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The Enlightenment as a spiritual movement

Started by Jeremy Alvarez5 · · 👁 5 views · 89 replies

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Participants Jeremy Alvarez5jademarlin26Jeremy Davis7Carol Campbell3analogstag29hiddenhound3stormycanyon11Arthur YoungJohn Jones3wearyhawk83Gregory Jacksonfadedskipper52Bradley Myers63Jerry King11
Jeremy Alvarez5 Jeremy Alvarez5 Active MemberOP
165 messages
joined Aug 2010
#1 ·
Wikipedia:

So, basically, the Enlightenment was this huge intellectual movement that swept through Europe during the 18th century. These thinkers really shook things up in philosophy and literature by questioning the status quo and what it actually means to be human. They leaned heavily on concepts like "nature," "liberty," and "reason"—though I guess when they say reason, they’re talking more about common sense than just cold, hard logic. By pushing back against religious, moral, and political oppression, they were trying to refresh the knowledge, ethics, and aesthetics of their era. The whole vibe was about moving toward an ideal where people act on actual principles rather than just blindly following old habits, customs, or traditions. They kind of saw themselves as this forward-thinking elite, fighting against the irrationality, superstition, and tyranny of the past while trying to drive global progress .
Key figures of the Enlightenment [edit]

* Voltaire (1694-1778)
* French Encyclopedists:
o Denis Diderot (1713-1784)
o Jean le Rond d'Alembert (1717-1783)
o Baron d'Holbach (1723-1789)
* David Hume (1711-1776)
* Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778)
* Adam Smith (1723-1790)
* Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)
* Ephraim Lessing (1729-1781)
* Moses Mendelssohn (1729-1786)
* Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
* Thomas Paine (1737-1809)
* Marquis Condorcet (1743-1794)

Enlightened Monarchs [edit]

* Maria Theresa (Austro-Canadian Empire)
* Frederick the Great (Prussia)
* Catherine II (Russia)
* Joseph II (Austro-Canadian Empire)

See also [edit]

* Enlightenment in American literature
* What is Enlightenment? (Foucault)
* Ernst Cassirer


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_is_Enlightenment?_(Foucault)

What do you guys think? How would you define the Enlightenment, what are its core foundations, and—

—do you think they've sufficiently explained its potential spiritual side?
Jeremy Alvarez5 Jeremy Alvarez5 Active MemberOP
165 messages
joined Aug 2010
#2 ·
Can I jump in? 😍 🙂

I guess I should throw in a few extra thoughts just to set the stage.

If you look at the typical setup in European history, most people were living in rural areas, with only a tiny slice of the population being urban professionals or craftsmen, and then you had the clergy and the nobility. You’d see this intense, almost fanatical devotion to Catholic views, and later Protestant ones, which led to such massive polarization and warfare that it basically cut populations in half across various countries.

That kind of atmosphere—combined with the growing frustration toward the Pope’s authority and his political grip—basically meant there was a huge hunger for people to actually question religious teachings and find logical explanations for them.

The way the nobility was structured also played a role; they weren't really marrying commoners, merchants, or even the occasional philosopher or scientist. Instead, they were marrying into other royal families and princes across different parts of Europe. This created this weirdly cool cultural melting pot where people could speak multiple languages and swap ideas. Because of that, the moral outlook of the elite wasn't just stuck in some local or nationalist bubble. They tended to favor more open-minded perspectives that allowed for more knowledge and interesting experiences. So, you end up with this courtly elite that, while still influenced by their churches and local customs, became somewhat cosmopolitan. They could look at things from different angles, which allowed them to develop their own unique moral perspectives outside of strict church doctrine.

The next step in this whole thing would probably be a sense of isolation. There was this push to bring in more artists, philosophers, and scientists, along with a desire to pull the general public away from the rigid views forced upon them by the church and the nobility—who, let's be honest, weren't really any smarter or more interesting than the people they ruled over. Now, when you think about these Enlightenment thinkers who wanted to establish schools and spread knowledge to drive innovation and science, they weren't just fighting for the sake of it. They were facing heavy pushback from those who preferred keeping people in a subservient state, clinging to the idea that the ruling class were divinely appointed leaders.

At the end of the day, everyone tends to flock to their own kind. For the Enlightenment thinkers to survive, they had to build strong connections through supra-national and supra-church power structures. If they didn't, they risked being wiped out by the constant cycle of rebellions and conspiracies, especially since religious fanaticism hasn't historically been kind to kingdoms or small groups of people. So, we end up with a situation like this:

Historians have recently been debating the extent to which Freemasonry was part of, or even a main factor in the Enlightenment. On the one hand, historians agree that the famous leaders of the Enlightenment included Freemasons such as Montesquieu, Voltaire, Pope, Horace Walpole, Sir Robert Walpole, Mozart, Goethe, Frederick the Great, Benjamin Franklin, and George Washington.[69] On the other side, historians such as Robert Roswell Palmer concluded that even in France, Masons were politically "innocuous if not ridiculous" and did not act as a group.[70] American historians, while noting that Benjamin Franklin and George Washington were indeed active Masons, have downplayed the importance of Freemasonry in the era of the American Revolution because the movement was non-political and included both Patriots and their enemy the Loyalists.[71] Regarding the movements influence on the European contintent, German historian Reinhart Koselleck claimed that "On the Continent there were two social structures that left a decisive imprint on the Age of Enlightenment: the Republic of Letters and the Masonic lodges."[72], while professor at University of Glasgow Thomas Munck argues that "although the Masons did promote international and cross-social contacts which were essentially non-religious and broadly in agreement with enlightened values, they can hardly be described as a major radical or reformist network in their own right."[73]

