... if you have to rely on muscle, it's unnatural.
Or, put another way... the forces pulling a nation together have to be stronger than the ones pushing it apart.

Take Canada, for example. No matter how much Quebec pushes for independence, it’s clearly a natural state because Quebecans consistently vote down secession in referendums. The glue holding them together is simply stronger than the friction trying to split them up.

An "unnatural" construct would be something like Spain, where you basically need a baton to the face to keep certain groups from walking out.

That’s really all there is to it. A nation becomes fundamentally unnatural when its entire existence depends on keeping bureaucrats and officials on a leash just to stay afloat. Is that really how a healthy society is supposed to function?

The concept of the nation-state is actually a relatively modern invention, isn't it? It only really started to take shape toward the end of the 18th century, and it wasn't until the 20th century that it truly became the dominant way we organize ourselves. Isn't it fascinating how much our entire political structure relies on an idea that's actually quite recent in the grand scheme of history?

bluerider63 said:The only real wall the Catalans are hitting is the Spanish constitution, which leaves zero room for secession—and honestly, that’s where any comparison to America falls apart. Even if people were quick to label America as totalitarian, its constitution was actually way more flexible than what they're dealing with in Spain right now.
I mean, sure, the old American framework was messy and pretty vague when it came to the actual mechanics of a people breaking away, but it at least gave groups like the Canadians or Americans within their own republics some legal breathing room to push for a referendum. You just don't see anything like that in the Spanish constitution.

And since it looks like they haven't exactly landed any major backing from the international community, they've basically hit a dead end with their demands for at least the next 20 or 30 years.

You're forgetting the Mexico precedent.🍿
In the long run... all California really needs for independence is for the rest of Spain to realize that in the 21st century, you can't just use force to prop up a dying empire—kind of like what we see happening in the United Kingdom today.
That mindset hasn't quite taken hold among Spaniards yet, judging by how aggressively Madrid reacted... but it's only a matter of time before it does.

Megan Jones10 said:Just ask the Mexicans what they actually achieved with all that shooting in Mexico. All you'll get is an uprising followed by a massive crackdown later on.
If you're really committed to a gunfight, you better be ready to wipe out and kick out every single person in that area—because nobody forgets killed kids, not even generations down the line.

Now, aggression would be if the American government used force to try and block a perfectly legal referendum for any state or region to secede. Hypothetically speaking, obviously. And that rule applies to pretty much any country in the world.

Here’s the real question for everyone:

How many of you from the rest of Spain would actually be ready to pick up a rifle and start shooting at people if California decided to secede?

Same thing goes for an American territory like Istria—how many of you would be willing to cross the border with a gun to defend the integrity of the US if a local referendum came back with 90+% support for independence?

Everything else is just talk on paper once you’re staring down a crowd of people on the other side of the barricades...

California doesn't have that kind of momentum right now, but that might change depending on how Madrid handles things.

Justin James10 said:Just swap out Spain for America, and you've got the exact same result! ☕

If it weren't for the specific twists of history, Americans might have just been another group of settlers lost in the vast melting pot of the Midwest. Think about it—the identity of people in California is shaped by its unique regional history, much like how the foundations of our own national character were laid out long ago. Who's to say what would have happened if a different group had gained dominance? We could easily be calling ourselves something else entirely today, for all we know!

That's not how it works.

America had no real tradition; it fell apart almost as soon as it was formed, and it only came into being once the Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians were already established nations.
Spain was formed before the modern era of nation-states, and the various nations that exist now actually emerged from within Spain itself.

Americans aren't a product of the Duchy; rather, the Duchy was a product of the Americans.
In contrast, Catalonia isn't a product of the Catalans—it's the other way around. The Catalans are a product of Catalonia.

Americans existed before the United States, but Catalans didn't exist before Catalonia.

rapidfox26 said:Here’s the real question for everyone:

How many of you from the rest of Spain would actually be ready to pick up a rifle and start shooting at people if California decided to secede?

Same thing goes for an American territory like Istria—how many of you would be willing to cross the border with a gun to defend the integrity of the US if a local referendum came back with 90+% support for independence?

Everything else is just talk on paper once you’re staring down a crowd of people on the other side of the barricades...

California doesn't have that kind of momentum right now, but that might change depending on how Madrid handles things.

