The truth in a world full of lies!!!

Paul Jones7 said:hm

Now, me? I'm pretty sure—even though, as you know, I'm not much of a reader and haven't picked up many spiritual books—that there are plenty of enlightened people who claim the exact opposite: that free will exists. Does that strike you as odd? I mean, is an enlightened person someone who supposedly knows everything?

I’d say that’s just impossible. Nobody on this planet knows everything, and they never will, mostly because it just isn't compatible with this level of existence. And if they don't know everything, then there's another possibility, which I think is actually quite common: that even the concepts held by enlightened beings simply aren't entirely accurate sometimes.

And occasionally, as in the case of the man you were quoting, I’d personally say he knew more than he let on. He might have intentionally held back just to guide his students in the direction he wanted them to go—thinking that revealing everything he knew would be way too confusing and would just scatter their focus everywhere.

From that contradiction, I get the sense that he’s silently admitting free will exists, but he just didn't want to say it outright. His entire school of thought is built on non-attachment, transparency, and accepting life exactly as it is. He recognizes that this is the path toward the exit and enlightenment.

But that brings up the next question, which is the same one you'd ask about Christianity or any other tradition: okay, so that's one school of thought; but is it the *only* one? Is it the only way, the only path to enlightenment?

I honestly doubt it. Even though I don't see much, I still see a world full of different possibilities all around me.

Fair enough. So, do you have a recipe for achieving that kind of insight? Have you ever had an insight like that regarding this topic?

It always seems to me that it's just as easy to have the illusion of insight. The personality just steps in in such a way that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell what was a genuine insight and what was just... well, everything else.

I’d say that’s just impossible. No one on this planet knows everything—and honestly, nobody ever will. It simply isn't compatible with our current level of existence. And if we don't have all the answers, there's another possibility that I think is actually quite common: even the concepts held by the enlightened aren't always entirely accurate.

From one contradiction, I can conclude that he’s silently admitting free will exists. He just isn't ready to say it out loud, because the school he represents is built on non-resistance, transparency, and simply accepting life exactly as it is. To him, acknowledging that is the only way to reach the exit—to find true enlightenment.

That just brings up the next big question, doesn't it? It’s the same dilemma you run into with Christianity or any other path: okay, so this is a school of thought; but is it the *only* school? Is it the one and only way, the solitary path to enlightenment?

I honestly have my doubts. Even if I can't see everything laid out clearly, I still see nothing but endless possibilities all around me.

Excellent. Do you have a recipe for achieving insight? And have you personally experienced such an insight regarding this topic?

It always seems to me that having an illusion of insight is just as easy as having actual insight. Personality gets involved in such a way that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell exactly what was a true realization and what was just everything else playing tricks on you.

Sandra Morgan2 said:He knows who he is. That's more than enough.

I’d say that’s just impossible. No one on this planet knows everything—and honestly, nobody ever will. It simply isn't compatible with our current level of existence. And if we don't have all the answers, there's another possibility that I think is actually quite common: even the concepts held by the enlightened aren't always entirely accurate.

Pro-enlightenment... hmm.

"Be a light unto yourself. Be your own confidence. Hold to the truth within, as to the only truth." Buddha Quote

From one contradiction, I can conclude that he’s silently admitting free will exists. He just isn't ready to say it out loud, because the school he represents is built on non-resistance, transparency, and simply accepting life exactly as it is. To him, acknowledging that is the only way to reach the exit—to find true enlightenment.

It’s not quite like that. He clearly states that it doesn't exist; if he actually believed or knew the opposite were true, he'd be a liar. Beyond that, he was a free agent—he didn't belong to any specific school of thought. He just worked a regular job, selling tobacco at a corner bodega.

That just brings up the next big question, doesn't it? It’s the same dilemma you run into with Christianity or any other path: okay, so this is a school of thought; but is it the *only* school? Is it the one and only way, the solitary path to enlightenment?

I honestly have my doubts. Even if I can't see everything laid out clearly, I still see nothing but endless possibilities all around me.

Exactly. You're spot on... It’s even more diverse than that. Everyone has their own unique path to follow.

Excellent. Do you have a recipe for achieving insight? And have you personally experienced such an insight regarding this topic?

It always seems to me that having an illusion of insight is just as easy as having actual insight. Personality gets involved in such a way that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell exactly what was a true realization and what was just everything else playing tricks on you.

You bet! 🙂 Let me tell you—I hadn't even finished my second sentence before you jumped in to suggest my insight might just be an illusion! 🙂

You’re doubting, you’re doubting, Paul Jones7...
👍
That's a fantastic starting point,
it'll take you way further than just faith alone
🙂

Sandra Morgan2 said:He knows who he is. That's more than enough.

