School closures/delays?

Here’s one of the links: grade retention rates

Last school year, we had 125 first graders repeating the grade—up from 132 the year before, though back in 2016/2017, that number was down to 114. The real spike was in 2015/2016, when 154 first graders were held back.

And northerntiger9 makes a fair point (if I remember correctly which county she's from 😬):

According to Department of Education data, the highest retention rates have consistently been in Midwestern and Virovitica-Podravina County regions—and local teachers tell us it mostly involves Rom students or kids coming from underprivileged, struggling families.

The article goes into more detail about this and school deferrals, if anyone actually feels like reading...

I’m assuming this is about Indiana. Personally, I’d probably vote for them by default—strictly because their social welfare programs are such a disaster. Those kids deserve better, I guess.

Sent from my JNY-LX1 via Reddit

I’d personally advocate for a minimum of two years of preschool specifically designed for kids who aren't fluent in English yet, while ensuring all other American child welfare laws are strictly followed.

I’m not even sure if any intervention actually helps them
The truth is, the parents just don't care—it’s like they’re completely indifferent
They live off government assistance and start having kids at fifteen, basically adding a new one to the mix every single year
Honestly, I think the only thing that would work is strict penalties
Like, cut off the welfare benefits if you aren't actually sending your kids to school
You have to hit them in the wallet; nothing else gets through to them
Everyone loves to talk about "integrating" them into American society
But give me a break—they’ve been living here, specifically in my county, for what feels like forever, and if they haven't integrated by now, what are they waiting for?

In my daycare group, we constantly have kids who don't speak a word of English. Last year, we had an immigrant from Albania; she learned so much by the end of the year it was unreal, considering she started with absolutely zero vocabulary
Now we have a kid whose family is from China, but he already knows quite a bit
And for three years now, we’ve had a little boy who came over from the Netherlands; he knew a few phrases of English already
We also had a girl from Egypt for a while, though I'm not really sure what her situation is
But those parents actually make an effort, whereas that isn't the case with the Romani community

Of course, credit where credit is due—there are exceptions. They're rare, but there are some families who are truly impressive, and I really respect them

northerntiger9 said:Here’s one of the links: grade retention rates

Last school year, we had 125 first graders repeating the grade—up from 132 the year before, though back in 2016/2017, that number was down to 114. The real spike was in 2015/2016, when 154 first graders were held back.

And northerntiger9 makes a fair point (if I remember correctly which county she's from 😬):

According to Department of Education data, the highest retention rates have consistently been in Midwestern and Virovitica-Podravina County regions—and local teachers tell us it mostly involves Rom students or kids coming from underprivileged, struggling families.

The article goes into more detail about this and school deferrals, if anyone actually feels like reading...

Given the specific group we’re talking about here, I suspect that data isn't really representative of the general population in America, and I doubt those kids failed a grade because the material was too advanced or they hadn't practiced their reading enough.
It’s almost as if delaying them would change nothing in this scenario.🙄

Ethan Mitchell4 said:I’m not even sure if any intervention actually helps them
The truth is, the parents just don't care—it’s like they’re completely indifferent
They live off government assistance and start having kids at fifteen, basically adding a new one to the mix every single year
Honestly, I think the only thing that would work is strict penalties
Like, cut off the welfare benefits if you aren't actually sending your kids to school
You have to hit them in the wallet; nothing else gets through to them
Everyone loves to talk about "integrating" them into American society
But give me a break—they’ve been living here, specifically in my county, for what feels like forever, and if they haven't integrated by now, what are they waiting for?

In my daycare group, we constantly have kids who don't speak a word of English. Last year, we had an immigrant from Albania; she learned so much by the end of the year it was unreal, considering she started with absolutely zero vocabulary
Now we have a kid whose family is from China, but he already knows quite a bit
And for three years now, we’ve had a little boy who came over from the Netherlands; he knew a few phrases of English already
We also had a girl from Egypt for a while, though I'm not really sure what her situation is
But those parents actually make an effort, whereas that isn't the case with the Romani community

Of course, credit where credit is due—there are exceptions. They're rare, but there are some families who are truly impressive, and I really respect them

Of course it helps. I mean, what would happen to you if you stopped caring about your own kid and their school attendance?

mellowskipper said:I’m assuming this is about Indiana. Personally, I’d probably vote for them by default—strictly because their social welfare programs are such a disaster. Those kids deserve better, I guess.

Sent from my JNY-LX1 via Reddit

Between delaying school or going straight to preschool, I’d definitely vote for preschool. My biggest worry is that if you push school back until they're 8 or 9, they'll just finish up at 15 and then be out on the streets. Once kids start causing trouble in class, schools often look for any excuse to move them along, and legally, they can do that once they hit 15.
The earlier they get started, the better their chances of actually getting an education.
These kids have real potential, and it feels like such a waste to just keep pushing school back indefinitely. With a warm, dedicated teacher, they could truly thrive.
Plus, getting them into the system early might help pull them away from uninspiring environments and give them a chance to be moved somewhere more supportive.