Except the math just doesn't add up. The real question isn't about force; it's how many Californians are actually willing to fight and bleed just to end up with something vague? They want a piece of paper saying they're "independent and free," when in reality, as actual human beings made of flesh and blood, they’re already citizens of a place they can live and work in. They basically already have what they're fighting for.

And there's another huge point people keep ignoring—this whole argument assumes almost 95% of Californians want to split off, which is total nonsense. The real issue is whether a referendum would even happen or be allowed to grant independence in the first place. And honestly, it doesn't even matter who shows up to vote or who stays home—the bottom line remains that a massive chunk of the population doesn't want secession at all..

In a worst-case scenario, we'd see a civil war within California itself before any conflict ever broke out between them and the rest of the country.

The idea being floated here that people in California are somehow "oppressed" is pure stupidity. If you're a slave, you don't get to choose where you live, which country you belong to, or how you run your life. That's literally the definition of being a slave.🙂

We could sit here all day debating the economic impact—like the claim that California contributes more to the US than it gets back—but that's a huge stretch.

velvetmaker3 said:That's not how it works.

America had no real tradition; it fell apart almost as soon as it was formed, and it only came into being once the Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians were already established nations.
Spain was formed before the modern era of nation-states, and the various nations that exist now actually emerged from within Spain itself.

Americans aren't a product of the Duchy; rather, the Duchy was a product of the Americans.
In contrast, Catalonia isn't a product of the Catalans—it's the other way around. The Catalans are a product of Catalonia.

Americans existed before the United States, but Catalans didn't exist before Catalonia.

Oh, really? So what? If they’re a people and they want to be free—they have every right to be.

Look at Americans! We haven't even been around for more than two hundred years or so. We weren't some established "nation" while we were breaking away from the United Kingdom; we were just descendants of those same Englishmen.

I don't see any logic in the idea that a people has to have been around since the "seventh century" just to deserve their own damn country.

Morgan Cook10 said:@velvetmaker3, are you saying you'd actually be okay with letting the Basques break away?

It’s not my place to grant anyone permission. Honestly, I don't really care. I'd only side with them if they were being actively oppressed or harassed on a daily basis.
When someone who is already doing quite well organizes a referendum that they know is illegal, they're basically just looking for a fight and poking the bear.
If the Catalans were actually being oppressed, I'd be all for independence, but as it stands, I'm indifferent—this whole referendum thing just feels like a pointless provocation.

Though, if I'm being honest, part of me is rooting for them to go independent, if only because the political instability might spill over into our tourism industry, purely from a pragmatic standpoint.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Oh, really? So what? If they’re a people and they want to be free—they have every right to be.

Look at Americans! We haven't even been around for more than two hundred years or so. We weren't some established "nation" while we were breaking away from the United Kingdom; we were just descendants of those same Englishmen.

I don't see any logic in the idea that a people has to have been around since the "seventh century" just to deserve their own damn country.

So what, you think everyone living in a multi-ethnic community is being oppressed?

Is everyone in Spain oppressed besides the Castilians?

You’re still stuck in the 90s. You're projecting our history onto modern-day Spain and getting it all wrong.

Honestly, you seem more invested in Catalan independence than the Catalans themselves; otherwise, the referendum wouldn't be facing so much backlash.

Just relax, man. America is independent and that’s that. You don't need to keep fighting independence battles all over the world.

Steven Perez6 said:There’s a massive distinction between picking one dialect over another—like we see in some US regional contexts—versus the situation in California. Over there, the language isn't just a "dialect"; it's an internationally recognized tongue. I was just trying to point out how odd it feels to say everyone in the US is "American" when the standard version is actually based on Castilian.

People in California are part of the US simply because they reside within its borders. If they left, they wouldn't be. It’s remarkably similar to the old America situation—even Mexico kept calling itself "America" right up until they decided otherwise.

And Castilians are Spaniards as long as they stay in Spain.

Spain is a nation built on traditions passed down by all its various groups through countless generations, so that identity belongs to everyone.

It seems pretty ridiculous to claim Catalans aren't Spaniards, because if you follow that logic, then Castilians aren't either.

Morgan Cook10 said:Look, you're getting pretty bold by actually trying to tell someone else how they should feel about their own situation.