So, I was reading up on this the other day, and it turns out that Freemasonic lodges actually got their start back in the 1600s, stemming from those old-school stonemason guilds in England and Scotland. By the 1700s, though, things really shifted. They morphed into this massive, sprawling web of various men's groups—and yeah, even some women's associations too—that were all loosely connected. According to Margaret Jacob, these groups weren't just social clubs; they had their own deep-seated mythologies and specific ways of behaving. It seems like they carried over this shared sense of liberty and equality that they basically picked up from the way those old guilds used to hang out and interact. It’s kind of wild when you think about it—there’s this striking overlap between those core values and the famous "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" slogan that kicked off the French Revolution. Because those ideas were so similar to what people were already feeling in both Britain and across much of Europe at the time, it sparked a ton of conspiracy theories. One guy, Abbé Barruel, actually went as far as to claim that the Jacobins—and by extension, the whole Revolution itself—could be traced right back to the Freemasons. I guess it makes sense why people would try to connect those dots, even if it sounds a bit intense.

So, I was digging around into the history of Freemasonry, and it’s actually pretty wild how it all started taking shape over in Europe back in the early 1700s. If you look at the timeline, things really started getting official around 1734 with a lodge popping up in The Hague, though if you go even further back, it looks like there were already some "fully formed" groups meeting in Rotterdam as early as 1721. I guess it wasn't just a sudden thing, but more of this slow build. There are also mentions of lodges meeting in Paris way back in the mid-1720s. According to Daniel Roche—who seems to know his stuff regarding this—Freemasonry was absolutely massive in France. Like, by 1789, we're talking maybe 100,000 Masons over there. It basically became the biggest, most popular association out of all the different Enlightenment groups floating around at the time. But, it wasn't just a Western European thing, either. Margaret Jacob points out that they had lodges active in places like Saxony by 1729 and even made their way into Russia by 1731. It really seemed to be spreading everywhere, which is kind of crazy to think about when you consider how much influence those groups eventually had.

Look, setting all those wild conspiracy theories to the side for a second, I think there’s a pretty good chance that Masonic lodges actually left a real mark on how society functions. There’s this argument made by Jacob—who, if I recall correctly, had some interesting takes—that these groups basically rebuilt the idea of a polity from the ground up. He suggests they established this entire framework for constitutional self-government, you know? We’re talking full-blown constitutions, actual laws, elections, and elected representatives. It’s like they created this tiny, organized micro-society that served as a blueprint for how the rest of the world should be run. I guess this was even more obvious over in Europe. Back when those first lodges started popping up in the 1730s, they were practically walking embodiments of British values, which probably looked pretty intimidating to the folks running the show in various governments at the time. Like, take that one lodge in Paris back in the mid-1720s—it was mostly just a bunch of English Jacobite exiles hanging out. It makes sense, really; if you're building a little model of a free society while living under a different regime, people in power are naturally going to keep a very close eye on you.

So, I was thinking about how during the 1700s, Freemasons all over Europe were basically obsessed with the whole Enlightenment vibe. It wasn't just some niche thing; it was everywhere. Like, if you look at the lodges in France, they actually had this specific line tucked into their initiation rituals—something along the lines of "In my quest to become enlightened, I seek out the enlightened." Kind of deep, right? Then you’ve got the British lodges, which seemed to take on this self-appointed mission to "initiate the unenlightened." Now, I don't think that automatically meant these guys were anti-religion or anything like that, though I guess it didn't exactly stop them from stumbling into a little bit of heresy every now and then, either. Actually, a lot of those lodges would openly praise the "Grand Architect." That was just their way of talking about the divine force behind a universe that felt, you know, scientifically organized and orderly. It’s an interesting way to bridge faith and science, I suppose.


I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the real engine behind the Enlightenment is still sort of hidden from us today. It’s like we haven't really unpacked the spiritual core of those ideas, or how much those thinkers actually changed internally to create this whole new version of humanity. They basically reshaped Western culture from the ground up, which—if you look at the massive scientific leaps and the way they eventually dominated the Muslim world—wasn't just some accidental success. If that underlying, almost mystical transformation hadn't happened, the whole story of the "Roman Empire" might have played out in a completely different way. Maybe.

I guess if you look at the sheer power of the Enlightenment, it wasn't just about people being smart. You had all these polyglots and total geniuses everywhere, and while they were definitely split into different philosophical and political camps, it wasn't just a simple debate over whether one moral or economic framework worked better than another. It felt like there was something deeper going on—almost like certain spiritual practices or specific intellectual exercises were what actually gave them the tools to reach that level of erudition in the first place. Maybe that's the part we usually overlook when we talk about the era.

You could really see how power was shifting back then, and how the Church—well, everywhere, really—would go after anyone they labeled a heretic just because they had a different perspective or a slightly different way of looking at things. I guess that kind of pressure acted like a massive nudge for all those various tight-knit groups to pack up and head across the ocean to find their own luck in America. It’s not like those folks were suddenly perfect, though. It doesn't mean those groups, or even just individuals within them, weren't also pretty combative toward other groups who held nationalist views or were just as religiously intolerant as the people they were running from. It was kind of a cycle, I suppose.

I mean, if you look at it, you could just see this whole thing as some massive shift in how citizens act or how trade dynamics start outgrowing old-school feudal structures. Or maybe it’s just about the influence and exchange coming from Islamic culture and other various groups. But honestly? I guess all of that might be nothing compared to the esoteric, "occult," or hidden knowledge that certain individuals and international circles start picking up. If you take those deep sources and weigh them against the more obvious stuff, you start seeing what actually drives the evolution of consciousness—it’s not just about the French or any one specific nation moving the needle. Maybe the people who truly embrace these values would be a nation that's willing to align itself with these emerging value systems. We're talking about a mindset that prioritizes certain intellectual or spiritual qualities as a prerequisite for belonging. It’s almost like these closed-off structures and secret agendas work through non-nepotistic ways to eventually phase out cultures or nations that just don't seem ready to adopt these new ways of thinking. It's a lot to wrap your head around, I know.