I’d say that’s just impossible. No one on this planet knows everything—and honestly, nobody ever will. It simply isn't compatible with our current level of existence. And if we don't have all the answers, there's another possibility that I think is actually quite common: even the concepts held by the enlightened aren't always entirely accurate.

Pro-enlightenment... hmm.

"Be a light unto yourself. Be your own confidence. Hold to the truth within, as to the only truth." Buddha Quote

From one contradiction, I can conclude that he’s silently admitting free will exists. He just isn't ready to say it out loud, because the school he represents is built on non-resistance, transparency, and simply accepting life exactly as it is. To him, acknowledging that is the only way to reach the exit—to find true enlightenment.

It’s not quite like that. He clearly states that it doesn't exist; if he actually believed or knew the opposite were true, he'd be a liar. Beyond that, he was a free agent—he didn't belong to any specific school of thought. He just worked a regular job, selling tobacco at a corner bodega.

That just brings up the next big question, doesn't it? It’s the same dilemma you run into with Christianity or any other path: okay, so this is a school of thought; but is it the *only* school? Is it the one and only way, the solitary path to enlightenment?

I honestly have my doubts. Even if I can't see everything laid out clearly, I still see nothing but endless possibilities all around me.

Exactly. You're spot on... It’s even more diverse than that. Everyone has their own unique path to follow.

Excellent. Do you have a recipe for achieving insight? And have you personally experienced such an insight regarding this topic?

It always seems to me that having an illusion of insight is just as easy as having actual insight. Personality gets involved in such a way that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell exactly what was a true realization and what was just everything else playing tricks on you.

You bet! 🙂 Let me tell you—I hadn't even finished my second sentence before you jumped in to suggest my insight might just be an illusion! 🙂

You’re doubting, you’re doubting, Paul Jones7...
👍
That's a fantastic starting point,
it'll take you way further than just faith alone
🙂

Sandra Morgan2 said:He knows who he is. That's more than enough.

I’d say that’s just impossible. No one on this planet knows everything—and honestly, nobody ever will. It simply isn't compatible with our current level of existence. And if we don't have all the answers, there's another possibility that I think is actually quite common: even the concepts held by the enlightened aren't always entirely accurate.

Pro-enlightenment... hmm.

"Be a light unto yourself. Be your own confidence. Hold to the truth within, as to the only truth." Buddha Quote

From one contradiction, I can conclude that he’s silently admitting free will exists. He just isn't ready to say it out loud, because the school he represents is built on non-resistance, transparency, and simply accepting life exactly as it is. To him, acknowledging that is the only way to reach the exit—to find true enlightenment.

It’s not quite like that. He clearly states that it doesn't exist; if he actually believed or knew the opposite were true, he'd be a liar. Beyond that, he was a free agent—he didn't belong to any specific school of thought. He just worked a regular job, selling tobacco at a corner bodega.

That just brings up the next big question, doesn't it? It’s the same dilemma you run into with Christianity or any other path: okay, so this is a school of thought; but is it the *only* school? Is it the one and only way, the solitary path to enlightenment?

I honestly have my doubts. Even if I can't see everything laid out clearly, I still see nothing but endless possibilities all around me.

Exactly. You're spot on... It’s even more diverse than that. Everyone has their own unique path to follow.

Excellent. Do you have a recipe for achieving insight? And have you personally experienced such an insight regarding this topic?

It always seems to me that having an illusion of insight is just as easy as having actual insight. Personality gets involved in such a way that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell exactly what was a true realization and what was just everything else playing tricks on you.

You bet! 🙂 Let me tell you—I hadn't even finished my second sentence before you jumped in to suggest my insight might just be an illusion! 🙂

You’re doubting, you’re doubting, Paul Jones7...
👍
That's a fantastic starting point,
it'll take you way further than just faith alone
🙂

wearyrider16 said: 🤷 Can someone help me understand? ...why all this heavy philosophizing if everything is already laid out for us. Why bother acting smart or making up some personal version of "truth" when the truth is right there in front of us. It was revealed through someone who provided perfect wisdom and teachings that are easy to grasp—but only for those with an honest heart. For a heart like that, the truth just sticks! 🙂 ?? All we have to do is accept it and embrace it!!! Honestly, one wise and perfect man, even though he was rejected by many, once said: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me (Jesus Christ). Why is that so hard to swallow?? Who does it bother so much, and what part is unclear that everyone feels entitled to invent their own version of a shared truth??? Maybe it's just to impress others with how much they know?? Or maybe people are just disappointed in those meant to carry the message??? Or what?? Truth can only be one thing. It’s simple. You don't need a PhD to find it!!! Without truth, there is no real path, and without the right path, there is no life!!! 😉 Btw, I'm not claiming these words as my own. I realized this while studying the life of Jesus Christ!! 🙂 + On our own, with our limited abilities, we can't truly know God or the truth about ourselves. We need humility, heart, and the spirit of wisdom that God provides!!! 🙂 Your forum friend wearyrider16!!! 👍

