IRS and Tax Filing Issues

Arthur Thomas5 said:If a small business—one that isn't actually required to file electronically—decides to go ahead and buy a digital certificate just to start using the IRS online portal, do they forfeit their right to file paper returns? I mean, can they just play both sides? Can such a company switch back and forth between electronic filing and the old-school paper method whenever they feel like it?

And what about the bigger players? Are medium-to-large corporations allowed to submit filings or forms on paper if the electronic system hits a snag and refuses to process them?

Nope, they can't.

Jack Young said:Nope, they can't.

Alright, thanks for getting back to me. I’d just ask one thing: could you actually explain the reasoning behind that opinion? Which specific law or section are we talking about here?

I’ve been digging through the Internal Revenue Code, and honestly, I can’t find a single provision that forbids small businesses from filing their returns in paper format. Is it possible the IRS is intentionally feeding us bad info through their digital portals just because they’re too lazy to manually process paper forms into their system? It feels like that's the case.

The Internal Revenue Code, Section 74, Subsection 6 clearly states:
(6) Taxpayers classified as medium or large enterprises under the provisions of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, along with all VAT-registered entities, are required to submit tax returns or other necessary taxation data to the IRS electronically.

For small taxpayers, there aren't any restrictions listed in the code—at least, none that I can see. If anyone actually knows where these supposed limitations are written down, I’d love to see them.

Arthur Thomas5 said:Alright, thanks for getting back to me. I’d just ask one thing: could you actually explain the reasoning behind that opinion? Which specific law or section are we talking about here?

I’ve been digging through the Internal Revenue Code, and honestly, I can’t find a single provision that forbids small businesses from filing their returns in paper format. Is it possible the IRS is intentionally feeding us bad info through their digital portals just because they’re too lazy to manually process paper forms into their system? It feels like that's the case.

The Internal Revenue Code, Section 74, Subsection 6 clearly states:
(6) Taxpayers classified as medium or large enterprises under the provisions of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, along with all VAT-registered entities, are required to submit tax returns or other necessary taxation data to the IRS electronically.

For small taxpayers, there aren't any restrictions listed in the code—at least, none that I can see. If anyone actually knows where these supposed limitations are written down, I’d love to see them.

The cited section specifies medium or large and all VAT taxpayers..

Under the income tax regulations (I don't recall the exact sections offhand), those with more than three employees are required to file their JOPPD via the IRS portal.
The same regulation also dictates that anyone submitting DI forms must do so through the IRS electronic system.

Experience tells me that anything related to VAT must be submitted through the IRS. I once knew a sole proprietor who had to file both standard VAT and VAT-S, and the agent told them the system wouldn't even allow for manual entry.

I dealt with a case about a month ago. A new client used to handle their VAT filings at a Fidelity branch, though they filed their JOPPD manually since they have no employees. They were refused the paper JOPPD because the system shows someone else has already been authorized for the IRS portal.

Arthur Thomas5: Is anyone else actually looking at this? Really looking at it? Because I’ve been staring at these numbers all morning and the more I dig, the more the math just refuses to settle into anything resembling common sense. It’s all there, laid out in black and white, yet we’re expected to just nod along like everything is perfectly fine? Please. I mean, look at how the IRS is handling these recent adjustments. It’s almost impressive, isn't it? The sheer audacity required to move the goalposts right when people think they finally have a handle on their filings. It feels less like oversight and more like a coordinated effort to ensure no one stays ahead for too long. Does anyone truly believe this was an accidental oversight? I highly doubt it. And then there’s the situation with Fidelity. You’d think a firm of that scale would have better safeguards against this kind of volatility, but here we are. We watch the tickers, we wait for the inevitable correction, and we wonder why the "experts" always seem to be three steps behind the actual market movement. Why is it that the institutions always seem to find a way to stay insulated while the rest of us deal with the fallout? It’s exhausting. Truly. You try to follow the rules, you try to play the game by the book, and then the book gets rewritten in the middle of the night. What’s the point if the landscape shifts every time you get comfortable? I’m tired of the endless cycle of "unforeseen circumstances." At some point, we have to call it what it is.

Arthur Lopez3 said:The cited section specifies medium or large and all VAT taxpayers..

Under the income tax regulations (I don't recall the exact sections offhand), those with more than three employees are required to file their JOPPD via the IRS portal.
The same regulation also dictates that anyone submitting DI forms must do so through the IRS electronic system.