It’s kind of funny when you really stop to think about it—like, Americans claim to be this deeply religious, traditionalist bunch, right? But then you look at our money, and there's this weird, massive contradiction sitting right there on the bills. It's like we're trying to walk two different paths at once. On one hand, you have this whole identity built around being a devoutly Catholic nation, but then you turn over a dollar bill and see all these secular, Enlightenment-era thinkers staring back at you. I guess it just goes to show how messy our national identity actually is. Maybe we just like having our contradictions laid out in plain sight? I don't know, just a thought. $333 I was thinking about Antu Starčević the other day—you know, that guy who some people would label a racist depending on how you look at it—and it feels like he’s always on the verge of being forcibly assimilated into some bigger narrative. It’s kind of wild how figures like our first president can be celebrated one day and then just swept under the rug the next when they no longer fit the current vibe. Then you’ve got guys like Ban Jelačić or Strossmayer, who might have been Freemasons, much like a huge chunk of the old Austro-Canadian Empire elite probably were. But I don't think anyone is trying to frame this as some simple black-and-white struggle where it's just "the Masons" versus everyone else. Even within those Enlightenment circles, there’s plenty of internal drama and beef, I guess. It really makes me wonder about something deeper, though. Is it actually possible to grasp the achievements of certain spiritual traditions, or even figure out the foundations that these shadowy organizations behind governments and massive corporations are built upon, without accidentally becoming part of the machine yourself? Maybe it's harder than it looks.

Just as a little side note regarding the etymology here—and I guess this is just one of those fun trivia bits—back in the days of the Roman Empire, the literal translation for "bridge builder" was actually used to describe a high priest. It was even tossed around as one of the titles for a Roman Emperor. So, if you look at it that way, any terminology linked to potential Freemasonry probably isn't just about a guild of literal bricklayers or guys building cathedrals. There’s a deeper layer there, I think. And honestly, if you look back at ancient Egypt, there might be some pretty heavy connections between the craft of building and some kind of priestly code, too. Maybe.
Jeremy Alvarez5 Jeremy Alvarez5 Active MemberOP
165 messages
joined Aug 2010
#3 ·
image

So, when you look at this gold coin from that Austro-Canadian Empire ruler—you know, the guy who actually abolished serfdom and pushed for religious equality (which was probably the biggest win for Jewish communities back then, and honestly, maybe the way Jewish influence is woven into the fabric of power in the US today hints at ties stretching all the way back to that era...)—he ends up facing massive backlash. He basically gets snubbed by the soldiers, the nobility, and the church all at once. It’s pretty wild. And the imagery on the coin? You see those shapes, like light beaming out of a pyramid or a compass in the center... It’s intense. There’s this depiction of him being struck by a sword, while also holding a staff that represents legal authority over a territory bounded by currency. I guess back then, some nobles looked down on money as something "dirty," which is why they left those kinds of roles to Jewish people. Maybe all this symbolism with the glowing triangle and everything else is just how certain structures have been communicating their influence through the centuries...

Then there's the other side of things. By pushing back against various religious views on marriage and sexuality, these rulers and groups essentially carved out a space where they could enjoy their freedoms without being judged by the institutions they were bypassing. And, I suppose, they wanted that same kind of liberalism for their subjects too. But again, I should probably hedge here—there are definitely restrictions, and since we’re mostly looking at history through a narrow lens, it’s hard to draw solid conclusions. It's more about making educated guesses. I don't think there are any simple, one-size-fits-all answers to this whole saga. Still, considering these figures are basically the architects behind the transition from the Middle Ages into the modern world, I feel like they deserve a much more critical look than they usually get.

Looking at the big picture, what do you guys think? Is it possible that the Freemasons are the result of absorbing different spiritual schools—everything from Jewish Kabbalah to Islamic mysticism and all sorts of esoterica? Like, maybe that's how their hierarchy climbed the ladder to grab positions of power, eventually embedding themselves into what might be the primary governing structure of the world (if you don't count the US Presidents—alongside Russian leaders, writers, and artists, of course). I mean, it makes me wonder: is there actually another international organization out there that can hold such a diverse yet tightly knit group together? Has this ever really been researched enough? It feels like whenever someone famous comes up, their affiliation with these types of organizations is often glossed over in their biographies. Is that just because of a modern, materialistic way of looking at history, or is it more of an intentional cover-up?
jademarlin26 jademarlin26 Active Member
158 messages
joined Sep 2008
#4 ·
👍

I applaud your courage and Enlightenment spirit in opening such a topic here, especially since most active participants build their worldviews on the irrationality and superstitions of ancient mythologies. During the dawn of the Enlightenment, this was a massive hurdle; however, today we find ourselves on the opposite end of the scale, facing the lukewarm mush of an impotent liberalism and relativism. Their constant chest-thumping regarding "tolerance" and "everyone is entitled to their opinion" in their "who cares" kind of world hinders genuine progress just as much as the irrationality and superstition of the former—both of which these moderates actively sustain through their apathy. Thus, a vicious cycle of stupidity and ignorance is propagated through time, punctuated only by occasional flashes of ethics acting as manifestations of the spirit in a positive direction.

