The truth in a world full of lies!!!

wearyrider16 said:True, but that being never actually shows up... so instead, we go ahead and manufacture our own gods in his or her name. We create these beings and then claim they hold all the authority. It's how we invent these rigid codes of conduct and pretend they carry divine weight.

And what do we get out of it? _T R U T H_... except it's a truth we manufactured ourselves.🙏

So here we are, still imperfect, serving equally flawed gods, but now we have entire ideologies designed to make us even more intolerant and dishonest.

BRAVO to us!

wearyrider16 said:True, but that being never actually shows up... so instead, we go ahead and manufacture our own gods in his or her name. We create these beings and then claim they hold all the authority. It's how we invent these rigid codes of conduct and pretend they carry divine weight.

And what do we get out of it? _T R U T H_... except it's a truth we manufactured ourselves.🙏

So here we are, still imperfect, serving equally flawed gods, but now we have entire ideologies designed to make us even more intolerant and dishonest.

BRAVO to us!

wearyrider16;29039466 said:...Basically, a man who was despised and rejected by everyone, yet wise and perfect, once said this: I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (Jesus Christ). Why does that bother people so much, and what is so unclear about it that everyone feels entitled to cook up some new version of a "shared" truth??? There can only be one Truth.... QUOTE]

You’ve shared plenty of wisdom there, quoting passages from the Bible and speaking quite eloquently, but still...
it feels a bit like you're just circling the pot, hesitant to commit, and it gives me the impression that you've actually aligned yourself with a specific religion—I'm half-expecting you to tell us in your next post that you're a Jehovah's Witness and that your specific brand of truth is the only one that matters. Don't you think it's about time you just came out and said which side you're on? It would certainly make things easier for all of us when we communicate. Best to everyone.

Sandra Morgan2 said:

Once consciousness
starts waking up, it will definitely awaken.

Because the time for awakening has arrived.

In the meantime, the ego will feel like it is
taking steps and traveling along some sort of path
striving toward a desired goal.

While in reality,

a flower unfolds its petals all on its own.

Or let me put it more gently:

When everything within you yearns for the Beloved,
rest assured that the Beloved also yearns
to find herself within you.
Her unquenchable longing
will slowly consume you,
until, held in her embrace,
you finally come to an end once and for all.

Ugh... sorry... that wasn't very gentle again.
🙂

I gave you a fair warning to stop this conversation, because if we dive into the whole existence vs. non-existence of free will, we’re just going to end up in nonsense territory. That's enough to drive the ego absolutely insane!

Even with all your skepticism, you haven't doubted the meaning yet...
In fact, you'll probably turn your head away from that doubt entirely.
Hell, you might even get angry at Sandra Morgan2!

casualtiger2 said:To me, the way you write—which is so far from the "truth" (you could tell that from the very first post)—actually makes my eyes ache while I'm reading. Honestly, it feels like just more "lies," which is funny considering how much you claim to fight against them.
What a waste of digital ink.
Look, I know making distinctions isn't always popular (and I rarely do it myself), but your writing comes across like someone who's a complete spiritual novice—and one with a pretty dogmatic, religious bent at that.

Luckily, we still have Sandra Morgan2, wearyowl29, and Witch around... so even when the topic misses the mark, there are enough gems here to make this thread worth sticking around for.

PS
Sorry, but I had to say it (since everyone else is being so incredibly understanding), even though I know you won't take a single word of this to heart.

Paul Jones7 said:Nobody ever sat me down to teach me about meaning, nor did I find some manual for it—I just noticed it. It’s everywhere. I don't really see any reason to doubt that, unless someone actually gives me a reason to start questioning things. In the meantime, I guess I'll just choose faith over doubt, while keeping my eyes peeled for whatever experiences come my way next.

I don't know, Sandra Morgan2, I'm just not convinced. This whole thing you're saying feels a bit archaic—no matter how much poetic flair you wrap it in, it sounds like you've latched onto some Buddhist perspective a little too tightly... what I'm reading from you feels more like a lecture. And honestly, there’s probably no point in dragging this conversation further because we are clearly looking at this from completely different angles. If you want to believe that your insight has handed you the ultimate truth and that you just *know*... well, go ahead and keep believing. It's your free will. Or your pattern. Whatever. I'm not angry, I just don't buy it, and that's that.

