CheckEmoji Community · the emoji forum
🏠 Home 🆕 What's new ❓ Unanswered 🔥 Popular 📡 RSS Members 👥 0 online log in · register
Home › Society › Politics › European Union › California Discussion Thread - All in one place

California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Started by Richard Wilson4 · · 👁 86 views · 1.9K replies

📡 Subscribe to replies

Participants Richard Wilson4Carl Bennett4Zachary Stewart2Justin Patel8Tyler Jackson6Nancy Wood6neonfalcon16James Nguyen13Carol Castillo26Jamie Nelson90Ashley Brown3Jose Martin13Scott Edwards2Arthur Fowler83Rachel Carter90Betty Ross6bluerider63Larry Walker24Drew Brooks8Morgan Brown4casualorca30jadeorca42Rebecca WatsonMatthew Rodriguez9 …
Kenneth Cruz67 Kenneth Cruz67 Regular
376 messages
joined Oct 2017
#1301 ·
Justin James10 said:Dejan Jović makes a similar argument regarding the American referendum, 😉 and honestly, isn't the similarity between those opposing the California referendum and those opposing the American one just absolutely striking?

The thing is, I feel like both the statistics and the actual events tend to contradict what Jović is saying here. If only 40% of the total American electorate had actually supported independence, then, I imagine, we would have seen massive aggression or even a full-blown civil war where Americans were fighting Americans. But instead, it turned out to be quite the opposite—we saw widespread mobilization and a real sense of national unity.
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#1302 ·
Justin James10 said:Dejan Jović makes a similar argument regarding the American referendum, 😉 and honestly, isn't the similarity between those opposing the California referendum and those opposing the American one just absolutely striking?

Look, nobody is actually saying they're "against" the referendum, for crying out loud... you're constantly projecting these arguments onto people that nobody even voiced or wrote down.
We're just having a conversation here, trying to ground this stuff in reality, while you're off daydreaming about militias in Spain and completely ignoring the actual facts on the table.
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 VeteranOP
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#1303 ·
Kevin Cruz86 said:The people who wanted to vote turned out. Those who didn't stayed home. That's on them, not the police. Three years ago, during that advisory referendum, turnout was around 40% too, even though the police didn't intervene back then. The reality—which many people refuse to face—is that perhaps half of California's population doesn't even want independence.
Furthermore, the media is painting a skewed picture here. Based on how they reported it and what they broadcasted on TV, you could get the impression that all of New York City was in total chaos on Sunday, when in reality, the unrest was limited to specific pockets; the center and most of the city remained perfectly calm.

So how are we supposed to figure out how many people actually got blocked from voting?
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#1304 ·
Richard Wilson4 said:So how are we supposed to figure out how many people actually got blocked from voting?

There’s no way to know. You’d need to hold an actual, legitimate referendum to get those numbers.
Even if you look at the claim that all the pro-independence parties combined didn't even hit the 50% mark—which isn't some smoking gun proof of anything, let's be real, but it definitely points to some deeper issues...
Nancy Williams58 Nancy Williams58 Active Member
88 messages
joined Apr 2023
#1305 ·
Michael Ramirez11 said:I don't really get the European Union's stance on this. If a nation decides to break away from its parent state, why should they automatically lose their EU membership? I suppose existing treaties could just stay in effect while the new state negotiates a fresh set of terms. As for California, I’m no historian, so I couldn't say. I don't know what the Californians want, or what the Walloons want, etc., etc. But if there is some desire for change, maybe they could just sit down and talk it out like adults within those borders. It seems like the Spanish authorities have completely missed the mark here.
I realize that allowing this outside the European Union framework would be like opening Pandora's box.
Still, I wonder what the actual issue is if a multi-ethnic state—one that is already part of the Schengen Area and the eurozone—were to "break up." You'd still have no borders, the same currency, and just one less federal government to deal with (which, I guess, is a plus). What was actually wrong with the breakup of Czechoslovakia? Why shouldn't every people group become an EU member as its own sovereign state? I don't see where the drama lies. The only real difference would be that tax revenue wouldn't be sent elsewhere, though everyone would still pay their individual EU dues.

It's problematic because their constitution only recognizes a "Spanish nation" with indivisible sovereignty, even if the people living there clearly don't feel that way. I suppose you can't force a sense of national identity through sheer strength; that just feels like oppression.