wearyrider16 said: 🤷 Can someone help me understand? ...why all this heavy philosophizing if everything is already laid out for us. Why bother acting smart or making up some personal version of "truth" when the truth is right there in front of us. It was revealed through someone who provided perfect wisdom and teachings that are easy to grasp—but only for those with an honest heart. For a heart like that, the truth just sticks! 🙂 ?? All we have to do is accept it and embrace it!!! Honestly, one wise and perfect man, even though he was rejected by many, once said: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me (Jesus Christ). Why is that so hard to swallow?? Who does it bother so much, and what part is unclear that everyone feels entitled to invent their own version of a shared truth??? Maybe it's just to impress others with how much they know?? Or maybe people are just disappointed in those meant to carry the message??? Or what?? Truth can only be one thing. It’s simple. You don't need a PhD to find it!!! Without truth, there is no real path, and without the right path, there is no life!!! 😉 Btw, I'm not claiming these words as my own. I realized this while studying the life of Jesus Christ!! 🙂 + On our own, with our limited abilities, we can't truly know God or the truth about ourselves. We need humility, heart, and the spirit of wisdom that God provides!!! 🙂 Your forum friend wearyrider16!!! 👍

wearyowl29 said:That's great for you👍 but honestly? You've just embraced one specific version of "truth" because it happens to fit your own personal criteria perfectly. It’s easy when things align! But others don't see it that way. They don't have that ready-made humble heart to just accept an answer; instead, they're out there searching, clawing through life with nothing but their bare teeth...

wearyrider16;29043039 said:..

Countless truths?? Where on earth are you getting that from?? Isn't there just one single truth?

Well, look, there are plenty of truths on this planet, and every single one of them is true.😂

They only have partial insight.

In an imperfect world populated by imperfect beings, people possess imperfect insight—and consequently, they hold imperfect truths.

Take this, for instance: because so many people don't actually know the Truth, they end up inventing their own little rulebooks for how to act and live. Of course, the culture someone is born into and raised in plays a massive role in that! So, what do we end up with? Total chaos. We see massive divides in morality, spirituality, and ethics. It feels like everything goes, everyone thinks they're right, and everybody tries to play God!! In an environment like that, conflict, division, intolerance, injustice, unrest, hatred, and even full-blown wars become just part of our daily routine!! ... and all of this happens simply because everyone is setting their own personal standards and criteria... proudly trampling over the actual Truth because they don't even realize it exists!!

Just throw a little bit of seasoning on top of that, and you've got religion—where every single group claims they hold the exclusive Truth and is more than ready to "defend" it by forcing it on everyone else...

wearyowl29;29043358 said:

wearyrider16 said:..countless truths?? Where is that coming from?? Isn't there just one truth? Also, plenty of people form their own insights or opinions based on the facts they happen to know, so they call that "their truth," but that doesn't make it an absolute reality. They only have a partial understanding. For instance, because so many people don't actually know the truth, they end up creating their own little sets of rules and standards for how to live. The culture someone is born into and raised in definitely plays a part in that too. The result? Total chaos and a massive disconnect in our morals, spirituality, and ethics. Everything goes, everyone thinks they're right, and everybody starts acting like they're God!! In a world like that, conflict, division, intolerance, injustice, unrest, hatred—even wars—just become part of our daily lives!! ...and all of this happens simply because everyone sets their own demands and criteria... proudly trampling over the truth they don't even recognize!!

That’s exactly why we need a "perfect being"—our Creator—to set the standards and rules for us to live by. That way, we’d all be using the same compass in life. It’s the only logical solution. Honestly, there's no use looking to us "imperfect" folks for answers! But hey, we think we're pretty important, don't we? We're smart enough to just get in our own way and destroy ourselves. 👏 👏

Brenda Cook4 said:First off, you don't need to write it all in caps; we can see it and read it just fine.

