Conversion therapy" for lesbian girls in America and similar cases

redharbor9 said:Truth or not, I’ve heard a ton of stories like this firsthand—not personally, obviously, but from people close to me. And honestly? Most of them are way darker and more twisted than what you're hearing here. This kind of stuff is just everyday life in America...

Good grief, I find it hard to believe this is actually commonplace.
I can wrap my head around extreme cases popping up every now and then, but the idea that this happens with such frequency is honestly hard to swallow.

redharbor9, where on earth are you meeting people with experiences like that?🤷

Look, I've spent years volunteering for the iskorakov online support group, and I'm still deep in those circles...

...So, I actually went looking for a psychiatrist to try and "fix" my sanity and somehow turn me into a lesbian... but nothing. No one will do it... and honestly? Not even a single guy would want me, even if I were at my absolute lowest point...
I am being dead serious here...

Sandra Morgan2 said:Fair enough... that stands. Maybe what my girlfriend told me is the truth, or maybe it isn't....

But you have to admit that prejudices exist, along with both active and passive aggression toward gay people. For example, I don't know a single gay guy (and I know about ten) who hasn't dealt with some idiot trying to mess with him because of it.

Every one of them has some sad story—a history of verbal abuse, harassment, or even physical attacks because of their sexual orientation.

You could argue again that these are second-hand stories, but if you look just a little bit, you'll see that contempt for homosexuals is a widespread issue across America.

I recently read this. A really touching story from a young gay man's perspective.

And of course, nobody ever hears about parents banning a straight kid from hanging out with certain people or groups they deem a "bad influence," right?
I don't think anyone's ever had their phone or internet access stripped away and been monitored constantly on their way to and from school just because they aren't gay.

We really need to be careful with this kind of sensationalism; leaning too hard into it is going to cause a massive backfire, and it'll end up hurting the people who are actually struggling.

Of course he heard about it, but I think you're missing the point on why these "punishments" happen in the first place... I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing cases where parents do this to their kids just because they're straight and won't let them go out or take away their phones until they decide to be gay...

hollowtrucker77 said:And of course, nobody ever hears about parents banning a straight kid from hanging out with certain people or groups they deem a "bad influence," right?
I don't think anyone's ever had their phone or internet access stripped away and been monitored constantly on their way to and from school just because they aren't gay.

We really need to be careful with this kind of sensationalism; leaning too hard into it is going to cause a massive backfire, and it'll end up hurting the people who are actually struggling.

That’s just not the case, hollowtrucker77.
In this girl's situation,
just like with Ana in the original post,
these kids aren't the problem.
They aren't causing trouble for anyone.

The parents are the ones with the problem.
They think their child is some kind of freak.

It’s all about their own pain because, to them,
their kid "isn't normal"
and they're worried about "what people will think."
Plus, it's just their own prejudices against gay people.

Besides, I don't see how total isolation and control ever yields any actual results in any scenario. But I am certain of one thing: that is a form of violence, not a parenting method.

hollowtrucker77 said:And of course, nobody ever hears about parents banning a straight kid from hanging out with certain people or groups they deem a "bad influence," right?
I don't think anyone's ever had their phone or internet access stripped away and been monitored constantly on their way to and from school just because they aren't gay.

We really need to be careful with this kind of sensationalism; leaning too hard into it is going to cause a massive backfire, and it'll end up hurting the people who are actually struggling.

You're oversimplifying the whole situation, Saš.

The crux of the matter here is that these parents are essentially looking for "treatment" specifically because of someone's sexual orientation. This isn't some teenager getting grounded for being a rebel at high school or getting caught smoking weed because they were hanging out with the wrong crowd.

I’m trying my best here to separate the signal from the noise so we don't descend into pure sensationalism
please, just please don't take this as me having some sort of personal vendetta against the gay community
🙂
the reality is that people can be pretty much anything, and frankly, they’re often far more primitive and dim-witted than any of us care to admit
but...
for instance, I can easily picture parents dragging their kids into some clinic demanding a "cure" for homosexuality, though I have to say, I struggle to find much faith in doctors who would actually entertain such a thing
they should at least be aware of the fallout for their own reputations, if not for all the other reasons involved
(though, knowing my luck, I’ll probably just end up disappointed by the collective IQ of the medical establishment yet again)