Without the quality construction of one's internal temple, any outward appearance will simply be lost to wishful thinking or unfulfilled dreams.
Jeremy Alvarez5 Jeremy Alvarez5 Active MemberOP
165 messages
joined Aug 2010
#5 ·
jademarlin26 said:👍

I applaud your courage and Enlightenment spirit in opening such a topic here, especially since most active participants build their worldviews on the irrationality and superstitions of ancient mythologies. During the dawn of the Enlightenment, this was a massive hurdle; however, today we find ourselves on the opposite end of the scale, facing the lukewarm mush of an impotent liberalism and relativism. Their constant chest-thumping regarding "tolerance" and "everyone is entitled to their opinion" in their "who cares" kind of world hinders genuine progress just as much as the irrationality and superstition of the former—both of which these moderates actively sustain through their apathy. Thus, a vicious cycle of stupidity and ignorance is propagated through time, punctuated only by occasional flashes of ethics acting as manifestations of the spirit in a positive direction.

Without the quality construction of one's internal temple, any outward appearance will simply be lost to wishful thinking or unfulfilled dreams.

I guess I look at it this way. A temple only really stands firm if its foundation is built right in the heart. To me, that means subconsciousness and conscious thought have to fuse together into something solid—kind of like reinforced steel acting as the rebar for a foundation. But man, when you look at those high-stakes geopolitical hotspots, things get messy fast. It’s like these tribal sorcerers are constantly unleashing all these different colored Trojan horses out into the open. And in the middle of all that maneuvering, where everyone's just playing a game, the individual ends up caught in the crossfire. You end up standing there like a confused calf staring at a set of brightly colored doors, totally lost to whatever color is pulling your strings.

I feel like if you look closely at the Trojan Horse of democracy and liberalism, there’s actually this rigid hierarchy and an oligarchy of clowns hiding right behind it. It's kind of wild when you think about it. First, you see this cosmopolitan movement that starts by co-opting influential figures, then moves into commercial takeover, followed by military expansion, and finally, a total legal seizure of entire territories, resources, and human potential. It’s almost like they create this massive void—this deep sense of depression caused by tearing apart all those natural identities people used to lean on. To fill that gap, they offer this illusion of self-fulfillment through work, career paths, and constant competition. I guess that illusion has to be kept alive because, for the whole system to actually function, you need just enough social stratification to maintain that old-school division between the workers, the soldiers, and the rulers. It's all part of the design, I suppose.

I guess you could say people really need to be supported in whatever direction they’re heading—whether they actually meant to go that way or not—just by giving them a little bit of hope to hold onto. It’s like, if you want someone to keep their eyes on the prize, you kind of have to keep them in this almost hypnotic state. You do that by making sure they stay constantly tuned in to those quick, sensory, short-term hits of reality. I don't know, maybe it sounds a bit intense, but it basically requires keeping things just restless enough to keep them moving.

The ruling class only stays on top because they cling to these old-school traditions—you know, that whole "white glove" kind of elitism. It’s almost like they need an enemy just to feel justified in what they do. I guess they need someone to fight against just to prove their own existence and why their position even matters in the first place. In that kind of twisted dynamic, any sacrifice made along the way ends up being totally Machiavellian, if you ask me.

It’s kind of wild when you think about it—how bringing in new talent or different people into those inner circles actually helps maintain this whole illusion of being "cosmopolitan." It feels like they try so hard to project this image of unity that transcends borders, religion, or identity, almost like they're part of some exclusive club at the top of a Platonic hierarchy. And if you play by their rules, you get rewarded with more opportunities to climb that ladder. But at the same time, there's this weird hostility toward anyone who doesn't want to fit into their specific legal or economic boxes. I mean, look at the stuff we see in our own backyard. You have alcoholics or addicts tearing their families apart, or religious leaders abusing kids in orphanages, or just general violence and the whole death penalty debate here in the States. These things happen constantly in our "civilized" society, yet they don't get nearly as much intense media scrutiny as similar crimes in other parts of the world. I guess it’s because we have a much more skilled "clownocracy" running the show. People might actually have way fewer freedoms than they realize, but we get fed enough movies and high-end art to suggest that everything is actually going great. The narrative of progress through diversity is funny to me. It’s not really driven by actual tolerance in the places where innovators from all over the globe gather to push things forward; it’s more about being intolerant toward anyone who refuses to play the game. The people in charge basically undermine the very foundation of their own pyramid. Their main goal seems to be managing the levels of dissatisfaction across the board, regardless of someone's skin color or beliefs. As long as people stay impressed by the vision of progress and are willing to serve the structure, they're good. The system spends all its time barking about fighting crime, lies, and corruption, while secretly embedding those exact things into its own DNA, mostly through cover-ups. They claim nepotism and corruption are bad, but I guess they only care about it when it threatens the corporate monopoly they've already established. It’s all very legalistic—they just tweak the laws whenever they need to. In their eyes, anyone trying to cut corners or help each other out outside of the official channels becomes "problematic," simply because it threatens the power held by those sitting in the shadows.

So, I guess the idea is that when one group protects its own cohesion, anyone trying to impose a different kind of unity—one that builds its own hierarchy regardless of the money or the name on the bill—has to be dismantled by basically devaluing those social positions and relationships through art or culture. To really shut down people who connect on totally different wavelengths, you’d have to strip away their very desire to belong to one another in the first place. You’d essentially have to wreck the foundation just to kill the will to defend the roots everyone is already standing on and building from. It’s this kind of hostile takeover, where you're carving out space in a way that's fundamentally different from the usual dialectical back-and-forth...

In this whole scenario, if you want to mess with how people perceive things and, by extension, their willpower, you absolutely have to master the dynamics and the layout of the internal temple. That knowledge acts as a weapon and a tool, something that would be kept under lock and key, hidden from actual enemies or even potential competitors until the very last second. Honestly, in a struggle like this involving Trojan horses, it might actually be more effective to "treat" those at the bottom with fake psychological tactics; sort of trying to sever the connection between the brain and the heart to create openings or hunting grounds. That way, whoever manages to sink the hook closest to the heart is the one walking away with the catch...