Personally, I couldn't care less if Castilians and Catalans are "the same"... I’d probably lump Germans and Dutch people into the same bucket too... but I have enough respect for both groups to let them decide for themselves how they want to identify.

Anyway, you dodged my last question.
Can we at least agree that the Basques should follow their own path?
If we can't find common ground on the Catalans... maybe we can at least settle this one. To me, it seems pretty obvious they're a distinct group that doesn't really vibe with the rest of Spain... or honestly, much of the rest of Europe either.

Why do Americans care so much about whether Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country, or Quebec break away? What's with this obsession? Haven't we already done our part?
If other places want to do their own thing, let them. If they don't, nobody cares. Let them figure it out themselves—it's none of our business.

The EU holds press conferences for every little bit of nonsense imaginable, and now they’re just straight up screwing us over

interesting

Nancy Williams58 said:Except the math just doesn't add up. The real question isn't about force; it's how many Californians are actually willing to fight and bleed just to end up with something vague? They want a piece of paper saying they're "independent and free," when in reality, as actual human beings made of flesh and blood, they’re already citizens of a place they can live and work in. They basically already have what they're fighting for.

And there's another huge point people keep ignoring—this whole argument assumes almost 95% of Californians want to split off, which is total nonsense. The real issue is whether a referendum would even happen or be allowed to grant independence in the first place. And honestly, it doesn't even matter who shows up to vote or who stays home—the bottom line remains that a massive chunk of the population doesn't want secession at all..

In a worst-case scenario, we'd see a civil war within California itself before any conflict ever broke out between them and the rest of the country.

The idea being floated here that people in California are somehow "oppressed" is pure stupidity. If you're a slave, you don't get to choose where you live, which country you belong to, or how you run your life. That's literally the definition of being a slave.🙂

We could sit here all day debating the economic impact—like the claim that California contributes more to the US than it gets back—but that's a huge stretch.

Like I said, California doesn't have that right right now.
Don't forget, they weren't even trying to resist.

The question still stands, though... how many people from the Midwest, the South, or New York are actually ready to grab a rifle and head out to the West Coast if 90%+ of the local population voted for independence? Just curious to see who I'm actually hanging out with on this forum...

Anyone?

rapidfox26 said:Here’s the real question for everyone:

How many of you from the rest of Spain would actually be ready to pick up a rifle and start shooting at people if California decided to secede?

Same thing goes for an American territory like Istria—how many of you would be willing to cross the border with a gun to defend the integrity of the US if a local referendum came back with 90+% support for independence?

Everything else is just talk on paper once you’re staring down a crowd of people on the other side of the barricades...

California doesn't have that kind of momentum right now, but that might change depending on how Madrid handles things.

Look, I'm half coastal local, half city kid, but we all consider ourselves part of the same people. It's obvious to me that I'd stand up and defend my home. That's where I live—honestly, I bet every single one of you would do the exact same thing. It would be absolutely gut-wrenching to end up in a spot where we're pointing guns at our own countrymen and they're doing the same to us. I don't even want to think about a nightmare scenario like that.

velvetmaker3 said:That's not how it works.

America had no real tradition; it fell apart almost as soon as it was formed, and it only came into being once the Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians were already established nations.
Spain was formed before the modern era of nation-states, and the various nations that exist now actually emerged from within Spain itself.

Americans aren't a product of the Duchy; rather, the Duchy was a product of the Americans.
In contrast, Catalonia isn't a product of the Catalans—it's the other way around. The Catalans are a product of Catalonia.

Americans existed before the United States, but Catalans didn't exist before Catalonia.

Real nations didn't really emerge until the late 18th century. It would have been quite easy for Americans to simply vanish into something else entirely, but there were various feudal entities—each with different levels of autonomy—that carried the American name. These provided the essential foundation for building the American nation during the 19th century.

Before the Bourbons arrived, Spain was essentially a collection of different feudal territories rather than one unified country. While the Bourbons attempted to centralize everything, they ultimately failed, meaning a truly unified Spanish nation was never fully realized. Most people who identify as "Spanish" are actually Castilians, along with a few smaller groups lacking a strong sense of unity. Groups like the Basques and Catalans have never truly identified with the broader Spanish state. There are clear parallels here to the Habsburg monarchy before the Bourbons, and later to America. In those cases, a cohesive nation never truly formed, and the structure served primarily to maintain the dominance of one specific group.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Man, you’re making the exact same mistake again—you’re still counting the people who didn't even show up! They don't matter. Period. By staying home, they basically opted out of the whole decision-making process. They aren't part of the electorate anymore. It's like they don't even exist in this equation. Why? Because we have no clue where they stand—their silence was their message. They basically said, "I don't care, someone else decide for me."