on the flip side, we really need to get our facts straight before we start throwing stones at anyone or anything—and I'm talking about that other example here
the thing is, we don't actually know
maybe the girl told her parents she was just playing around or experimenting? maybe she was pressured into trying something out?
maybe she just had a rough patch with her grades at school?
there are probably several different versions of this story and multiple ways to view the situation, so I don't think it's particularly wise to immediately start screaming that it happened because the girl is gay
now, look, that is absolutely a very plausible version of events, even if it isn't the only one
but then again, parents have historically applied similar tactics to almost every group of kids, especially when those kids didn't fit the standard mold or march perfectly in line with the mainstream

hollowtrucker77 said:I’m trying my best here to separate the signal from the noise so we don't descend into pure sensationalism
please, just please don't take this as me having some sort of personal vendetta against the gay community
🙂
the reality is that people can be pretty much anything, and frankly, they’re often far more primitive and dim-witted than any of us care to admit
but...
for instance, I can easily picture parents dragging their kids into some clinic demanding a "cure" for homosexuality, though I have to say, I struggle to find much faith in doctors who would actually entertain such a thing
they should at least be aware of the fallout for their own reputations, if not for all the other reasons involved
(though, knowing my luck, I’ll probably just end up disappointed by the collective IQ of the medical establishment yet again)

on the flip side, we really need to get our facts straight before we start throwing stones at anyone or anything—and I'm talking about that other example here
the thing is, we don't actually know
maybe the girl told her parents she was just playing around or experimenting? maybe she was pressured into trying something out?
maybe she just had a rough patch with her grades at school?
there are probably several different versions of this story and multiple ways to view the situation, so I don't think it's particularly wise to immediately start screaming that it happened because the girl is gay
now, look, that is absolutely a very plausible version of events, even if it isn't the only one
but then again, parents have historically applied similar tactics to almost every group of kids, especially when those kids didn't fit the standard mold or march perfectly in line with the mainstream

I don't follow, hollowtrucker77. I just repeated what I heard. The little girl is kept under close supervision at home, and they have daily family meetings where the mom tries to "heal" her through conversation. Apparently, the girl knows exactly when to say she isn't interested anymore so they'll gradually leave her alone, but she's such an intensely honest soul that she simply can't bring herself to lie.

Now, you can say you don't believe it—which is fair... maybe her girlfriend is making it up, or maybe the girl herself is making things up to get out of the relationship. So you're right; we should be cautious before jumping to conclusions since this is all second-hand information.

But you can't deny the weight of Anne Dragicevic's story, nor can you deny that gay people in America, especially men (I'll leave women out of this for now), face massive struggles with primitive homophobes and heterosexists. And it's not just them—it's the traditionalists, the puritans, and the small-minded folks in the environments where they live and work...

slywolf45 said:You're oversimplifying the whole situation, Saš.

The crux of the matter here is that these parents are essentially looking for "treatment" specifically because of someone's sexual orientation. This isn't some teenager getting grounded for being a rebel at high school or getting caught smoking weed because they were hanging out with the wrong crowd.

That isn't the point; her orientation is merely incidental. The story highlights the inhumanity of parents toward their own child, and the cruelty of social institutions. It is entirely possible to force a healthy individual into "treatment," where they remain trapped within an institution without any way to leave or call for help. They can be subjected to torture or even murder, with the truth hidden behind closed doors. I know of cases far worse than this one, and there is much to discuss.
Given the massive elephant in the room, it feels pointless to focus on the girl being gay just to push a narrative about how homosexuals are disenfranchised or stigmatized.

Zachary Mendoza2 said:That isn't the point; her orientation is merely incidental. The story highlights the inhumanity of parents toward their own child, and the cruelty of social institutions. It is entirely possible to force a healthy individual into "treatment," where they remain trapped within an institution without any way to leave or call for help. They can be subjected to torture or even murder, with the truth hidden behind closed doors. I know of cases far worse than this one, and there is much to discuss.
Given the massive elephant in the room, it feels pointless to focus on the girl being gay just to push a narrative about how homosexuals are disenfranchised or stigmatized.

No, we aren't talking about minor punishments here—things like being grounded for three days or losing computer privileges because you messed up. We are talking about the terrifying reality of parents attempting to institutionalize their children.
Because of their sexual orientation.
And that is specifically what this thread is addressing.
Sure, there are certainly enough unstable parents out there who would commit their children to institutions for various other reasons, but that isn't the focus here. Just as there are parents who resort to physical violence or sexual abuse, those are separate issues. This discussion is about this specific context.

placidjackal36 said:Interesting stuff, regardless of how you look at it.