Gurdjieff said:Will, when you look at it through this lens, is really just a specific blend of certain highly refined qualities found in someone actually capable of taking action. Will is basically a hallmark of a being operating at a much higher level of existence than your average person. Only people who possess that kind of essence can truly "do." Everyone else? They’re mostly just automata—kind of like little clockwork toys or machines being pushed around by outside forces, running only as long as their internal spring stays wound, without any ability to add any extra power of their own. So, the teaching I'm touching on here acknowledges massive potential in humanity—way more than what modern science usually gives us credit for—but it doesn't grant anyone much credit for actual independence or true will in their current state.

Kimberly Mitchell42 said:It seems everyone here is hunting for the truth, yet hardly anyone is actually getting close to it. If you want my advice—or rather, if you just want to hear the ultimate truth—listen closely. I’ll keep it brief and straightforward, without dragging any religious dogma into the conversation.

wearyrider16;29058277 said:

Religion is just a facade, a hollow shell used to manipulate the masses for selfish gain. To those who are truly pure—real believers who live their truth through their actions and mirror the Divine within us—it’s essentially worthless.

But do all these "true believers" actually agree on the core message behind all these different religions?

Look, let's be honest: everyone here on this forum shares the exact same drive right now—the desire to convince others that our specific perspective is the right one.

Not exactly everyone, though! A huge number of believers act like missionaries, but only a tiny handful actually try to get people to think for themselves or question the core tenets of their faith.

I am speaking from what is written in humanity's most ancient text—the Bible. This comes after an exhaustive search for truth through a sea of sacred writings—Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism... and even the revealed works of various "enlightened" souls.

The Bible isn't even the oldest book out there...

After putting in the actual work to hunt for the truth and comparing them all, I concluded that everything is distilled within the person of Jesus Christ. He embodies the answers that other spiritual giants have only just begun to touch upon.

That sounds wonderful... you've got Jesus, so life isn't boring. You've found your way.

It is all so simple yet so profound, infused with sincere love in every single aspect of His teaching and life. It was all validated by the most selfless sacrifice imaginable for every lost soul hungry for LIBERATION—for TRUTH.

Sounds idyllic... but is it actually true???

Much love, wearyrider16. ...(

And we love you too!😍

Sandra Morgan2 said:@Paul Jones7,

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." - Einstein

If everything is actually unfolding simultaneously, then maybe everything is predetermined—the future is already right here, we just can't see it yet.

Regarding that quote, I've come across texts with the exact same sentiment—that those grounded in pure consciousness, truly enlightened people, possess free will. Since pure consciousness and God are synonymous, that brings us back to divine will... It’s possible that’s the very factor you're talking about that can change the future, but if it has already unfolded because everything happens at once, then even that isn't possible. Or maybe it is? ... I don't know...

They say the Sankalpa (will) of an enlightened being is identical to God's... An enlightened person's Sankalpa is instantaneous; whatever they direct their will toward manifests immediately.

So there is hope 🙂 .... But never for an ordinary human acting from the ego. The ego has to vanish first—or rather, the identification with it, that whole mechanism of clinging to a false self, must disappear. Only pure consciousness should remain within the body... Or so they say... 🙂

I doubt there are any gradations where a slightly more awakened consciousness automatically translates to a little bit of free will...

Sandra Morgan2 said:@Paul Jones7,

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." - Einstein

If everything is actually unfolding simultaneously, then maybe everything is predetermined—the future is already right here, we just can't see it yet.

Regarding that quote, I've come across texts with the exact same sentiment—that those grounded in pure consciousness, truly enlightened people, possess free will. Since pure consciousness and God are synonymous, that brings us back to divine will... It’s possible that’s the very factor you're talking about that can change the future, but if it has already unfolded because everything happens at once, then even that isn't possible. Or maybe it is? ... I don't know...

They say the Sankalpa (will) of an enlightened being is identical to God's... An enlightened person's Sankalpa is instantaneous; whatever they direct their will toward manifests immediately.

So there is hope 🙂 .... But never for an ordinary human acting from the ego. The ego has to vanish first—or rather, the identification with it, that whole mechanism of clinging to a false self, must disappear. Only pure consciousness should remain within the body... Or so they say... 🙂

I doubt there are any gradations where a slightly more awakened consciousness automatically translates to a little bit of free will...

Paul Jones7 said:That would be one way to look at it—an explanation that somehow lets free will exist while still maintaining that the future is already set in stone and closed off. I guess it’s a bit of a paradox, isn't it? But maybe there's a way to bridge that gap... though I'm probably overthinking it.