They're a perfect example of why delaying school makes zero sense unless you're actively working on building the skills they need to succeed both in class and later in life.

I'm curious about how things work for those little ones from the traveler communities who don't speak English yet—is there any kind of special arrangement made regarding their start date for school?

Susan James said:Between delaying school or going straight to preschool, I’d definitely vote for preschool. My biggest worry is that if you push school back until they're 8 or 9, they'll just finish up at 15 and then be out on the streets. Once kids start causing trouble in class, schools often look for any excuse to move them along, and legally, they can do that once they hit 15.
The earlier they get started, the better their chances of actually getting an education.
These kids have real potential, and it feels like such a waste to just keep pushing school back indefinitely. With a warm, dedicated teacher, they could truly thrive.
Plus, getting them into the system early might help pull them away from uninspiring environments and give them a chance to be moved somewhere more supportive.

They're a perfect example of why delaying school makes zero sense unless you're actively working on building the skills they need to succeed both in class and later in life.

From what I’ve seen, though... it’s an uphill battle. A tiny fraction of people actually choose a different path than the one laid out for them—especially the women. Honestly, I think we're looking at several generations before we see a real shift in the culture. Right now, more of them are getting an education than ever before, which helps—they're becoming more literate, and hopefully, their kids and grandkids will reap the benefits. But the real game-changer? Getting out of those specific neighborhoods. People who live outside those tight-knit areas tend to fare much better because they aren't constantly being pulled back by all that local tradition and social pressure.
Younger siblings can be a great example of this, too. Take the firstborns in these families—when they start school, they often have zero grasp of English, or it's incredibly weak (I can only imagine if I were dropped into a place where everyone spoke a foreign language; I'd have to master the tongue just to survive, let alone function). So, once they get to school, they learn the language there, and then they go home and practice their English with their little brothers and sisters just so they can keep up in class.

Anthony Gray said:From what I’ve seen, though... it’s an uphill battle. A tiny fraction of people actually choose a different path than the one laid out for them—especially the women. Honestly, I think we're looking at several generations before we see a real shift in the culture. Right now, more of them are getting an education than ever before, which helps—they're becoming more literate, and hopefully, their kids and grandkids will reap the benefits. But the real game-changer? Getting out of those specific neighborhoods. People who live outside those tight-knit areas tend to fare much better because they aren't constantly being pulled back by all that local tradition and social pressure.
Younger siblings can be a great example of this, too. Take the firstborns in these families—when they start school, they often have zero grasp of English, or it's incredibly weak (I can only imagine if I were dropped into a place where everyone spoke a foreign language; I'd have to master the tongue just to survive, let alone function). So, once they get to school, they learn the language there, and then they go home and practice their English with their little brothers and sisters just so they can keep up in class.

That’s exactly why I say it’s better for them to start early, even if it involves PPP, rather than delaying their education. By then, it's often too late.
And the girls, especially when they hit that age around 7th grade—which feels like they're turning 15 already—they often drop out of school to "start a family."

Regarding the question about language, all ethnic minorities have the right to be educated in their own native tongue. Most schools generally arrange for language lessons alongside the standard curriculum.
In practice, the organization varies from place to place, but it does happen.
We shouldn't forget that kids pick up languages at lightning speed; if they're exposed to it, they can easily grasp a language that isn't their mother tongue.

Sure, I can. But let’s be real—it’s a massive uphill battle when you're stuck sitting through three or four hours of classes every day surrounded by a demographic shift like that. And we shouldn't gloss over the fact that many parents in those specific communities aren't even prioritizing their kids' education—or rather, there's a fundamental lack of engagement there. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but they're rare.

Carl Bishop2 said:I'm curious about how things work for those little ones from the traveler communities who don't speak English yet—is there any kind of special arrangement made regarding their start date for school?

Usually not, if language is the only issue.
With those communities, there are tons of other areas where they fall behind, so when you add all that up, that's when the delays happen.
Though, in the last few years, some have been really decent—buying houses in rural towns, working abroad, and honestly, you wouldn't even realize they were Roman just by looking at them. They've blended in physically quite a bit with Americans, even if you look closely enough to notice their specific facial features.
I read somewhere that they've been settled in parts of Iowa for over 300 years, but their assimilation is going terribly poorly.
You can't really blame us for not accepting them; the responsibility lies with them. We truly embrace the ones who are decent, and I'd say those people are becoming more common.

Personally, I have zero issues with my child hanging out with anyone. In fact, back when he was a little kid and was terrified of every other child in the park—totally lacking social skills—he actually played best with the little Roman kids. They'd drag him around where he couldn't go on his own and help him climb things, whereas our own kids aren't always that open or friendly.