Legality and legitimacy are two very different things, I think.
Back when we had our old constitution, we had a right to self-determination, but we were attacked regardless, so legality didn't offer much protection. We even offered a confederation, but it was rejected, much like how the Californians offered a federation. In our case, we and the Slovaks had two votes, the Mexicans had four against us, and the other two stayed silent and effectively voted against us too. Outvoting someone doesn't seem like a solution.

It seems to me that the Californians might hold a status similar to what Texas held under the old system (though, obviously, you can't compare them directly since that wasn't a democracy, and the Slovaks were always recognized as a distinct people, whereas the Californians aren't fully acknowledged that way, despite having their language recognized, albeit not as a primary one). I don't know much about it.

All I know is that every rigid, unyielding state eventually falls apart.
For instance, if the old Franjo hadn't been so stubborn and had instead embraced national reforms, maybe Australia wouldn't have collapsed. Or if Ferdinand had been a bit more sensible in Boston. Who knows. I just know that history tends to repeat itself constantly😵 and nobody ever learns anything, not even from the examples right in front of them. Nothing is remembered, and everything just cycles back. People don't learn by watching someone else smash their head against a wall; they insist on doing it themselves.

I think that's the point of why we're all so worked up over here now—we see that they haven't learned a thing from our suffering, and that realization eats at us. Or maybe they have? It's Tuesday, and they haven't declared independence yet. No tanks have rolled into the streets. Maybe history won't repeat itself after all 😲... in the meantime, I guess we'll just let the tourists flood in...

It’s not that they "lose" it—it’s that it just doesn't exist for them anymore. How does a place become an EU member if it wasn't one to begin with? We're talking about a totally brand-new nation here. They'd have to sort out a million internal headaches first before they could even think about starting the whole accession process.

See, to join the European Union, every single member state has to give the green light, and in this scenario, that's a hard no.

Plus, looking at it strictly from a legal standpoint—this new state has zero treaty with the European Union. It doesn't exist. They'd actually have to sit down and sign one.

At the end of the day, being in the European Union is nothing more than a contract.

Makes sense to me.
Rachel Richardson Rachel Richardson Regular
662 messages
joined Jul 2017
#1306 ·
Brenda Taylor13 said:You’re out here tossing around the word "Frontier" like it’s some perfectly normal part of the US—it isn't! Seriously, that name never even existed in our history books, and no American would ever refer to a piece of our country by that label. I just don't get why you feel the need to call a region by a name that was basically invented by occupiers to claim territory. It’s not a legitimate historical designation like how people talk about California, and there’s no such thing as a "Frontier people" group, unlike how you have actual Catalan people. It just makes zero sense.

👍
"The Frontier" was never a real thing in America.
There was a military borderland—distinctly different boundaries—where Americans made up the majority.
What we saw was essentially occupied territory consisting of disconnected pockets where the minority group held less than half the population; even the major hubs had American majorities (think places like a small town in Ohio or Warsaw...).
How can anyone possibly equate the occupation of a state with a genuine struggle for independence?
Justin James10 Justin James10 Regular
440 messages
joined Oct 2017
#1307 ·
I have to agree—those folks in California can be incredibly indecisive and soft when it comes to making a stand. As for that comment about the National Guard, it was clearly just a joke.

Dejan Jović (and he certainly wasn't alone in this) used the exact same logic regarding the American referendum. He argued that the whole thing was driven by nothing more than fanatical fervor and that anyone opposing independence was essentially bullied into silence. Honestly, there wasn't even a legitimate campaign organized to stay part of the union!
Rachel Richardson Rachel Richardson Regular
662 messages
joined Jul 2017
#1308 ·
Nancy Williams58 said:It’s not that they "lose" it—it’s that it just doesn't exist for them anymore. How does a place become an EU member if it wasn't one to begin with? We're talking about a totally brand-new nation here. They'd have to sort out a million internal headaches first before they could even think about starting the whole accession process.

See, to join the European Union, every single member state has to give the green light, and in this scenario, that's a hard no.

Plus, looking at it strictly from a legal standpoint—this new state has zero treaty with the European Union. It doesn't exist. They'd actually have to sit down and sign one.

At the end of the day, being in the European Union is nothing more than a contract.

Makes sense to me.