Now, for the answer: it might feel like everything is "given and revealed" to you, but it doesn't work that way for everyone. In fact, many people don't even consider the things you're talking about to be factual—to them, it's just unfounded, somewhat tedious, secondary rationalization of these philosophical questions.

wearyrider16 said:That’s exactly why we need a "perfect being"—our Creator—to set the standards and rules for us to live by. That way, we’d all be using the same compass in life. It’s the only logical solution. Honestly, there's no use looking to us "imperfect" folks for answers! But hey, we think we're pretty important, don't we? We're smart enough to just get in our own way and destroy ourselves. 👏 👏

wearyrider16 said:That’s exactly why we need a "perfect being"—our Creator—to set the standards and rules for us to live by. That way, we’d all be using the same compass in life. It’s the only logical solution. Honestly, there's no use looking to us "imperfect" folks for answers! But hey, we think we're pretty important, don't we? We're smart enough to just get in our own way and destroy ourselves. 👏 👏

Dennis Moore4 said:Spirit governs matter; matter doesn't govern matter.

Matter isn't evil by its own nature—it's about how it’s being handled.

And there are plenty of different ways to handle things...
That's where both good and evil are born within the spiritual realm.

boldsailor32 said:

wearyowl29 said:

Paul Jones7 said:Do I really need to go hunting for quotes from people considered enlightened—people who actually believe in free will—just to prove my point?

As far as I know, Gurdjieff was a firm believer in free will himself.

So, what’s the rebuttal there? That your chosen icons aren't enlightened, but mine are? I guess we could go down that road if you want.

I pointed out a contradiction in what was being said, and you actually agreed that the contradiction exists. So, can you explain it?

Look, I'm not enlightened—we both know that. But I don't just doubt myself; I doubt everyone else, too. After all, how much can you really know about me? I'm certainly not claiming to hold the ultimate truth... and I doubt everyone else even more than I doubt myself.😉

By the way, you might want to notice how sensitive you're getting about this topic—it kind of suggests that you're doubting, too.

As far as I know, Gurdjieff definitely believed in free will.

So what are you going to say to that? That your people aren't enlightened, but mine are?

I pointed out a contradiction in his teaching, and you agreed there was one. Can you explain it?

Sandra Morgan2 said:Look for quotes or don't—it's all predestined anyway...

As far as I know, Gurdjieff definitely believed in free will.

Nope... Gurdjieff believed (though maybe he didn't realize it) that almost everyone is just a mechanical repetition of patterns. They aren't free at all; they have no will and are essentially machines. He even believed most people lack a soul. He thought only certain individuals possess a soul, but only as a tiny seed. If they don't cultivate it, they remain mere machines. Beyond that, he said this:

Free will is The function of The master within US (Master in US is pure consciousness). Our ‘will’ is simply the supremacy of one desire over another.

In other words, human will is just the shifting of desires, and we don't choose those desires—we are conditioned by them. In this context, "will" is used substantively.

So what are you going to say to that? That your people aren't enlightened, but mine are?

I've said what I had to say regarding Gurdjieff. Bring up something else and I'll respond to that, or I won't respond at all. Sandra Morgan2 is spontaneous.

I pointed out a contradiction in his teaching, and you agreed there was one. Can you explain it?

Paul Jones7 — YOU DON'T EXIST

Within the boundaries of your body, there is NO ONE.
The ego is a mental fabrication.

You don't exist, Paul Jones7.
Personality is an illusion.

Even your body isn't what it seems.
It is all a dream.
And everything around you is just a dream.
A very, very convincing illusion.

You are a dreamed, non-existent being
in a divine dream
of separate existence.

If you don't exist,
if a separate personality doesn't exist,
then how can a dreamed character—which doesn't exist—
how can anything that doesn't exist

have any freedom at all, let alone the freedom to act on its own will?...

Freedom and free will belong to the one who dreams.
And that one is the only thing that is real.
And the dreamer, who is the reality,
is pure consciousness itself.

That is YOU.

Sandra Morgan2 said:Look for quotes or don't—it's all predestined anyway...

As far as I know, Gurdjieff definitely believed in free will.

Nope... Gurdjieff believed (though maybe he didn't realize it) that almost everyone is just a mechanical repetition of patterns. They aren't free at all; they have no will and are essentially machines. He even believed most people lack a soul. He thought only certain individuals possess a soul, but only as a tiny seed. If they don't cultivate it, they remain mere machines. Beyond that, he said this:

Free will is The function of The master within US (Master in US is pure consciousness). Our ‘will’ is simply the supremacy of one desire over another.

In other words, human will is just the shifting of desires, and we don't choose those desires—we are conditioned by them. In this context, "will" is used substantively.

So what are you going to say to that? That your people aren't enlightened, but mine are?

I've said what I had to say regarding Gurdjieff. Bring up something else and I'll respond to that, or I won't respond at all. Sandra Morgan2 is spontaneous.

