What's the point of required reading?

wanderingbadger44 said:For heaven's sake, please explain to me why it would be in a teacher's best interest to force a child to learn something specifically when it goes against what the parent wants. I am genuinely asking you to walk me through that logic.

What exactly is this supposed "teacher's interest" you're talking about?

I could certainly give you plenty of examples regarding a teacher's interest in not pushing back against a parent's wishes.

But I want you to tell me: what is my personal incentive to insist on something that contradicts a parent's will?

Why on earth would I try to force biology on Manchild's kid or John Doe's child—using those specific names Manchild mentioned—or push Faulkner, when at the end of the day, the parent is the customer, and we all know the old adage that the customer is always right?

I clearly see how it benefits society and the community for children to read, to become literate, and to grow more educated. But as for my own personal gain, kill me now, because I simply don't see any.

And if society has such an interest, then society should have the mechanisms in place to make it happen. Instead, society ties my hands behind my back and then expects me to act like it's my personal mission to ensure kids read, even though I have no way to fight for it.

I guess I just live in a fantasy world where people actually do their jobs honestly and provide the service they’re paid for.

I expect a surgeon to operate ethically,
that a dentist doesn't pull the wrong tooth,
that a mechanic fixes the car so it’s actually safe to drive on the highway,
that a chef at a restaurant serves edible food,
that a cashier gives me the correct change,
that a hairstylist tells me she won't dye my hair if it's too damaged, even if it means losing money right then,
that a plumber actually replaces the pipe instead of just charging for it,
and that a teacher actually teaches the child.

Now, I'm certainly no expert on surgery, plumbing, or pedagogy. I can't claim to be an authority on which literature is "best" (I can have a subjective opinion, but I'm not an expert), nor can I dictate what you all decide to feed your children.

If you think I'm naive or overly optimistic for believing that if I work honestly, the rest of the world should follow suit, then fine.
And I know that isn't how it works.
I see proof of that every single day.

I've heard all kinds of demands from parents.
I've heard teachers say, "I don't care, I know better than you," and I've also heard those who just hang their heads and give up—not just on teaching, but on life itself. They end up failing the kids too... like when a helicopter parent complains that their precious little one is "stressed," so the teacher decides to just stop trying altogether.

Parents aren't going to suddenly become more realistic or reasonable in ten years. Honestly, what are you thinking? 🤣
They might actually get worse, because they're being allowed to micromanage schools (just look at how pediatricians were allowed to bypass vaccinations, and now we're dealing with measles outbreaks).

I see disagreements even among literature professors regarding what reading material should be assigned, and I know that can lead to parental manipulation—where people exploit those academic debates to squeeze out better grades or even just to get their kid out of doing any work at all.
And I know there are teachers who simply check out, who welcome the helicopter parents because it's easier to say, "Oh, reading is just too traumatic for my child right now, can't we skip it?"—allowing the kids to just color during class instead of engaging with the book.
And of course, it opens the door for extra income through private tutoring (with a friend, naturally) or SAT prep later on. When you combine that with low salaries, this whole situation really feeds into the private tutoring market.
And let’s not forget how much the public gets fed misinformation just to serve whatever political agenda is currently in power.

Susan James said:I guess I just live in a fantasy world where people actually do their jobs honestly and provide the service they’re paid for.

I expect a surgeon to operate ethically,
that a dentist doesn't pull the wrong tooth,
that a mechanic fixes the car so it’s actually safe to drive on the highway,
that a chef at a restaurant serves edible food,
that a cashier gives me the correct change,
that a hairstylist tells me she won't dye my hair if it's too damaged, even if it means losing money right then,
that a plumber actually replaces the pipe instead of just charging for it,
and that a teacher actually teaches the child.

Now, I'm certainly no expert on surgery, plumbing, or pedagogy. I can't claim to be an authority on which literature is "best" (I can have a subjective opinion, but I'm not an expert), nor can I dictate what you all decide to feed your children.

If you think I'm naive or overly optimistic for believing that if I work honestly, the rest of the world should follow suit, then fine.
And I know that isn't how it works.
I see proof of that every single day.

I've heard all kinds of demands from parents.
I've heard teachers say, "I don't care, I know better than you," and I've also heard those who just hang their heads and give up—not just on teaching, but on life itself. They end up failing the kids too... like when a helicopter parent complains that their precious little one is "stressed," so the teacher decides to just stop trying altogether.