I disagree.
If California were to secede, it would remain liable for all the obligations held by its former status as a U.S. state.
Would their debts and liabilities just vanish?
No.
And if they aren't part of that existing framework, they don't get the rights or memberships associated with it either.
Taylor Walker9 Taylor Walker9 Member
25 messages
joined Sep 2017
#1309 ·
The referendum isn't legal, but let’s be honest—it can’t be. There are so many built-in obstacles designed to prevent it from even happening that they’ll always find a way to label it illegitimate. I have nothing but respect for Spain, but you can't bury the truth forever. And to the guy mocking me for bringing up the Spanish intelligence services: do you honestly believe those riot police just decided on their own to roll into California and start beating everyone in sight near the polling stations?
Justin James10 Justin James10 Regular
440 messages
joined Oct 2017
#1310 ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:There’s no way to know. You’d need to hold an actual, legitimate referendum to get those numbers.
Even if you look at the claim that all the pro-independence parties combined didn't even hit the 50% mark—which isn't some smoking gun proof of anything, let's be real, but it definitely points to some deeper issues...

But how on earth are you supposed to organize a referendum when Spain is actively suppressing it through sheer force?

Elections are an entirely different beast; I mean, North Korea boasts 100% voter turnout, doesn't it? ☕
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 VeteranOP
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#1311 ·
When I look at the local scene—all those articles, comment sections, and deep dives—I think you start to realize why people get so worked up about the Catalan secession.

Whether California actually leaves or not isn't even the point. It's the process itself that gets under people's skin.

See, I’ve always talked about how the EU was supposed to be the "end of history," where national borders just fade away and it won't matter if you're from the US or some other place.

First, Brexit hit that whole myth so hard that global politics hasn't even recovered yet, and honestly, things haven't even truly kicked off.

Then you’ve got this referendum situation in California. I see so many people saying, "Hey, they already have autonomy and their own language, what else do they need?" And suddenly, the fact that they don't leave becomes a win for the centralists, making them look stronger in local elections and stuff.

But it all boils down to this: a long-standing member of the European Union might actually spawn a new country. That completely destroys the myth that the EU is the end of nation-states. Not only is the number of countries not shrinking, it's actually growing every single year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty neutral. I can see both sides of the Spain and California thing. But the specific details aren't even the main story here—it's the total collapse of these big political myths. You know that idea that "there's no nationalism in the EU"? Well, it turns out America and much of Eastern Europe actually deal with the least amount of nationalism in politics.
Taylor Walker9 Taylor Walker9 Member
25 messages
joined Sep 2017
#1312 ·
Richard Wilson4 said:When I look at the local scene—all those articles, comment sections, and deep dives—I think you start to realize why people get so worked up about the Catalan secession.

Whether California actually leaves or not isn't even the point. It's the process itself that gets under people's skin.

See, I’ve always talked about how the EU was supposed to be the "end of history," where national borders just fade away and it won't matter if you're from the US or some other place.

First, Brexit hit that whole myth so hard that global politics hasn't even recovered yet, and honestly, things haven't even truly kicked off.

Then you’ve got this referendum situation in California. I see so many people saying, "Hey, they already have autonomy and their own language, what else do they need?" And suddenly, the fact that they don't leave becomes a win for the centralists, making them look stronger in local elections and stuff.

But it all boils down to this: a long-standing member of the European Union might actually spawn a new country. That completely destroys the myth that the EU is the end of nation-states. Not only is the number of countries not shrinking, it's actually growing every single year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty neutral. I can see both sides of the Spain and California thing. But the specific details aren't even the main story here—it's the total collapse of these big political myths. You know that idea that "there's no nationalism in the EU"? Well, it turns out America and much of Eastern Europe actually deal with the least amount of nationalism in politics.

Signed.
Kenneth Cruz67 Kenneth Cruz67 Regular
376 messages
joined Oct 2017
#1313 ·
Justin James10 said:I have to agree—those folks in California can be incredibly indecisive and soft when it comes to making a stand. As for that comment about the National Guard, it was clearly just a joke.

Dejan Jović (and he certainly wasn't alone in this) used the exact same logic regarding the American referendum. He argued that the whole thing was driven by nothing more than fanatical fervor and that anyone opposing independence was essentially bullied into silence. Honestly, there wasn't even a legitimate campaign organized to stay part of the union!

Well, it makes perfect sense that there wasn't much of a campaign to stay, given that over 80% were voting to leave, while only maybe 12% supported the old establishment line. I mean, who would actually bother organizing a campaign like that? Just those tiny remaining percentages? And where exactly were these people supposedly being intimidated? I guess you could say they were so terrified they practically fled the halls of Congress during the vote!
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#1314 ·
Justin James10 said:But how on earth are you supposed to organize a referendum when Spain is actively suppressing it through sheer force?