I still need to figure out how the mechanics of will actually function; what that internal human architecture looks like, but that’s probably a whole other conversation.
Jeremy Davis7 Jeremy Davis7 Active Member
55 messages
joined Oct 2007
#6 ·
jademarlin26;
...And so this endless cycle of stupidity and ignorance just keeps spinning through the years, with nothing but the occasional flicker of ethics acting as some sort of positive spiritual spark.

If you haven't built a solid foundation within your own inner temple, any outward progress is just going to vanish into a cloud of wishful thinking and broken dreams.

I just hope you aren't using this whole "enlightenment" angle to push some kind of "third option" on us...
You aren't trying to lead us—whether by accident or design—to the conclusion that it’s finally time for the "exhausted," "burnt out," and "lost" masses to just bow down to the leadership of those who have been quietly watching from the sidelines all this time...
That "invisible" elite that can't stand liberals OR believers (Christians or Muslims alike).

God forbid we hand over the keys to these self-appointed "guardians of the inner temple." Like we're supposed to just hand them over and shut our mouths... letting them ride us like cattle and steer us wherever they feel like?!

PS.
👍 Cheers for the topic, Paul.

The mind is a hell of a thing... if it doesn't have an anchor, it’s incredibly easy to throw it off course and mess with it!
Especially the collective mind.
At every turn, you see these subtle hints that someone, somewhere at a global level, is working tirelessly to grab the reins for themselves...

Social engineering is actually pretty straightforward;
Break the cohesion, ridicule or discredit everything that gives a mind direction or stability, then isolate that mind, make it self-centered... nudge it toward where you want it to go, and finally, use that isolated individual as fuel for your machine!
jademarlin26 jademarlin26 Active Member
158 messages
joined Sep 2008
#7 ·
Jeremy Davis7 said:jademarlin26;
...And so this endless cycle of stupidity and ignorance just keeps spinning through the years, with nothing but the occasional flicker of ethics acting as some sort of positive spiritual spark.

If you haven't built a solid foundation within your own inner temple, any outward progress is just going to vanish into a cloud of wishful thinking and broken dreams.

I just hope you aren't using this whole "enlightenment" angle to push some kind of "third option" on us...
You aren't trying to lead us—whether by accident or design—to the conclusion that it’s finally time for the "exhausted," "burnt out," and "lost" masses to just bow down to the leadership of those who have been quietly watching from the sidelines all this time...
That "invisible" elite that can't stand liberals OR believers (Christians or Muslims alike).

God forbid we hand over the keys to these self-appointed "guardians of the inner temple." Like we're supposed to just hand them over and shut our mouths... letting them ride us like cattle and steer us wherever they feel like?!

PS.
👍 Cheers for the topic, Paul.

The mind is a hell of a thing... if it doesn't have an anchor, it’s incredibly easy to throw it off course and mess with it!
Especially the collective mind.
At every turn, you see these subtle hints that someone, somewhere at a global level, is working tirelessly to grab the reins for themselves...

Social engineering is actually pretty straightforward;
Break the cohesion, ridicule or discredit everything that gives a mind direction or stability, then isolate that mind, make it self-centered... nudge it toward where you want it to go, and finally, use that isolated individual as fuel for your machine!

Your limitations are occasionally quite amusing.

Jeremy Davis7 said:jademarlin26;
...And so this endless cycle of stupidity and ignorance just keeps spinning through the years, with nothing but the occasional flicker of ethics acting as some sort of positive spiritual spark.

If you haven't built a solid foundation within your own inner temple, any outward progress is just going to vanish into a cloud of wishful thinking and broken dreams.

I just hope you aren't using this whole "enlightenment" angle to push some kind of "third option" on us...
You aren't trying to lead us—whether by accident or design—to the conclusion that it’s finally time for the "exhausted," "burnt out," and "lost" masses to just bow down to the leadership of those who have been quietly watching from the sidelines all this time...
That "invisible" elite that can't stand liberals OR believers (Christians or Muslims alike).

God forbid we hand over the keys to these self-appointed "guardians of the inner temple." Like we're supposed to just hand them over and shut our mouths... letting them ride us like cattle and steer us wherever they feel like?!

PS.
👍 Cheers for the topic, Paul.

The mind is a hell of a thing... if it doesn't have an anchor, it’s incredibly easy to throw it off course and mess with it!
Especially the collective mind.
At every turn, you see these subtle hints that someone, somewhere at a global level, is working tirelessly to grab the reins for themselves...

Social engineering is actually pretty straightforward;
Break the cohesion, ridicule or discredit everything that gives a mind direction or stability, then isolate that mind, make it self-centered... nudge it toward where you want it to go, and finally, use that isolated individual as fuel for your machine!

Drop the paranoia. This doesn't apply to you or the other conformists. Your handicap is your own crisis; perhaps you can hope for reincarnation, where you might finally "wake up" into a family and society that treats you like a human being instead of a child, rather than stripping away your right to an undefined future.
Jeremy Davis7 Jeremy Davis7 Active Member
55 messages
joined Oct 2007
#8 ·
jademarlin26;
... maybe you can count on reincarnation to finally "wake up" in a family and a circle that won't strip away your right to an undefined future by raising you like a mindless doll instead of a human being.

Lucky for you, the carpenters left you alone...

If nothing else, it makes this forum a slightly more interesting "place" to hang out.

Living life outside that bubble clearly isn't all fun and games...
I can see that from what's posted here.