But then again—if the future is already just sitting there waiting for us and we’re simply too blind to see it—that doesn't really account for why none of those people who claim to "see" the future ever get it exactly right. Not even close. I mean, it might make more sense if we looked at it through a causal model of the present. Think of it like this: right now, the future is essentially a movie that’s already been filmed—it has a specific script, a certain flow. But there’s this underlying dynamic, maybe a bit of built-in indeterminacy, that can actually shift the entire causal structure of what's to come. And honestly, I think that's where free will fits in—as that one variable capable of throwing a wrench in the works. So, if everything stays static, sure, we know exactly how the story ends. But if things change... well, that's where it gets interesting.

Besides, I don't think humans even have to be the sole architects of what comes next. I mean, if there’s some kind of food chain operating above us—something much larger than any one individual—then there are probably forces out there trying to map out our future with total precision. It's almost like we've been assigned a specific role, much like how we decide the fate of animals here on Earth. But then again, maybe it isn't all bad... humanity might just have its own set of allies working behind the scenes, people fighting to make sure we actually get to live out the rights God intended for us.

I think the core difference between our perspectives lies in what you just said in that last bit—it’s about how we view enlightenment. See, I don't really see it as this sudden, massive leap... like, poof, you weren't enlightened a second ago and now suddenly you are. That feels a bit off to me. I tend to view it more as a long, winding process—a journey, if you will. Sure, maybe there is one final, massive jump at the very end when everything finally clicks into place, but the actual results start showing up way before that. They begin to build and grow as you steadily move toward that ultimate state. If my take on this is actually right—and I guess it might be—then it means people like you, or even me, can actually become... well, slightly enlightened along the way. Which, I suppose, gives us all a little bit of free will to work with.

It seems to me like most people don't have any of that at all—though I suppose there are a few folks out there who are starting to open up just a little bit. They aren't quite total automatons; they actually seem to have a tiny spark of their true selves buried somewhere in their personality, if you catch my drift.

But look, if the future is just sitting there right in front of us and we're simply blind to it, that still doesn't explain one thing: why hasn't a single person who claims to see the future ever been 100% spot on?

There’s definitely a certain dynamic at play here.There’s this inherent slice of uncertainty baked into the future—a variable that can actually shift the entire causal model of what's to come. To me, that’s exactly where free will steps in. It’s the catalyst for change. If everything stays exactly on its current trajectory, then yeah, we already know how the story ends. But if we don't...? That's where things get interesting.

Look, humans aren't necessarily the sole architects of what's coming next. If there’s a food chain positioned above us, then there are certainly forces out there working to dictate our destiny—just like we decide the fate of animals on this planet. But on the flip side, humanity isn't alone. We have our own allies fighting to ensure we actually fulfill the rights God gave us.

Here’s where we differ: what you just said in that last point. I don’t view enlightenment as some sudden, overnight leap—as if you weren't enlightened at all, and then *poof*, suddenly you are. No. It’s a process. A journey. Sure, there might be one final breakthrough at the very end when everything finally clicks open, but the results start manifesting long before that jump happens. They grow steadily as a person moves toward that ultimate state. If my perspective holds water, it means people like you or me can actually become—just a little bit—enlightened. And that implies we possess a tiny bit of free will, too.

It seems like most people have absolutely nothing of this. However, I’m starting to see a few individuals beginning to open up—people who aren't just mindless automatons, but actually possess a tiny spark of their true selves within their personalities.

dustyskipper3 said:Peace and Love brother. 😍

OT: When the barking stops, the silence begins. Dogs bark, but the caravans just keep rolling.

I was always taught that the actual truth reveals itself through palindromes (see, for example, D. Oraić-Tolić’s work on the Palindromic Apocalypse). If you apply that logic to the concept of truth, we get:

Truth - a thread

From this, I suppose we can conclude that a person seeking the truth—viewing it as a mere thread—can only truly grasp it through a long series of shifting perspectives, much like the various discussion threads we have here on this forum. I guess even Z. Tomac searched for the red thread, only to find a black one, yet neither held any real truth. 😳 Truth isn't some rigid ideology; it is a sequence, a chain, a thread... perhaps the closest anyone came was Heraclitus, who famously said everything flows and you can't step into the same river twice, though he still didn't quite explain where the river comes from or where it's actually headed. ☕