Experience tells me that anything related to VAT must be submitted through the IRS. I once knew a sole proprietor who had to file both standard VAT and VAT-S, and the agent told them the system wouldn't even allow for manual entry.

I dealt with a case about a month ago. A new client used to handle their VAT filings at a Fidelity branch, though they filed their JOPPD manually since they have no employees. They were refused the paper JOPPD because the system shows someone else has already been authorized for the IRS portal.

Let me clear the air and add some much-needed context here. This isn't some massive corporation; the business isn't even registered for sales tax, nor does it have three or more employees on the payroll. When I mentioned that the law doesn't force us to file everything electronically, I was specifically referring to those exact provisions. Why assume the worst when the regulations are quite clear?

So, does a company like that actually have the right to file a paper application instead of going digital, even if they went ahead and signed up for the IRS portal voluntarily? Is the door still open for manual filings once you've already dipped your toes into the electronic system?

Arthur Thomas5 said:Arthur Thomas5: Is anyone else actually looking at this? Really looking at it? Because I’ve been staring at these numbers all morning and the more I dig, the more the math just refuses to settle into anything resembling common sense. It’s all there, laid out in black and white, yet we’re expected to just nod along like everything is perfectly fine? Please. I mean, look at how the IRS is handling these recent adjustments. It’s almost impressive, isn't it? The sheer audacity required to move the goalposts right when people think they finally have a handle on their filings. It feels less like oversight and more like a coordinated effort to ensure no one stays ahead for too long. Does anyone truly believe this was an accidental oversight? I highly doubt it. And then there’s the situation with Fidelity. You’d think a firm of that scale would have better safeguards against this kind of volatility, but here we are. We watch the tickers, we wait for the inevitable correction, and we wonder why the "experts" always seem to be three steps behind the actual market movement. Why is it that the institutions always seem to find a way to stay insulated while the rest of us deal with the fallout? It’s exhausting. Truly. You try to follow the rules, you try to play the game by the book, and then the book gets rewritten in the middle of the night. What’s the point if the landscape shifts every time you get comfortable? I’m tired of the endless cycle of "unforeseen circumstances." At some point, we have to call it what it is.

Let me clear the air and add some much-needed context here. This isn't some massive corporation; the business isn't even registered for sales tax, nor does it have three or more employees on the payroll. When I mentioned that the law doesn't force us to file everything electronically, I was specifically referring to those exact provisions. Why assume the worst when the regulations are quite clear?

So, does a company like that actually have the right to file a paper application instead of going digital, even if they went ahead and signed up for the IRS portal voluntarily? Is the door still open for manual filings once you've already dipped your toes into the electronic system?

I remember getting an answer from the IRS once—just a verbal one, mind you—stating that once you start using their electronic services, you aren't supposed to switch back to filing paper forms. However, at the beginning of last year, we ran into some major technical glitches with the online system, so we ended up hand-delivering a massive stack of paper filings, and they just went ahead and manually entered everything into the system for us.
At the end of the day, my take is that it really just comes down to the individual agent you're dealing with. Honestly, it all depends on the person sitting behind the desk at the local field office.

silverbadger said:I remember getting an answer from the IRS once—just a verbal one, mind you—stating that once you start using their electronic services, you aren't supposed to switch back to filing paper forms. However, at the beginning of last year, we ran into some major technical glitches with the online system, so we ended up hand-delivering a massive stack of paper filings, and they just went ahead and manually entered everything into the system for us.
At the end of the day, my take is that it really just comes down to the individual agent you're dealing with. Honestly, it all depends on the person sitting behind the desk at the local field office.

I’ve been told the exact same lie. Apparently, if you use EPorezna—whether you're forced to by regulation or just choosing convenience—you're stripped of the ability to submit hard copies. They wouldn't even take the paperwork from me. And honestly, it wouldn't even be an issue if this absolute garbage that is EPorezna actually functioned properly instead of crashing right when a filing deadline is breathing down your neck. The system itself apparently blocks manual entry if you're registered for EPorezna; can you believe that? Your situation is a perfect example of how broken this is.

When you push them to cite the specific law that supposedly denies you the right to file on paper, they just start philosophizing. They can't point to a single statute. It’s not the law; it’s just a flaw in their software. Who cares if the system is stubborn? They need to fix the damn interface so it actually complies with the law. Signing up for EPorezna isn't some contract where I waive my legal right to submit physical documents.

So, what’s the move when you're backed into a corner like this? EPorezna won't accept the filing because it keeps erroring out, the IRS refuses to touch your paper forms, and the deadline is staring you in the face. What are you supposed to do?