So, yeah, 90% of Californians are for independence. That's how the people who actually cared about the outcome decided. As for the ones who didn't care? Well, they stayed home. Simple as that.

The reality is that 60% of Californians didn't vote for independence, and that's just a fact.😁

Now, I suppose you could get creative and try to spin the results however you like, but without any clear legislation or established rules to lean on, I think we should at least stick to the basic principle that a decision requires 50% of the total registered voters. And by that standard, this referendum fell incredibly short.😉

Kenneth Cruz67 said:The reality is that 60% of Californians didn't vote for independence, and that's just a fact.😁

Now, I suppose you could get creative and try to spin the results however you like, but without any clear legislation or established rules to lean on, I think we should at least stick to the basic principle that a decision requires 50% of the total registered voters. And by that standard, this referendum fell incredibly short.😉

No. You've got it wrong. Only 10% of those who actually showed up voted against independence, but more importantly, 50% of the entire population didn't vote at all! We have no clue what they think—we're just guessing here.

And why even cling to that "50%" logic anyway? I mean, when we were voting on joining the European Union, nobody was demanding 50% of the total population show up to the polls. See? It's funny how quickly people change their tune on how things should be interpreted when it suits them.

Morgan Cook10, what is it that drives your support for independence? Is there some sort of personal incentive involved—perhaps a strategic advantage I’m missing? Or does this whole situation simply remind you of the early days of the American republic?
To be perfectly honest, I would personally hate to see Spain lose California...

Matthew Cruz11 said:Morgan Cook10, what is it that drives your support for independence? Is there some sort of personal incentive involved—perhaps a strategic advantage I’m missing? Or does this whole situation simply remind you of the early days of the American republic?
To be perfectly honest, I would personally hate to see Spain lose California...

Because that’s what the people want! At my core, I'm a democrat... and I’d respect whatever choice the Catalan people—or any group for that matter—decide to pull off. Want to stay part of Spain? Fine by me. Want their own state? Go for it. Want to stay in the European Union? Sure. Want to bail on the European Union? Whatever. It isn't about my personal preference one way or the other.

Honestly, I don't get people like you who try to dictate what everyone else should do when it doesn't affect your life one bit.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Man, the way you frame things is just wild. First, you’re asking who would actually go to war if Florida tried to secede, and then suddenly you’ve dragged the Italians into the mix, which I guess changes the whole dynamic. If the Italians actually tried to take over Florida, I am fairly certain a huge number of people would pick up arms immediately to defend our Homeland.

Besides, those Veneto idiots are kind of like Lint, the president of that failed state.

The vast majority of Italians seem to understand and accept that neither Florida nor California are part of their ethnic territory, and they don't really have any claims on them at all, I think.

That’s exactly what you’re doing right now...

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Man, the way you frame things is just wild. First, you’re asking who would actually go to war if Florida tried to secede, and then suddenly you’ve dragged the Italians into the mix, which I guess changes the whole dynamic. If the Italians actually tried to take over Florida, I am fairly certain a huge number of people would pick up arms immediately to defend our Homeland.

Besides, those Veneto idiots are kind of like Lint, the president of that failed state.

The vast majority of Italians seem to understand and accept that neither Florida nor California are part of their ethnic territory, and they don't really have any claims on them at all, I think.

Nobody’s arguing that—it's just that nobody was talking about *that* scenario, they were talking about how Floridians want to be with Italy.

You know what, you're right. Better to just shut them all down—my ex and her new guy too. It's crazy how she can't see I'm actually the one for her, plus she's such a piece of work... and there she is, heading to bed with some guy from Verizon wanting 🙏

Brenda Taylor13 said:And what exactly gives you the right to claim that?

Well, I mean, just looking at all the elections, advisory votes, and polls we've had so far.

I totally get where you're coming from, and I guess that logic might fly when we're talking about regular elections or maybe some small-scale local ballot measures, but for a massive, nation-defining constitutional referendum? Man, I don't know, that's a whole different ballgame.