By the way, this separation isn't exclusive to the Roman community. Last year, we had an Albanian girl; she was six years old and didn't know a single word of English. She was born right here in the States (her parents have probably lived here for 20 years), and she has older siblings who go to school and speak the language perfectly. But nobody thought it was important for her to learn the language of the country she lives in. It was obvious she hadn't had any contact with Americans, otherwise, she would have picked something up. The poor girl had massive psychological struggles when she started preschool—she was vomiting every single day and everything. I think even her teacher or someone close to her acted as her pediatrician.

It's a whole mess, but I don't think they're being held back specifically because of the language barrier.

I’m facing a bit of a dilemma this year regarding my son’s school enrollment, and frankly, I am at a complete loss as to what the right move is... He’s been in speech therapy for three years now, dealing with a developmental language disorder diagnosis. For a long time, it really showed in how he struggled with grammar—we finally managed to get a handle on gendered nouns, but he still trips over his cases quite frequently. His sentences tend to be rather clipped, and his ability to retell stories is a major struggle; we are still wrestling with concepts like yesterday, today, and tomorrow... If today is Friday, he can easily tell you Tuesday is four days away, but if I ask him what he did yesterday, he’ll just tell me what he did this morning...
His focus is actually quite remarkable; his therapist mentioned she rarely sees a child with these specific challenges who possesses such an intense level of concentration... He has mastered analysis and synthesis, can read simpler sentences, and handles addition and subtraction up to 100, as well as multiplication, without much trouble.
On top of that, he is quite emotionally immature for his age, so we are working through that with a child psychologist, and he’s started some sports to help build up his self-confidence...

Now, here is where the conflict lies: his private speech therapist is strongly advocating for him to delay starting kindergarten. She believes that having one more year will make a massive difference, particularly regarding his emotional maturity...
However, the therapist at his preschool—who doesn't see him nearly as often since he's already in their specialized program and spends most of his time with other kids—is against delaying him. Her argument is that he’ll need Individualized Education Programs (IEPs) eventually anyway, so one extra year won't change much of the long-term trajectory... but it feels to me like she’s mostly focusing on his chronological age, repeatedly reminding me that if we wait, he’ll be entering first grade as a full eight-year-old...
I find myself leaning heavily toward the opinion of our private therapist, who works with him twice a week and seems to have a far more realistic grasp of his actual capabilities, yet I feel this immense pressure from the preschool staff to align with the institutional view... They keep bringing up his age as if it were the only metric that matters...
I truly don't know... I can't help but feel it might be less damaging to let him start school at eight than to push him in now only to have him feel completely overwhelmed and crushed by the workload right out of the gate...
I suppose we will all go through the standard testing process soon, and then the school district will weigh in with their own assessment, but I would dearly love to have my own stance firmly established by then... though, honestly, I haven't the slightest clue what the smartest path forward actually is...

It seems to me—if I may be so bold—that you might actually have a gifted child on your hands

mellowskipper said:It seems to me—if I may be so bold—that you might actually have a gifted child on your hands

Yes, yes, it’s all been addressed, though there is still the matter of him struggling with things like running or similar physical hurdles. 😁
He certainly faces some challenges, and if it weren't for those difficulties, I suppose he wouldn't even be undergoing the specialized treatment he is currently receiving... He is making progress, naturally, and I assume more work will be required, but what truly keeps me up at night is whether or not he’ll actually need to hold back a year from school. He’ll likely settle everything during his evaluations, especially since he’s been working intensely with a speech therapist this whole time, yet it is that emotional component—that internal struggle—that weighs on my mind far more than the physical aspects. The obstacles he deals with will probably remain part of his life in the long run, so it’s really a question of how we proceed... do we throw him into the deep end right now and just hope for the best, or do we allow him that one extra year in order to perhaps mitigate some of these issues down the road? I simply don't know...

How does his emotional immaturity actually manifest in his day-to-day behavior? And what’s he really like when it comes to socializing with others?

Here’s a perfect illustration of the struggle... We were playing that "Guess Who?" game the other day, and he asks me, "Does your character wear glasses?" So I tell him, "No." Then there's this long, agonizing pause while his brain tries to process the logic—since the character doesn't have glasses, he realizes he has to eliminate everyone on the board wearing them. And don't even get me started on prepositions; we spent an eternity wrestling with whether something was "in," "on," or "beside" something else because the nuances just aren't clicking yet...
Then, he'll trip up on pronouns because the way they link back to subjects just doesn't make any sense to him yet.
I can outrun you. But why can't he say "I am faster than you" instead of some broken version of it?
From what I can gather by skimming through his notes, it seems like he’s finally starting to grasp how cases work, mostly because he can actually recognize a sentence like "the cat is in the basket" and leave it at that... otherwise, he’d be saying "the cat is into the basket" or some other nonsense.