PS.
Do us a favor and put some makeup on Beyoncé, since you're already "out in the world"...
(one of those ads/games aimed at "free thinkers" popping up in the sponsored link at the bottom of the screen)

😉
Carol Campbell3 Carol Campbell3 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2010
#9 ·
Jean-Jacques Rousseau once said, "An educated woman is a real whip to her husband, her kids, her friends, her staff, and the whole damn world."

but he was pretty enlightened ☕
analogstag29 analogstag29 Member
26 messages
joined Mar 2011
#10 ·
The Enlightenment thinkers represent the ultimate force and wisdom of our entire world; they always have been, and they always will be. But honestly, it goes way beyond just the famous names you find in history books. That true Enlightenment spirit is tucked away inside all sorts of people—writers, artists, painters, sculptors, musicians, even actors.

In this day and age, we need those voices more than ever before. Anyone who feels that spark of truth burning inside them really ought to nurture it and let it grow, rather than snuffing it out, no matter how difficult or costly that path might turn out to be.

The real tragedy is how that spirit gets dampened from the very beginning by parents, then school, then college, then society at large, and so on and so forth...

They basically try to convince you of the opposite. If you ask me, life really boils down to two main chapters: everything before you reach true understanding, and everything after. Once you hit that point of realization, everything else becomes secondary, more or less.

It almost feels like the current global establishment has made some sort of unspoken agreement to use every ounce of its power to make things difficult for these types of souls, trying to stop them from answering the greatest calling there is on this earth. Some people find them disruptive, but that’s nothing new under the sun; it’s always been that way. And most people? Most people just want to stay comfortable right now. Unlike the true visionaries, they're essentially just children of the moment, chasing fleeting pleasures and minor indulgences. Then, when those comforts inevitably vanish, they always find someone else to blame for it. It’s just a cycle that keeps spinning on this planet, from the dawn of time until today.

Those who carry the light of the Enlightenment were, and will always be, the light of the world. The only issue is that there are plenty of frauds running around nowadays pretending to be the real thing, but you can tell pretty quickly who's genuine and who's just an actor...
hiddenhound3 hiddenhound3 Regular
309 messages
joined Feb 2018
#11 ·
Personally, I have never held much affection for the Enlightenment; my distaste stems not from its questioning of religious dogma, but rather because it merely introduced a different kind of dogma—rationalization.

I hold a remarkably similar view regarding Maria Theresa—she served as little more than a strategic matchmaker for her daughters, ensuring that the reach of Austria extended across as much of Europe as possible. It was a profoundly rational maneuver, driven entirely by greed and a raw "will to power."

Furthermore, I find myself unconvinced by any notion of collective salvation, whether it be the spiritual promises offered by Christ or the secular ideals championed by the Enlightenment. It is difficult to quantify the exact damage the Enlightenment has inflicted upon the world, perhaps no more so than Christianity itself, but they are essentially two ends of the same rope being tightened around our necks.

As for slavery, it will never truly be eradicated, for the root issue lies in the ambivalent nature of humanity—that we possess an inherent drive to both rule and be ruled. Only when there is a fundamental shift in human consciousness—specifically, when we move past dualities and abandon the concepts of currency, power, and ownership—will the entire structure change, allowing true prosperity and happiness to surface. For the time being, such qualities are only visible in isolated individuals who remain unattached to any movement, regardless of whether they emerge from religious circles or the philosophical-scientific milieu of the Enlightenment.
hiddenhound3 hiddenhound3 Regular
309 messages
joined Feb 2018
#12 ·
analogstag29 said:The Enlightenment thinkers represent the ultimate force and wisdom of our entire world; they always have been, and they always will be. But honestly, it goes way beyond just the famous names you find in history books. That true Enlightenment spirit is tucked away inside all sorts of people—writers, artists, painters, sculptors, musicians, even actors.

In this day and age, we need those voices more than ever before. Anyone who feels that spark of truth burning inside them really ought to nurture it and let it grow, rather than snuffing it out, no matter how difficult or costly that path might turn out to be.

The real tragedy is how that spirit gets dampened from the very beginning by parents, then school, then college, then society at large, and so on and so forth...

They basically try to convince you of the opposite. If you ask me, life really boils down to two main chapters: everything before you reach true understanding, and everything after. Once you hit that point of realization, everything else becomes secondary, more or less.

It almost feels like the current global establishment has made some sort of unspoken agreement to use every ounce of its power to make things difficult for these types of souls, trying to stop them from answering the greatest calling there is on this earth. Some people find them disruptive, but that’s nothing new under the sun; it’s always been that way. And most people? Most people just want to stay comfortable right now. Unlike the true visionaries, they're essentially just children of the moment, chasing fleeting pleasures and minor indulgences. Then, when those comforts inevitably vanish, they always find someone else to blame for it. It’s just a cycle that keeps spinning on this planet, from the dawn of time until today.

Those who carry the light of the Enlightenment were, and will always be, the light of the world. The only issue is that there are plenty of frauds running around nowadays pretending to be the real thing, but you can tell pretty quickly who's genuine and who's just an actor...

I find myself in complete agreement regarding the notion that upbringing, primary schooling, and higher education serve more to dull the intellect than to enlighten it. In truth, the entire apparatus is designed to suppress one's intuition and the inherent sense of the natural order that exists within us all to varying degrees.
stormycanyon11 stormycanyon11 Member
19 messages
joined Mar 2010
#13 ·
A true educator isn't some vessel merely pouring knowledge into a student's head; rather, they are the one who skillfully draws it out from within.
Arthur Young Arthur Young Newcomer
1 message
joined Nov 2010
#14 ·
Jeremy Davis7 said:jademarlin26;
...And so this endless cycle of stupidity and ignorance just keeps spinning through the years, with nothing but the occasional flicker of ethics acting as some sort of positive spiritual spark.

If you haven't built a solid foundation within your own inner temple, any outward progress is just going to vanish into a cloud of wishful thinking and broken dreams.