Arthur Thomas5 said:I’ve been told the exact same lie. Apparently, if you use EPorezna—whether you're forced to by regulation or just choosing convenience—you're stripped of the ability to submit hard copies. They wouldn't even take the paperwork from me. And honestly, it wouldn't even be an issue if this absolute garbage that is EPorezna actually functioned properly instead of crashing right when a filing deadline is breathing down your neck. The system itself apparently blocks manual entry if you're registered for EPorezna; can you believe that? Your situation is a perfect example of how broken this is.

When you push them to cite the specific law that supposedly denies you the right to file on paper, they just start philosophizing. They can't point to a single statute. It’s not the law; it’s just a flaw in their software. Who cares if the system is stubborn? They need to fix the damn interface so it actually complies with the law. Signing up for EPorezna isn't some contract where I waive my legal right to submit physical documents.

So, what’s the move when you're backed into a corner like this? EPorezna won't accept the filing because it keeps erroring out, the IRS refuses to touch your paper forms, and the deadline is staring you in the face. What are you supposed to do?

Why isn't it working, though? It's gotta be throwing some kind of error code, right? Did you check with IT or try downloading the latest update?

Honestly, it makes sense to me. If you decide to go all digital through the federal portal, they aren't going to let you just pivot back to manual filing at the last second.
It’s not like a Chase branch where you can just walk up to the teller if your app glitches. Everything is strictly one way or the other now.

Look, just shoot them an email and ask. There should be an option on the site specifically for technical issues regarding the electronic filing system.

ruggedmaker2 said:Why isn't it working, though? It's gotta be throwing some kind of error code, right? Did you check with IT or try downloading the latest update?

Honestly, it makes sense to me. If you decide to go all digital through the federal portal, they aren't going to let you just pivot back to manual filing at the last second.
It’s not like a Chase branch where you can just walk up to the teller if your app glitches. Everything is strictly one way or the other now.

Look, just shoot them an email and ask. There should be an option on the site specifically for technical issues regarding the electronic filing system.

Why on earth would it be logical for a bank but not for the IRS? Nowhere in the application for using the IRS portal did I waive my right to submit forms in writing. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense to you or to me; the IRS should base its decisions on the law, not on "logic" (not that our laws are particularly logical anyway), and there is absolutely no legal basis for prohibiting the submission of hard-copy forms. It's nothing short of illegal behavior by the agency.

It’s failing because you can’t input a decimal number—which pops up due to partial work hours—into the payroll tax form, specifically under Section B, both points under item 10. And regarding sending an email? An inquiry was sent, but the response was nonexistent, claiming that this is simply how it must be according to the law. So, I sent a follow-up asking them to cite the specific article and statute they're relying on, so we'll see. Of course, you won't get their email response until after the filing deadline has passed—logical, right? And you can't reach them by phone to get immediate info—logical, too. Plus, the filing window is incredibly tight—just one day—so if you fail to submit something instantly, the deadline hits and you're immediately in violation. Logical.

But since we're talking about logic, setting my own situation aside for a moment: what would actually be logical if someone is unable to submit a correct form via the IRS portal? Should they be allowed to submit it in writing, or should they just not submit it at all and automatically face penalties and fines? Common sense and actual logic point toward the former.

Moreover, does an IRS employee even have the authority to refuse to receive or file a declaration, even if it were wrong from start to finish? Who are they to decide what I am permitted to file and what I am not? This is yet another instance of unlawful conduct...

Arthur Thomas5 said:Why on earth would it be logical for a bank but not for the IRS? Nowhere in the application for using the IRS portal did I waive my right to submit forms in writing. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense to you or to me; the IRS should base its decisions on the law, not on "logic" (not that our laws are particularly logical anyway), and there is absolutely no legal basis for prohibiting the submission of hard-copy forms. It's nothing short of illegal behavior by the agency.

It’s failing because you can’t input a decimal number—which pops up due to partial work hours—into the payroll tax form, specifically under Section B, both points under item 10. And regarding sending an email? An inquiry was sent, but the response was nonexistent, claiming that this is simply how it must be according to the law. So, I sent a follow-up asking them to cite the specific article and statute they're relying on, so we'll see. Of course, you won't get their email response until after the filing deadline has passed—logical, right? And you can't reach them by phone to get immediate info—logical, too. Plus, the filing window is incredibly tight—just one day—so if you fail to submit something instantly, the deadline hits and you're immediately in violation. Logical.