Parents aren't going to suddenly become more realistic or reasonable in ten years. Honestly, what are you thinking? 🤣
They might actually get worse, because they're being allowed to micromanage schools (just look at how pediatricians were allowed to bypass vaccinations, and now we're dealing with measles outbreaks).

I see disagreements even among literature professors regarding what reading material should be assigned, and I know that can lead to parental manipulation—where people exploit those academic debates to squeeze out better grades or even just to get their kid out of doing any work at all.
And I know there are teachers who simply check out, who welcome the helicopter parents because it's easier to say, "Oh, reading is just too traumatic for my child right now, can't we skip it?"—allowing the kids to just color during class instead of engaging with the book.
And of course, it opens the door for extra income through private tutoring (with a friend, naturally) or SAT prep later on. When you combine that with low salaries, this whole situation really feeds into the private tutoring market.
And let’s not forget how much the public gets fed misinformation just to serve whatever political agenda is currently in power.

I wouldn't say that; rather, I think you're being quite cynical, and honestly, your own arguments here are contributing to this whole culture of overbearing entitlement.

I expect a surgeon to operate on a person honestly.

Do you walk into a hospital and demand a surgeon treat your gallbladder because you’ve decided they actually need to look at your kidney instead? Or do you tell a professor exactly which book a student should read?
Do you expect an anesthesiologist to administer sedation when the patient hasn't even brought in the necessary lab results or completed the check-ups required for them to safely determine the dosage? Do you expect a doctor to cure someone who refuses to take their prescribed medication or follow a diet?
If the answer is no, then your comparison doesn't hold water.

that a dentist won't pull the wrong tooth.

Do you demand that a dentist pulls your molar instead of your premolar?
Or do you expect them to perform the procedure while you're thrashing around and screaming that you won't open your mouth?
If not, your analogy is off the mark.

that an auto mechanic fixes the car so it can drive on the road just like any other vehicle.

Do you tell your mechanic to fix the clutch when you're certain about one thing, but he insists the brakes are actually the problem? If not, your comparison fails.

that my chef at a restaurant cooks an edible meal.

Do you argue with the chef that the beef is actually turkey? If not, your comparison falls apart.

that a cashier gives me the correct change.

Do you decide the price of the product you're buying while standing at the register? If not, your comparison is flawed.

that my hairstylist tells me she won't dye my hair right now if it looks too damaged, even though she'd be losing money by saying no.

Now, that is the one comparison you actually got right. But even then, if you push hard enough, she will probably end up coloring it anyway—and then you'll just find a way to blame her for it.

I I want my plumber to actually swap out the pipe instead of just sending me a bill for the visit.

Are you actually specifying which pipe they use, its size, or what it’s made of? If you aren't giving them those details, then your comparison doesn't really hold water.

It's like my child's teacher trying to educate them.

But does that teacher also go through the struggle of wrestling with you, trying to convince you, explaining their reasoning, pleading with you, and justifying every single request they make to your kid?

If not, then keep expecting that level of control.
Think of it like this: I'm a hair stylist who might tell you that you don't really need to dye your hair, but if you insist on it, you're going to get the color you asked for. ☕

Sarah Hall53 said:... or just a whole lot of luck with all those little hiccups and mishaps. ☕

It’s possible. Someone gets lucky and hits the Powerball jackpot (probability 1:15 x 10^-6)

nimblelynx7 said:It’s possible. Someone gets lucky and hits the Powerball jackpot (probability 1:15 x 10^-6)

Congrats. 👏 You basically shut down the whole conversation by comparing the likelihood of picking one correct answer out of four to the slim chance of winning the lottery.

wanderingbadger44 said:Congrats. 👏 You basically shut down the whole conversation by comparing the likelihood of picking one correct answer out of four to the slim chance of winning the lottery.

The probability of getting every single answer right can be calculated similarly:

number of questions! * number of correct answers! / total number of options!

For years, everyone’s been complaining that kids just hate reading assigned books, claiming they’re too deep or whatever for their age. Well, as part of this whole new "school of hard knocks" reform, things are finally starting to shift in the classroom.

The whole approach to reading lists is getting overhauled. They're trimming down the mandatory list, and now students actually get a say in what they read alongside their teachers. Instead of forcing kids to grind out some boring essay about a book they hated, the focus is moving toward actual discussions.