I just hope you aren't using this whole "enlightenment" angle to push some kind of "third option" on us...
You aren't trying to lead us—whether by accident or design—to the conclusion that it’s finally time for the "exhausted," "burnt out," and "lost" masses to just bow down to the leadership of those who have been quietly watching from the sidelines all this time...
That "invisible" elite that can't stand liberals OR believers (Christians or Muslims alike).

God forbid we hand over the keys to these self-appointed "guardians of the inner temple." Like we're supposed to just hand them over and shut our mouths... letting them ride us like cattle and steer us wherever they feel like?!

PS.
👍 Cheers for the topic, Paul.

The mind is a hell of a thing... if it doesn't have an anchor, it’s incredibly easy to throw it off course and mess with it!
Especially the collective mind.
At every turn, you see these subtle hints that someone, somewhere at a global level, is working tirelessly to grab the reins for themselves...

Social engineering is actually pretty straightforward;
Break the cohesion, ridicule or discredit everything that gives a mind direction or stability, then isolate that mind, make it self-centered... nudge it toward where you want it to go, and finally, use that isolated individual as fuel for your machine!

And isn't it just a funny little coincidence that this invisible elite has absolutely nothing to do with that Vatican-style agenda you seem so fond of advocating? 🙄 😎
John Jones3 John Jones3 Member
37 messages
joined Nov 2010
#15 ·
The Enlightenment thinkers were essentially the era's premier critics—though most people today struggle to grasp their work because they have zero clue what was actually happening in the 18th century, let alone how to contextualize those texts within the political landscape of the time. Some of these pieces lean heavily into metaphysics or function as philosophical novels exploring spirituality. Everyone really ought to read Voltaire’s >—it’s mandatory reading that definitely sharpens the mind. For those looking for something a bit more philosophical, there's > and > as well.
John Jones3 John Jones3 Member
37 messages
joined Nov 2010
#16 ·
hiddenhound3 said:Personally, I have never held much affection for the Enlightenment; my distaste stems not from its questioning of religious dogma, but rather because it merely introduced a different kind of dogma—rationalization.

I hold a remarkably similar view regarding Maria Theresa—she served as little more than a strategic matchmaker for her daughters, ensuring that the reach of Austria extended across as much of Europe as possible. It was a profoundly rational maneuver, driven entirely by greed and a raw "will to power."

Furthermore, I find myself unconvinced by any notion of collective salvation, whether it be the spiritual promises offered by Christ or the secular ideals championed by the Enlightenment. It is difficult to quantify the exact damage the Enlightenment has inflicted upon the world, perhaps no more so than Christianity itself, but they are essentially two ends of the same rope being tightened around our necks.

As for slavery, it will never truly be eradicated, for the root issue lies in the ambivalent nature of humanity—that we possess an inherent drive to both rule and be ruled. Only when there is a fundamental shift in human consciousness—specifically, when we move past dualities and abandon the concepts of currency, power, and ownership—will the entire structure change, allowing true prosperity and happiness to surface. For the time being, such qualities are only visible in isolated individuals who remain unattached to any movement, regardless of whether they emerge from religious circles or the philosophical-scientific milieu of the Enlightenment.

Rationalism is a theory of knowledge—a philosophical school suggesting objective reality can only be grasped through thought, built entirely on the mind, reason, and intellect.
The Enlightenment is an entirely different beast; read Zadig by Voltaire and you might actually see the distinction.
hiddenhound3 hiddenhound3 Regular
309 messages
joined Feb 2018
#17 ·
John Jones3 said:Rationalism is a theory of knowledge—a philosophical school suggesting objective reality can only be grasped through thought, built entirely on the mind, reason, and intellect.
The Enlightenment is an entirely different beast; read Zadig by Voltaire and you might actually see the distinction.

Very well, let us accept your premise, though it does little to soothe my inherent skepticism regarding the Enlightenment. While I would not describe myself as a particularly religious person—truthfully, not at all—I cannot help but wonder why the gods seem so relentlessly cruel toward the mythological enlighteners, such as Eve, Prometheus, and Lucifer. What, then, truly constitutes enlightenment? Is it something we actually require? Are we even capable of handling it?

I find myself reflecting on these questions quite frequently, yet a definitive answer remains elusive. One must ask whether the widespread availability of sacred texts has contributed to the profanation of the holy. Is true knowledge and profound insight something that can be acquired instantly, or is it a pursuit reserved for a select few who were willing to renounce worldly comforts to devote themselves to the Divine?

What, in the final analysis, has the Enlightenment actually provided us that is good? 🤷
John Jones3 John Jones3 Member
37 messages
joined Nov 2010
#18 ·
hiddenhound3 said:Very well, let us accept your premise, though it does little to soothe my inherent skepticism regarding the Enlightenment. While I would not describe myself as a particularly religious person—truthfully, not at all—I cannot help but wonder why the gods seem so relentlessly cruel toward the mythological enlighteners, such as Eve, Prometheus, and Lucifer. What, then, truly constitutes enlightenment? Is it something we actually require? Are we even capable of handling it?

I find myself reflecting on these questions quite frequently, yet a definitive answer remains elusive. One must ask whether the widespread availability of sacred texts has contributed to the profanation of the holy. Is true knowledge and profound insight something that can be acquired instantly, or is it a pursuit reserved for a select few who were willing to renounce worldly comforts to devote themselves to the Divine?

What, in the final analysis, has the Enlightenment actually provided us that is good? 🤷

Enlightenment is the ultimate state of the spirit—obviously we need it, and we’re more than ready. History is full of enlightened souls who left their mark on human progress.

hiddenhound3 said:Very well, let us accept your premise, though it does little to soothe my inherent skepticism regarding the Enlightenment. While I would not describe myself as a particularly religious person—truthfully, not at all—I cannot help but wonder why the gods seem so relentlessly cruel toward the mythological enlighteners, such as Eve, Prometheus, and Lucifer. What, then, truly constitutes enlightenment? Is it something we actually require? Are we even capable of handling it?

