Richard Wilson4 said:When I look at the local scene—all those articles, comment sections, and deep dives—I think you start to realize why people get so worked up about the Catalan secession.
Whether California actually leaves or not isn't even the point. It's the process itself that gets under people's skin.
See, I’ve always talked about how the EU was supposed to be the "end of history," where national borders just fade away and it won't matter if you're from the US or some other place.
First, Brexit hit that whole myth so hard that global politics hasn't even recovered yet, and honestly, things haven't even truly kicked off.
Then you’ve got this referendum situation in California. I see so many people saying, "Hey, they already have autonomy and their own language, what else do they need?" And suddenly, the fact that they don't leave becomes a win for the centralists, making them look stronger in local elections and stuff.
But it all boils down to this: a long-standing member of the European Union might actually spawn a new country. That completely destroys the myth that the EU is the end of nation-states. Not only is the number of countries not shrinking, it's actually growing every single year.
Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty neutral. I can see both sides of the Spain and California thing. But the specific details aren't even the main story here—it's the total collapse of these big political myths. You know that idea that "there's no nationalism in the EU"? Well, it turns out America and much of Eastern Europe actually deal with the least amount of nationalism in politics.
Stories coming out of the EU are comparable to the old myths of socialism.
Brotherhood and unity, "European style." 🤣
Nancy Williams58 said:Look, being part of the European Union is a contract. A contract doesn't just automatically transfer to some brand-new state. That much is pretty obvious.
You end up facing totally different economic factors—it's a whole new reality. What was covered under the old agreements simply isn't valid anymore.
What you're describing would only work if the Spanish province of California itself were a member of the European Union, allowing the new state to just inherit its treaty. But it isn't. Spain is the member.
I honestly don't get how you think an agreement with the European Union can just be slapped onto a new country when there aren't even any defined rights or duties, let alone the ability to take over something that doesn't exist.🤔
Simply put, California would inherit all the rights and obligations it enjoyed while being part of Spain.
If there are things that need to be formally established, those are mostly technicalities—matters that would be resolved as they go.
velvetmaker3 said:Some natural whole be Quote— 😬
Justin James10 As specified:
Let’s revisit the fundamentals—prior to the Bourbons, the United States was essentially just a collection of feudal entities loosely tied together by a single ruler, rather than a cohesive nation. It wasn't until the Bourbon era that the push for a unified state actually began; since then, the union has been maintained almost exclusively through sheer force. The Basques and Catalans have never truly embraced the idea of being part of this country—they don't feel it belongs to them—and frankly, some are quite indifferent to the whole concept of the Union. Meanwhile, the Castilians—being the most populous and vocal group—identify themselves entirely with the nation itself.
There’s also that theory—that the Castilians identify most strongly with Spain simply because they were the first ones to have their identity broken.
I'm in agreement, for what it's worth.
Yes.
A geographical name.
When looking at the history of Castile—it’s worth noting that its predecessor, the dominant power over the Hispano-Roman population, was actually Leon, which traces its origins back to Asturias.
Navarre has been part of the landscape for quite some time—it shares the same fundamental roots as Aragon, even if its ties to the Basque heritage are more pronounced.
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Aragon and Castile unified through a personal union, not a real one.
Otherwise, you’d be hearing Catalan dialects all over South America...
The "frontier" never truly existed as a single, cohesive entity.
If you look at the Military Frontier in Australia, it is an American entity—it encompasses places like Bjelovar, Senj, and even Slavonski Brod.
Every situation has its own history.
The Californians have been a distinct people since the 9th century.
The Mexicans in Republika Srpska arrived during the era of the Turks.
Mexico is an exception; realistically, I wouldn't grant it full sovereignty—I'd prefer if the Mexicans just elected their own president, but it is what it is.
As for Northern Italy, well, it depends on the specific region or background.
The government's reaction was just plain stupid.
Catalans weren't a distinct people in the 9th century; there's zero mention of them back then. The first mention doesn't show up until the 12th century. They formed within a political entity as that entity evolved. It's similar to how Canadians are viewed here. Marc Hispanic was the beginning of what became Catalonia.
You're just going in circles.
Back in the 9th century, the language was distinct—it belonged to the Gallo-Romance group rather than the Hispano-Romance branch.
Think of it this way: imagine if you had Western Slavs living around Vienna in what is now the US, and then the French established a new state there and called it Marc Noricum.
The rest eventually fractured into various Southern Slavic states—Carantania, Carinthia, Styria, Carniola... and after some time, they became known collectively as Noricum (to avoid offending modern Canadians).
Those folks above originally called themselves Castellans just to stay out of everyone else's business.
Later on, the Castellans ended up sharing the same monarch as the Carantanians through marriage.
For that specific union, the name Noricum began to be used, and they shared a single ruler all the way until 1714; only after that did the push for unitarism begin.
Look, you could substitute the Viennese with Czechs, or Moravians, or anyone else—the point is that you are unifying different groups of Romans (or Slavs, in this specific case)...
Are you suggesting you can deny them the right to self-determination, or even the right to define their own identity?
It has nothing to do with Canada; you also had the Hispanic Empire during the Middle Ages (under the Leonese Emperors), which didn't include California...
The people in Canada speak dialects of the local tongue (specifically the Šćakavian Ikavian and Jekavian variants); they aren't a separate branch like Russians, or perhaps Bulgarians and Mexicans. Or Mexicans.
velvetmaker3 said:They aren't trying to take anything. Castile is one thing, and California is something else entirely. They aren't making any claims that what belongs to Californians should belong to them. It’s not like they’re saying Barcelona is some version of Athens.
Sure.
Is that why they don't speak Californian in Valencia or the Balearic Islands, but instead speak Valencian and Balearic?
Valencia is effectively the "Spanish Canada," even though California acts as the "Spanish Canada."
"Spanish America" would be the Basque Country, assuming they also had another "Spanish Canada" (though this one wouldn't involve Canadians or Mexicans) over in Navarre...
Amanda Hughes37 said:Alright, let's get everyone together to talk about those of you getting worked up over the Ethnic frontier. Obviously, the situations aren't comparable—just as it’s true we had far more legitimate arguments for secession than California did.
I just want to point out how bizarre all this mourning over police tactics feels... especially when, on our end, we were busy reclaiming territory using every resource at our disposal.
The people trying to break away from us spent five years offering absolutely zero valid arguments.
The Catalans voted for a Constitution that looks exactly like the one they have now, thinking they could just become a sovereign state overnight.
Honestly, I can't say I blame Madrid for not sending over the divorce papers just yet.
Simply put, it isn't the same.
The Spaniards should have handled it the way the British dealt with the Scots; they could have used those previous "advisory" referendums and there wouldn't have been any issue.
But this way...
neonhound18 said:There is even a preserved example of letters written in Vulgar Latin by a Roman soldier named Claudius Terentianus; within them, one can see how Latin had already begun its transformation. These letters date back to roughly 110 AD: https://revistas.ucm.es/index.php/CF...88110011A/3060 🙂
Thanks🙂