After a bunch of expert debates, we finally have a clear picture of what the reading curriculum is going to look like from here on out. It turns out both students and teachers are craving more modern stuff and more freedom to choose.

High schoolers will still have at least five classic works per grade level. Beyond that, professors pick five, and then the student gets to pick one themselves. For middle schoolers in grades 5 through 8, there are two mandatory books, six picked by the teachers, and one chosen by the kid.

Larry Walker24 said:For years, everyone’s been complaining that kids just hate reading assigned books, claiming they’re too deep or whatever for their age. Well, as part of this whole new "school of hard knocks" reform, things are finally starting to shift in the classroom.

The whole approach to reading lists is getting overhauled. They're trimming down the mandatory list, and now students actually get a say in what they read alongside their teachers. Instead of forcing kids to grind out some boring essay about a book they hated, the focus is moving toward actual discussions.

After a bunch of expert debates, we finally have a clear picture of what the reading curriculum is going to look like from here on out. It turns out both students and teachers are craving more modern stuff and more freedom to choose.

High schoolers will still have at least five classic works per grade level. Beyond that, professors pick five, and then the student gets to pick one themselves. For middle schoolers in grades 5 through 8, there are two mandatory books, six picked by the teachers, and one chosen by the kid.

how exactly—if at all—are they planning to grade or evaluate this student "free choice"?
are there even any guidelines provided for the students?
or did the higher-ups just throw around the word "free" without actually thinking through the logistics?
so, a teacher could potentially end up with twenty-five trivial assignments to grade per class, (since kids, let's face it, rarely pick something with actual literary merit—which I guess is the whole reason people complain about required reading in the first place)🍿 and if the goal is to actually talk about the book, the teacher actually has to read it.
which means if someone is teaching 4th or 5th grade, they’re looking at maybe a hundred "books" a year that are theoretically completely irrelevant or, frankly, just plain bad.
if a girl decides she wants to read some random blog post by someone like Nick, is that supposed to count?

🤦

or is the teacher just expected to sit there, listen to a brief summary and a student's opinion on something they haven't even read themselves? (I mean, a kid could just tell their parents at home; why waste precious classroom time?)
by the time twenty-five students have shared their views on some "work," five hours will have passed, and the students won't get any real feedback unless the teacher can actually weigh in on whether the character dynamics or the characterizations were even remotely accurate.

so we're back to the same point—it's supposed to be about discussion, not writing.
that's an interesting thesis, considering you basically have to write a decent essay here on Walgreens to be heard. How are they going to learn that? By excluding school assignments? I highly doubt it...

I get the feeling, once again, that this is being driven by people who haven't stepped foot in a classroom in ages. They're just giving the public exactly what they want to hear, without much regard for how it'll actually play out in reality.

It's bad, just bad.☕

The selection will likely be open from the provided list of books 😁
Since our students get to pick from a set selection this year, I’m assuming it’ll work the same way here

I can give you a great example from back in the late '90s and early 2000s; back in 8th grade, our teacher actually gave us two different books to choose from! We still had to write about them, of course. I even remember which ones I picked—Empress and Ujevic.
Throughout high school, we spent all four years discussing literature during seminar blocks. Sometimes we’d get an essay for homework, and one of the prompts would almost always be tied to a book we read.
So, it’s definitely doable—certainly nothing groundbreaking.
And honestly, what's the harm in analyzing something written by someone like Nick? In my senior year, we were allowed to pick any song by a domestic artist we liked and analyze it for an assignment. I still remember analyzing Gibbon's "Secret Skill." Teaching kids critical thinking and how to build an argument based on things they actually relate to—how is that such a bad thing? It doesn't mean the entire curriculum will be garbage or that everything else gets tossed out.

I suppose it’s just because most of them either don't bother reading at all or they're busy consuming total garbage. I don't have anything against them doing that in their own free time, but it really shouldn't be happening during American literature class.
They ought to try developing some sort of critical perspective toward works that actually hold some semblance of value. They should argue their points and tear those classics apart if they must—by all means, go ahead.
But turning a lesson into a session where they just gossip about somewannabe Instagram influencers? No, that's not it.
People can do that on forums or social media instead.
And I'll say it again—there’s no point in having a debate if neither person involved actually knows the subject matter. And honestly, I don't see why people are getting so worked up at the teachers over this kind of nonsense... I guess I just don't get it.