But since we're talking about logic, setting my own situation aside for a moment: what would actually be logical if someone is unable to submit a correct form via the IRS portal? Should they be allowed to submit it in writing, or should they just not submit it at all and automatically face penalties and fines? Common sense and actual logic point toward the former.

Moreover, does an IRS employee even have the authority to refuse to receive or file a declaration, even if it were wrong from start to finish? Who are they to decide what I am permitted to file and what I am not? This is yet another instance of unlawful conduct...

Look, if the IRS portal isn't accepting it, it won't work manually either, because they simply haven't accounted for decimal hours—there's nothing you can do there. Just round up to the nearest whole hour to favor the employee and call it a day.

Complaining is just going to draw unwanted attention—then they'll just change the filing regulations so you can't even report 24 minutes of work a day, which—if you ask me—was a stupid rule to begin with. I mean, who tracks 24 minutes? It should have been a minimum of one hour a day and that's that.

Having some trouble with the IRS e-filing system—has anyone dealt with something similar lately?

I run my own bookkeeping business, and honestly, it was my own oversight—I missed the deadline to renew a client's digital certificate. (I work directly with their security tokens)

The client went ahead and filed a request for a reissue through Chase, then handled the power of attorney with the IRS (since they're brothers sharing one token). By the next day, I had the new token with the updated certificates. I installed everything, they show up fine in the active client software, and I can see they were issued yesterday and are valid for two years. But when I try to log in? Nothing happens.

Using Chrome, after I select the certificate, it just throws a proxy connection error. Using IE, it says no certificate was even selected. I called Chase (their support line), and they were super helpful—they confirmed the certificate is totally fine and told me to contact the IRS. So I called the IRS, and the agent there said everything looks processed and updated on their end, so it *should* be working. They suggested I just email the e-filing help desk.

The thing is, I sent that email back on Thursday—complete with screenshots—and, naturally, I haven't heard a peep. It’s already the 20th...😵

We’re currently ironing out those bugs popping up when people try to file their DI forms. We've got a new version of the IRS app ready to go live tomorrow, February 21, 2017—it should clear everything right up.

Thanks for hanging in there with us!

🎉

Arthur Thomas5 said:Why on earth would it be logical for a bank but not for the IRS? Nowhere in the application for using the IRS portal did I waive my right to submit forms in writing. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense to you or to me; the IRS should base its decisions on the law, not on "logic" (not that our laws are particularly logical anyway), and there is absolutely no legal basis for prohibiting the submission of hard-copy forms. It's nothing short of illegal behavior by the agency.

It’s failing because you can’t input a decimal number—which pops up due to partial work hours—into the payroll tax form, specifically under Section B, both points under item 10. And regarding sending an email? An inquiry was sent, but the response was nonexistent, claiming that this is simply how it must be according to the law. So, I sent a follow-up asking them to cite the specific article and statute they're relying on, so we'll see. Of course, you won't get their email response until after the filing deadline has passed—logical, right? And you can't reach them by phone to get immediate info—logical, too. Plus, the filing window is incredibly tight—just one day—so if you fail to submit something instantly, the deadline hits and you're immediately in violation. Logical.

But since we're talking about logic, setting my own situation aside for a moment: what would actually be logical if someone is unable to submit a correct form via the IRS portal? Should they be allowed to submit it in writing, or should they just not submit it at all and automatically face penalties and fines? Common sense and actual logic point toward the former.

Moreover, does an IRS employee even have the authority to refuse to receive or file a declaration, even if it were wrong from start to finish? Who are they to decide what I am permitted to file and what I am not? This is yet another instance of unlawful conduct...

Look, it’s simple. A major bank like Chase has its own massive IT department—full-time programmers sitting right there who can jump on a glitch and fix it relatively fast. The IRS doesn't work like that.
The tech side for the IRS is outsourced to some third-party contractor.
And that’s exactly why, when you run into a software bug or a system error, getting a straight answer is basically impossible.
You’ll notice pretty quickly that nobody at the IRS is going to give you the direct phone number for that outside firm. Everything has to go through official email channels.
Sometimes you end up stuck in this endless loop of back-and-forth messaging just trying to get one coherent sentence out of them.
.

Carol Price4 said:Look, if the IRS portal isn't accepting it, it won't work manually either, because they simply haven't accounted for decimal hours—there's nothing you can do there. Just round up to the nearest whole hour to favor the employee and call it a day.