I pointed out a contradiction in his teaching, and you agreed there was one. Can you explain it?

Paul Jones7 — YOU DON'T EXIST

Within the boundaries of your body, there is NO ONE.
The ego is a mental fabrication.

You don't exist, Paul Jones7.
Personality is an illusion.

Even your body isn't what it seems.
It is all a dream.
And everything around you is just a dream.
A very, very convincing illusion.

You are a dreamed, non-existent being
in a divine dream
of separate existence.

If you don't exist,
if a separate personality doesn't exist,
then how can a dreamed character—which doesn't exist—
how can anything that doesn't exist

have any freedom at all, let alone the freedom to act on its own will?...

Freedom and free will belong to the one who dreams.
And that one is the only thing that is real.
And the dreamer, who is the reality,
is pure consciousness itself.

That is YOU.

Sandra Morgan2 said:Look for quotes or don't—it's all predestined anyway...

As far as I know, Gurdjieff definitely believed in free will.

Nope... Gurdjieff believed (though maybe he didn't realize it) that almost everyone is just a mechanical repetition of patterns. They aren't free at all; they have no will and are essentially machines. He even believed most people lack a soul. He thought only certain individuals possess a soul, but only as a tiny seed. If they don't cultivate it, they remain mere machines. Beyond that, he said this:

Free will is The function of The master within US (Master in US is pure consciousness). Our ‘will’ is simply the supremacy of one desire over another.

In other words, human will is just the shifting of desires, and we don't choose those desires—we are conditioned by them. In this context, "will" is used substantively.

So what are you going to say to that? That your people aren't enlightened, but mine are?

I've said what I had to say regarding Gurdjieff. Bring up something else and I'll respond to that, or I won't respond at all. Sandra Morgan2 is spontaneous.

I pointed out a contradiction in his teaching, and you agreed there was one. Can you explain it?

Paul Jones7 — YOU DON'T EXIST

Within the boundaries of your body, there is NO ONE.
The ego is a mental fabrication.

You don't exist, Paul Jones7.
Personality is an illusion.

Even your body isn't what it seems.
It is all a dream.
And everything around you is just a dream.
A very, very convincing illusion.

You are a dreamed, non-existent being
in a divine dream
of separate existence.

If you don't exist,
if a separate personality doesn't exist,
then how can a dreamed character—which doesn't exist—
how can anything that doesn't exist

have any freedom at all, let alone the freedom to act on its own will?...

Freedom and free will belong to the one who dreams.
And that one is the only thing that is real.
And the dreamer, who is the reality,
is pure consciousness itself.

That is YOU.

Paul Jones7 said:There is a massive difference between saying people barely possess free will as they currently are, and claiming that free will doesn't exist at all or that a human can't express even a shred of it. Do you think Gurdjieff considered himself to be a machine without free will?

Free will exists, it's just not present in everyone. And even in those who do have it, there's very little of it—which is the real joke. But to say it doesn't exist at all is a huge misconception. This life wouldn't make any sense if the personality couldn't reach reality, its own essence, its true will. The whole game would be pointless—all this maya and samsara. But there is a purpose here. These patterns aren't just loops; tucked inside them is the potential for truth. Call it whatever you want.

I get the picture of the personality and what it is compared to the true existence of the soul. But like I wrote before, if the personality had no potential to reach reality, this kind of life wouldn't even exist. Everything that exists has a purpose, including this mode of existence. And no one in this world could tell me otherwise, because through all my own experience, I'm convinced of the meaningfulness of this life. This life isn't (just) a dream; it's a riddle waiting to be solved. It's a riddle specifically for the personality to solve, because it's the personality's turn to play.

Sandra Morgan2 said:

Once consciousness
starts waking up, it will definitely awaken.

Because the time for awakening has arrived.

In the meantime, the ego will feel like it is
taking steps and traveling along some sort of path
striving toward a desired goal.

While in reality,

a flower unfolds its petals all on its own.

Or let me put it more gently:

When everything within you yearns for the Beloved,
rest assured that the Beloved also yearns
to find herself within you.
Her unquenchable longing
will slowly consume you,
until, held in her embrace,
you finally come to an end once and for all.

Ugh... sorry... that wasn't very gentle again.
🙂

I gave you a fair warning to stop this conversation, because if we dive into the whole existence vs. non-existence of free will, we’re just going to end up in nonsense territory. That's enough to drive the ego absolutely insane!

Even with all your skepticism, you haven't doubted the meaning yet...
In fact, you'll probably turn your head away from that doubt entirely.
Hell, you might even get angry at Sandra Morgan2!