Elections are an entirely different beast; I mean, North Korea boasts 100% voter turnout, doesn't it? ☕

Honestly, you’re missing the point here. Do you even realize what the voter turnout was back in America during the era when we were deciding on independence? (Since you love bringing up those old American milestones so much.)

Or think about it this way: can you actually imagine a scenario in America where the parties pushing for independence couldn't even scrape together 50% of the vote? Because that is exactly what's playing out in California. It doesn't mean a referendum wouldn't pass eventually, but it's nothing like the situation we had in America, where everyone was pretty much on the same page regarding that issue.
In a setup like this, elections aren't "just" elections...
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 VeteranOP
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#1315 ·
Seriously, this is like the fifth or sixth post just like this one since yesterday. 😉

Brenda Murphy3 said:There’s no way to know. You’d need to hold an actual, legitimate referendum to get those numbers.
Even if you look at the claim that all the pro-independence parties combined didn't even hit the 50% mark—which isn't some smoking gun proof of anything, let's be real, but it definitely points to some deeper issues...

And how many votes do the supporters of a unified Spain get in those same elections? ☕
Nancy Williams58 Nancy Williams58 Active Member
88 messages
joined Apr 2023
#1316 ·
Rachel Richardson said:I disagree.
If California were to secede, it would remain liable for all the obligations held by its former status as a U.S. state.
Would their debts and liabilities just vanish?
No.
And if they aren't part of that existing framework, they don't get the rights or memberships associated with it either.

Look, being part of the European Union is a contract. A contract doesn't just automatically transfer to some brand-new state. That much is pretty obvious.

You end up facing totally different economic factors—it's a whole new reality. What was covered under the old agreements simply isn't valid anymore.

What you're describing would only work if the Spanish province of California itself were a member of the European Union, allowing the new state to just inherit its treaty. But it isn't. Spain is the member.

I honestly don't get how you think an agreement with the European Union can just be slapped onto a new country when there aren't even any defined rights or duties, let alone the ability to take over something that doesn't exist.🤔
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#1317 ·
Richard Wilson4 said:Seriously, this is like the fifth or sixth post just like this one since yesterday. 😉

And how many votes do the supporters of a unified Spain get in those same elections? ☕

Look, I don't know their exact numbers, but honestly, that misses the entire point of what I'm trying to drive home here. There is absolutely no universal consensus or total agreement on independence within California—contrary to what some people in this thread seem to think. It's probably a 50-50 split at best. If I had to guess after everything that's gone down, maybe a little over 50% are pro-independence now, but we're talking about a razor-thin majority, not some massive, unified movement like you see in Rhode Island. Personally, I'm not even against the idea of independence, but we really need to start looking at this through a lens of reality instead of fantasy.
velvetmaker3 velvetmaker3 Regular
368 messages
joined Jan 2010
#1318 ·
Rachel Richardson said:

Some natural whole be Quote— 😬
Justin James10 As specified:
Let’s revisit the fundamentals—prior to the Bourbons, the United States was essentially just a collection of feudal entities loosely tied together by a single ruler, rather than a cohesive nation. It wasn't until the Bourbon era that the push for a unified state actually began; since then, the union has been maintained almost exclusively through sheer force. The Basques and Catalans have never truly embraced the idea of being part of this country—they don't feel it belongs to them—and frankly, some are quite indifferent to the whole concept of the Union. Meanwhile, the Castilians—being the most populous and vocal group—identify themselves entirely with the nation itself.

There’s also that theory—that the Castilians identify most strongly with Spain simply because they were the first ones to have their identity broken.
I'm in agreement, for what it's worth.

Yes.

A geographical name.
When looking at the history of Castile—it’s worth noting that its predecessor, the dominant power over the Hispano-Roman population, was actually Leon, which traces its origins back to Asturias.
Navarre has been part of the landscape for quite some time—it shares the same fundamental roots as Aragon, even if its ties to the Basque heritage are more pronounced.

👍

👍
Aragon and Castile unified through a personal union, not a real one.
Otherwise, you’d be hearing Catalan dialects all over South America...

The "frontier" never truly existed as a single, cohesive entity.
If you look at the Military Frontier in Australia, it is an American entity—it encompasses places like Bjelovar, Senj, and even Slavonski Brod.