Complaining is just going to draw unwanted attention—then they'll just change the filing regulations so you can't even report 24 minutes of work a day, which—if you ask me—was a stupid rule to begin with. I mean, who tracks 24 minutes? It should have been a minimum of one hour a day and that's that.

👍
I'm with you on that.
If the FBI is going to start talking about working hours, then the report should damn well reflect at least a full hour.

Joseph Fisher2 said:Having some trouble with the IRS e-filing system—has anyone dealt with something similar lately?

I run my own bookkeeping business, and honestly, it was my own oversight—I missed the deadline to renew a client's digital certificate. (I work directly with their security tokens)

The client went ahead and filed a request for a reissue through Chase, then handled the power of attorney with the IRS (since they're brothers sharing one token). By the next day, I had the new token with the updated certificates. I installed everything, they show up fine in the active client software, and I can see they were issued yesterday and are valid for two years. But when I try to log in? Nothing happens.

Using Chrome, after I select the certificate, it just throws a proxy connection error. Using IE, it says no certificate was even selected. I called Chase (their support line), and they were super helpful—they confirmed the certificate is totally fine and told me to contact the IRS. So I called the IRS, and the agent there said everything looks processed and updated on their end, so it *should* be working. They suggested I just email the e-filing help desk.

The thing is, I sent that email back on Thursday—complete with screenshots—and, naturally, I haven't heard a peep. It’s already the 20th...😵

Once you plug the key in, go down to the taskbar, open the active client, right-click the certificate, and select "make available in Windows"—do that for both of them. That might be the hiccup! After that, check your Chrome settings to make sure it's in the trusted root tab—you'll need to see fin RDC 2015 there...

Carol Price4 said:Once you plug the key in, go down to the taskbar, open the active client, right-click the certificate, and select "make available in Windows"—do that for both of them. That might be the hiccup! After that, check your Chrome settings to make sure it's in the trusted root tab—you'll need to see fin RDC 2015 there...

I've gone through every single step—all the certificates are exactly where they should be...
but it doesn't matter—it isn't even asking for my PIN, it just jumps straight to

"No certificate selected"

Dear User,
access to the application is denied because a valid certificate was not selected. Please close all active browser windows and restart the application. If you continue to encounter this error, you can find solutions and potential causes in the "
frequently asked questions"
document. 🤦

Joseph Fisher2 said:
I've gone through every single step—all the certificates are exactly where they should be...
but it doesn't matter—it isn't even asking for my PIN, it just jumps straight to

"No certificate selected"

Dear User,
access to the application is denied because a valid certificate was not selected. Please close all active browser windows and restart the application. If you continue to encounter this error, you can find solutions and potential causes in the "
frequently asked questions"
document. 🤦

Just unplug the security key and clear out that old certificate stuck in Chrome—then plug it back in and give it another shot...

Do I just clear it out in Chrome from that same list in my trusted folder, or is it tucked away somewhere else too?

Regarding the installation—should I go through that whole process using the FinTech app, or is it enough to just hit "make available" in the active client?

Thanks for the help! 😉

Joseph Fisher2 said:Do I just clear it out in Chrome from that same list in my trusted folder, or is it tucked away somewhere else too?

Regarding the installation—should I go through that whole process using the FinTech app, or is it enough to just hit "make available" in the active client?

Thanks for the help! 😉

Check the trusted root and that first tab—I can't remember the exact name off the top of my head—then just try running the installation procedure again..

Carol Price4 said:We’re currently ironing out those bugs popping up when people try to file their DI forms. We've got a new version of the IRS app ready to go live tomorrow, February 21, 2017—it should clear everything right up.

Thanks for hanging in there with us!

🎉

Hmm, well, I’ve been getting rejected by the DI both yesterday and this morning; it keeps claiming my current year purchase value exceeds last year's closing balance without any new purchases being recorded—which, quite frankly, is absolutely not the case!

Anthony Gonzalez17 said:Hmm, well, I’ve been getting rejected by the DI both yesterday and this morning; it keeps claiming my current year purchase value exceeds last year's closing balance without any new purchases being recorded—which, quite frankly, is absolutely not the case!

Henry Edwards33 said:Ever since they patched that sales tax form, everyone seems to be hitting the exact same wall. 🤣

Here’s the error message popping up on my screen:

The total purchase value for this period shows an increase compared to last year, yet there are no recorded purchase invoices for the current filing year. This form is invalid.

🎉🎉🎉👏🎉🎉🎉

I love it when they get this clever. 🙂

Let me know if anyone actually manages to submit a form or if you hear anything else.