I find myself reflecting on these questions quite frequently, yet a definitive answer remains elusive. One must ask whether the widespread availability of sacred texts has contributed to the profanation of the holy. Is true knowledge and profound insight something that can be acquired instantly, or is it a pursuit reserved for a select few who were willing to renounce worldly comforts to devote themselves to the Divine?

What, in the final analysis, has the Enlightenment actually provided us that is good? 🤷

There are two types of people: those for whom spirituality and holiness are just subjects of study—which is incredibly common nowadays since it mostly just builds the ego rather than doing the opposite—leading to forum debates about who is at a "higher level" of development, and then there are those who actually live out their spirituality and holiness. Those are the ones who will eventually reach enlightenment.

hiddenhound3 said:Very well, let us accept your premise, though it does little to soothe my inherent skepticism regarding the Enlightenment. While I would not describe myself as a particularly religious person—truthfully, not at all—I cannot help but wonder why the gods seem so relentlessly cruel toward the mythological enlighteners, such as Eve, Prometheus, and Lucifer. What, then, truly constitutes enlightenment? Is it something we actually require? Are we even capable of handling it?

I find myself reflecting on these questions quite frequently, yet a definitive answer remains elusive. One must ask whether the widespread availability of sacred texts has contributed to the profanation of the holy. Is true knowledge and profound insight something that can be acquired instantly, or is it a pursuit reserved for a select few who were willing to renounce worldly comforts to devote themselves to the Divine?

What, in the final analysis, has the Enlightenment actually provided us that is good? 🤷

Knowledge, wisdom, and enlightenment, above all else.
hiddenhound3 hiddenhound3 Regular
309 messages
joined Feb 2018
#19 ·
John Jones3 said:Enlightenment is the ultimate state of the spirit—obviously we need it, and we’re more than ready. History is full of enlightened souls who left their mark on human progress.

There are two types of people: those for whom spirituality and holiness are just subjects of study—which is incredibly common nowadays since it mostly just builds the ego rather than doing the opposite—leading to forum debates about who is at a "higher level" of development, and then there are those who actually live out their spirituality and holiness. Those are the ones who will eventually reach enlightenment.

Knowledge, wisdom, and enlightenment, above all else.


I also maintain that such enlightenment is necessary, yet I believe we are not quite prepared for it; much like you, I feel that many individuals approach this path incorrectly, though the sheer persistence they exhibit is moving and remains an absolute necessity.

However, it appears that the Age of Enlightenment failed to yield its intended fruit. One need only look around to see the destructive and apocalyptic civilization in which we currently reside—a society built upon entirely misguided and inhumane values of materialism and consumerism. It is a neurotic era, and if I may borrow the sentiment of a great American thinker, it is one characterized by cynicism toward lofty ideals, where individuals strive more to be perceived as "right" than to actually be righteous.

Slavery and witch hunts have not been eradicated; they have merely been syncopated. While the focal points and methods have shifted, the fundamental impulse to persecute and hate persists, leaving fear and demoralization to govern the world.

There are two types of people: those for whom spirituality and holiness are merely subjects of academic study—a trend that is quite prevalent today because it serves to bolster the ego rather than diminish it, leading to petty arguments even on forums about who is at a higher level of development—and then there are those who truly live their spirituality and holiness, and they will eventually achieve enlightenment.

Indeed, there are two categories of people: the enlightened and the unenlightened. Regrettably, the former constitutes a significantly smaller percentage of the population, and as for who might eventually reach enlightenment, I would not dare to make a prediction; we likely never will know.

Knowledge, wisdom, and enlightenment above all else.

Alas, there is far too much posturing on the way to getting there.
John Jones3 John Jones3 Member
37 messages
joined Nov 2010
#20 ·
hiddenhound3 said:I also maintain that such enlightenment is necessary, yet I believe we are not quite prepared for it; much like you, I feel that many individuals approach this path incorrectly, though the sheer persistence they exhibit is moving and remains an absolute necessity.

However, it appears that the Age of Enlightenment failed to yield its intended fruit. One need only look around to see the destructive and apocalyptic civilization in which we currently reside—a society built upon entirely misguided and inhumane values of materialism and consumerism. It is a neurotic era, and if I may borrow the sentiment of a great American thinker, it is one characterized by cynicism toward lofty ideals, where individuals strive more to be perceived as "right" than to actually be righteous.

Slavery and witch hunts have not been eradicated; they have merely been syncopated. While the focal points and methods have shifted, the fundamental impulse to persecute and hate persists, leaving fear and demoralization to govern the world.

There are two types of people: those for whom spirituality and holiness are merely subjects of academic study—a trend that is quite prevalent today because it serves to bolster the ego rather than diminish it, leading to petty arguments even on forums about who is at a higher level of development—and then there are those who truly live their spirituality and holiness, and they will eventually achieve enlightenment.

Indeed, there are two categories of people: the enlightened and the unenlightened. Regrettably, the former constitutes a significantly smaller percentage of the population, and as for who might eventually reach enlightenment, I would not dare to make a prediction; we likely never will know.

Knowledge, wisdom, and enlightenment above all else.

Alas, there is far too much posturing on the way to getting there.

Not really—I consider myself enlightened, and I haven't "ridden" anywhere.

Modern society is exactly what you described, but global peace and stability could actually stem from mass enlightenment. Just striving and devouring spiritual books is worlds apart from actually living it—that’s where people trip up—too much reading and not enough actual work on oneself. That seems to be the core issue today.

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