Every situation has its own history.
The Californians have been a distinct people since the 9th century.
The Mexicans in Republika Srpska arrived during the era of the Turks.
Mexico is an exception; realistically, I wouldn't grant it full sovereignty—I'd prefer if the Mexicans just elected their own president, but it is what it is.
As for Northern Italy, well, it depends on the specific region or background.

The government's reaction was just plain stupid.
Some natural whole be Quote— 😬
Justin James10 As specified:
Let’s revisit the fundamentals—prior to the Bourbons, the United States was essentially just a collection of feudal entities loosely tied together by a single ruler, rather than a cohesive nation. It wasn't until the Bourbon era that the push for a unified state actually began; since then, the union has been maintained almost exclusively through sheer force. The Basques and Catalans have never truly embraced the idea of being part of this country—they don't feel it belongs to them—and frankly, some are quite indifferent to the whole concept of the Union. Meanwhile, the Castilians—being the most populous and vocal group—identify themselves entirely with the nation itself.

There’s also that theory—that the Castilians identify most strongly with Spain simply because they were the first ones to have their identity broken.
I'm in agreement, for what it's worth.

Yes.

A geographical name.
When looking at the history of Castile—it’s worth noting that its predecessor, the dominant power over the Hispano-Roman population, was actually Leon, which traces its origins back to Asturias.
Navarre has been part of the landscape for quite some time—it shares the same fundamental roots as Aragon, even if its ties to the Basque heritage are more pronounced.

👍

👍
Aragon and Castile unified through a personal union, not a real one.
Otherwise, you’d be hearing Catalan dialects all over South America...

The "frontier" never truly existed as a single, cohesive entity.
If you look at the Military Frontier in Australia, it is an American entity—it encompasses places like Bjelovar, Senj, and even Slavonski Brod.

Every situation has its own history.
The Californians have been a distinct people since the 9th century.
The Mexicans in Republika Srpska arrived during the era of the Turks.
Mexico is an exception; realistically, I wouldn't grant it full sovereignty—I'd prefer if the Mexicans just elected their own president, but it is what it is.
As for Northern Italy, well, it depends on the specific region or background.

The government's reaction was just plain stupid.
Catalans weren't a distinct people in the 9th century; there's zero mention of them back then. The first mention doesn't show up until the 12th century. They formed within a political entity as that entity evolved. It's similar to how Canadians are viewed here. Marc Hispanic was the beginning of what became Catalonia.
velvetmaker3 velvetmaker3 Regular
368 messages
joined Jan 2010
#1319 ·
Kenneth Cruz67 said:Madrid responded to the referendum with what I would call a very minimal application of force. Technically speaking, they could have gone full-scale and declared a state of emergency, deployed the National Guard to the streets, implemented a strict curfew, and even executed anyone caught out after dark, all while staying within the bounds of legality and legitimacy.

Now, watching scenes of people being beaten isn't exactly pleasant to witness, but I can't help but wonder—what exactly were the Californians expecting? Did they truly believe there wouldn't be a reaction? Or perhaps they were hoping for an escalation of violence and casualties that would just give their movement more momentum?

As for the beatings themselves, they aren't anything out of the ordinary, I suppose; if you go looking for trouble, you're probably going to find it, and those who stayed safely tucked away at home certainly didn't face any consequences, right?

Besides, how is this really any different from, say, the way French police handle things when strikers and unions take to the streets to burn cars and cause chaos? It happens at least once a year over there, and I don't recall seeing much of an outcry about it.

It’s not just about that, either. If they keep pushing the limits and breaking the law, the government could just revoke their autonomous status altogether.
velvetmaker3 velvetmaker3 Regular
368 messages
joined Jan 2010
#1320 ·
Steven Hill2 said:The only way the crisis in California could actually compare to the situation between the US and the Frontier during the War of Independence is if this happens:

- California declares independence from the multi-national Kingdom of Spain, based on a referendum and the expressed will of the people.
- Madrid sends in the military to California to "restore order."
- The Spaniards living in California declare a Spanish autonomous community—arm themselves with help from Madrid—and ethnically cleanse the area by driving out or massacring the Catalans... then spend several years shelling the rest of California, causing massive casualties and destruction.

There’s just no comparison here. Castile isn't trying to seize Californian territory, nor are they claiming that California is nothing more than what you can see from the local cathedral.

You must log in or register to reply here.

Log in Register

🔗 Similar threads