Honestly, we could probably even use our trash as a teaching tool—a way to show kids what actually counts as waste and how to spot it in their daily lives.

Sometimes I assign my students optional reading—just stuff from the standard curriculum, nothing extra. On average, maybe three kids actually pick them up. Their assignment? They have to pitch the book to a specific group of classmates, regardless of their reading level or interests. Honestly, the marketing campaigns they come up with are incredibly creative and original; they really dive deep into the psychology of their target audience to make it sell.

If they choose some incredibly shallow, mindless romance novel for their elective, they better be able to convince me. Or, they can take a more sarcastic, ironic approach to presenting it. Anything goes. 😉 I also grade them on their communication skills. I’m definitely not going to sit through every single piece of garbage they pick just to check if they did a good job analyzing the characters.

But there are honestly so many ways to handle this; like, maybe a "pitch me" session where students have to present their chosen content so effectively that even the professor actually wants to dive in. Then, for example, during the next class, everyone shares those most compelling pieces and opens it up for discussion. I think it would lead to way more engagement and genuine enjoyment than, I don't know, Combray (which still gives me nightmares, honestly). And again—we’re talking about one single block period here, not an entire year of elective freedom—so they should be able to manage it; besides, for the exact reason you mentioned—they barely read anything as it is! If you want to encourage them to actually read more and interact, you have to offer them something that actually resonates with them.

Hmm, I get the impression that they’re actually offering a selection of books now, and students get to choose—there are only one or two mandatory ones per year.
I noticed this when I was looking over the reading list for that war diary project.

My kid doesn't have a specific reading log to keep track of everything. They just work through all the titles during class.
I'm not entirely sure how the teacher handles the grading, but she gives grades during that period, so I assume she checks their comprehension through group discussions.
For those elective books, it seems like she picks them so everyone stays on the same page. At the end of the school year, they actually had a presentation session where the kids brought in a book of their own choice to pitch to the class—it was a bit of a chaotic attempt to get their peers interested in reading—which sounds a lot like what > mentioned.
The kids even put together a list of those books themselves, which turned into a fun summer reading challenge, and they even made a poster for it that hung up at the start of the new school year.
Of course, you have some parents who aren't fans of this style and grumble about it, but personally, I think it's a fantastic approach.

Back when I was in high school in the mid-nineties, we used to do oral exams for our third and fourth required readings. We were expected to know the fine details because we never knew which essay prompt might come up.
To me, that way of learning is so much better than the modern trend of just copying and pasting stuff from the internet or having parents jump in to help write the assignments.

So, all things considered, it really feels like nothing new is actually being introduced here.

Peter Doyle2 said:But there are honestly so many ways to handle this; like, maybe a "pitch me" session where students have to present their chosen content so effectively that even the professor actually wants to dive in. Then, for example, during the next class, everyone shares those most compelling pieces and opens it up for discussion. I think it would lead to way more engagement and genuine enjoyment than, I don't know, Combray (which still gives me nightmares, honestly). And again—we’re talking about one single block period here, not an entire year of elective freedom—so they should be able to manage it; besides, for the exact reason you mentioned—they barely read anything as it is! If you want to encourage them to actually read more and interact, you have to offer them something that actually resonates with them.

Comer is just okay, but the death of Smith by Cengic, where the whole thing is somehow in Turkish... 🤦🤦🤦

then War and Peace (half the words are French) 🙄🙄

then Judith, then Ribanje and all that fishing nonsense—who cares, who's even looking?

For me, most American required reading—barring a few exceptions like those old registry books—is just garbage. Total trash, impossible to get through.

Hey, does anyone know if there's a list somewhere for the required reading by grade level?

Man, I must be losing it, but how can you guys say it's unreadable? 😳mg: 😳mg:

rowdypanther12 said:Man, I must be losing it, but how can you guys say it's unreadable? 😳mg: 😳mg:

Giving credit to the rare exceptions, I guess.

You just aren't reading carefully. 😉

Yeah, they always love to say "there are exceptions to every rule." 😁
Try actually reading what I wrote, Summer. 🙂

Edit: Just fixing this so I don't look like a complete idiot—I was messing around with emojis and one shows up while the other doesn't, even though it's clearly in the text when I go to edit. Makes zero sense.

Look, manchild, the point isn't that every single book out there needs to be accessible to everyone, because let's be honest, that's physically impossible.
Who on earth actually cares if it’s easy enough for you to digest, you little brat?