Carl Bishop2 said:How does his emotional immaturity actually manifest in his day-to-day behavior? And what’s he really like when it comes to socializing with others?

He really struggles to ask for help—even from me... I’ve been working with a speech therapist for months just trying to get him to the point where he can say, "I don't know how to do this," instead of just freezing up and letting the tears well up in his eyes. At preschool, he's in a mixed-age group, and he tends to gravitate toward the younger kids or the little girls his age because his teacher mentions he has a hard time keeping up with the boys... they tend to pick on him for being a bit more sensitive or "babyish," and then he just retreats into himself.
If he hits a snag with something—and let's be honest, things go wrong quite often—he won't give up, he's incredibly stubborn about that, but everything is inevitably accompanied by a lot of crying.
We must have played about 5,000 rounds of Uno at home just trying to teach him how to lose without a complete meltdown...

On the other hand, he's quite independent in some ways; he goes to the corner store by himself, strikes up conversations with the cashier, handles the recycling, and walks to the trash bin without any trouble since it's right there on our street. He's perfectly fine staying home alone while I run errands. However, he won't just approach a group of kids he doesn't know to start playing; he's much more passive, waiting for someone else to invite him in.
Following a recommendation from his psychologist, he recently started an individual combat sports program, and I can see the coach making a real effort to praise him... he comes home from practice looking so happy, almost as if he's finally starting to find a bit of self-confidence.

Admittedly, this whole tendency toward hesitation—that reluctance to engage with strangers or the refusal to offer an answer unless I am absolutely, positively certain—is simply part of his core makeup, much like my own... traits that, if I recall correctly, followed me well into my late teens. Even back in high school, I found myself swallowing tears over a mediocre grade; though, of course, I wasn't about to let anyone actually see me weep out of sheer embarrassment, and even during my years at the university, the mere thought of approaching someone felt like an insurmountable hurdle. I suppose I never once dared to provide an answer during an exam unless I was 101% sure of its validity.

It is only when these tendencies collide with specific life struggles that things become truly complicated. Here in the States, we place such a heavy emphasis on building up one's self-confidence, but I have learned that it is rarely as simple as just deciding to be bold...

Drew Johnson2 said:I’m facing a bit of a dilemma this year regarding my son’s school enrollment, and frankly, I am at a complete loss as to what the right move is... He’s been in speech therapy for three years now, dealing with a developmental language disorder diagnosis. For a long time, it really showed in how he struggled with grammar—we finally managed to get a handle on gendered nouns, but he still trips over his cases quite frequently. His sentences tend to be rather clipped, and his ability to retell stories is a major struggle; we are still wrestling with concepts like yesterday, today, and tomorrow... If today is Friday, he can easily tell you Tuesday is four days away, but if I ask him what he did yesterday, he’ll just tell me what he did this morning...
His focus is actually quite remarkable; his therapist mentioned she rarely sees a child with these specific challenges who possesses such an intense level of concentration... He has mastered analysis and synthesis, can read simpler sentences, and handles addition and subtraction up to 100, as well as multiplication, without much trouble.
On top of that, he is quite emotionally immature for his age, so we are working through that with a child psychologist, and he’s started some sports to help build up his self-confidence...

Now, here is where the conflict lies: his private speech therapist is strongly advocating for him to delay starting kindergarten. She believes that having one more year will make a massive difference, particularly regarding his emotional maturity...
However, the therapist at his preschool—who doesn't see him nearly as often since he's already in their specialized program and spends most of his time with other kids—is against delaying him. Her argument is that he’ll need Individualized Education Programs (IEPs) eventually anyway, so one extra year won't change much of the long-term trajectory... but it feels to me like she’s mostly focusing on his chronological age, repeatedly reminding me that if we wait, he’ll be entering first grade as a full eight-year-old...
I find myself leaning heavily toward the opinion of our private therapist, who works with him twice a week and seems to have a far more realistic grasp of his actual capabilities, yet I feel this immense pressure from the preschool staff to align with the institutional view... They keep bringing up his age as if it were the only metric that matters...
I truly don't know... I can't help but feel it might be less damaging to let him start school at eight than to push him in now only to have him feel completely overwhelmed and crushed by the workload right out of the gate...
I suppose we will all go through the standard testing process soon, and then the school district will weigh in with their own assessment, but I would dearly love to have my own stance firmly established by then... though, honestly, I haven't the slightest clue what the smartest path forward actually is...

My two cents: ask for the delay. That extra year could mean everything for his emotional and psychological well-being—it'll make it much easier for him to deal with the fact that some things come harder to him than to others.
If you ask me, it feels like the preschool is just eager to clear a spot in their enrollment. ☕