What exactly?

slywolf45 said:No, we aren't talking about minor punishments here—things like being grounded for three days or losing computer privileges because you messed up. We are talking about the terrifying reality of parents attempting to institutionalize their children.
Because of their sexual orientation.
And that is specifically what this thread is addressing.
Sure, there are certainly enough unstable parents out there who would commit their children to institutions for various other reasons, but that isn't the focus here. Just as there are parents who resort to physical violence or sexual abuse, those are separate issues. This discussion is about this specific context.

So, if they committed her for other reasons, they would be crazy. Here, however, we are trying to discuss the specific motives behind her placement. We are discussing it as if it were a rational, sane decision made by healthy people, motivated solely by the knowledge of her homosexual orientation. As if everything would be acceptable if she weren't gay, or if her parents held different views on homosexuality.

I predict this discussion will hit a landmine. Homosexuality is not an illness, and you cannot be sent to a psychiatric ward with such a diagnosis, even under a corrupt system, due to potential legal repercussions. The diagnosis would have to be something else—some medical condition that impairs a person's ability to function in society, or some state that harms the girl or those around her.
I am not fully briefed on this girl's story, but it sounds highly suspicious that she was accepted for treatment based on homosexuality. Furthermore, there are mentions of drug addiction reports.
Can we somehow confirm that everything was fine with the girl and her parents otherwise, and that she was actually sent and admitted for treatment specifically because of her homosexuality, rather than something else?

Zachary Mendoza2 said:So, if they committed her for other reasons, they would be crazy. Here, however, we are trying to discuss the specific motives behind her placement. We are discussing it as if it were a rational, sane decision made by healthy people, motivated solely by the knowledge of her homosexual orientation. As if everything would be acceptable if she weren't gay, or if her parents held different views on homosexuality.

I predict this discussion will hit a landmine. Homosexuality is not an illness, and you cannot be sent to a psychiatric ward with such a diagnosis, even under a corrupt system, due to potential legal repercussions. The diagnosis would have to be something else—some medical condition that impairs a person's ability to function in society, or some state that harms the girl or those around her.
I am not fully briefed on this girl's story, but it sounds highly suspicious that she was accepted for treatment based on homosexuality. Furthermore, there are mentions of drug addiction reports.
Can we somehow confirm that everything was fine with the girl and her parents otherwise, and that she was actually sent and admitted for treatment specifically because of her homosexuality, rather than something else?

Wait, are you actually kidding me right now?
Of course I think they aren't acting normally.
I can't believe you're trying to lecture ME on this.😕

Quincy:

The diagnosis has to be something else entirely—some actual medical issue that impairs her ability to function in society, or some condition that genuinely harms her or those around her. I don't know the full details regarding this girl's situation, but the idea that she was admitted for treatment based on her homosexuality sounds incredibly suspicious to me.On top of that, there are mentions of drug addiction issues.

Supposedly, they fabricated the diagnosis just to have an excuse to lock her up.
I don't know what's fact and what's fiction here, but it seems like a significant portion of it is true, considering those doctors have been fired and the hospital director has been ousted.

(I'm referring to Anna from the start of the thread)

I stumbled upon this thread by accident. Do you guys honestly think these people are mentally ill and need to be institutionalized? It’s just nonsense; there isn't some magic cure for this. Shouldn't we just let them live their lives however they want? If you can't stand them, why not just stay away and call it a day?😠

slywolf45 said:Wait, are you actually kidding me right now?
Of course I think they aren't acting normally.
I can't believe you're trying to lecture ME on this.😕

Quincy:

The diagnosis has to be something else entirely—some actual medical issue that impairs her ability to function in society, or some condition that genuinely harms her or those around her. I don't know the full details regarding this girl's situation, but the idea that she was admitted for treatment based on her homosexuality sounds incredibly suspicious to me.On top of that, there are mentions of drug addiction issues.

Supposedly, they fabricated the diagnosis just to have an excuse to lock her up.
I don't know what's fact and what's fiction here, but it seems like a significant portion of it is true, considering those doctors have been fired and the hospital director has been ousted.

(I'm referring to Anna from the start of the thread)

This is exactly my point. If they aren't considered mentally ill, then the entire argument about homosexuals being sent to asylums because of their orientation falls apart.
Unstable parents would have had her committed to an asylum, simply because she was left-handed or because of what Milan Vidov predicted.

Quincy:

Supposedly, they planted that on her just to flag her for something. I am unsure what can be verified as fact, but it seems certain that much of this is true if doctors are being laid off and the hospital director has been ousted. (I am referring to the one mentioned at the start of the thread, Anna.)

I am referring back to the story mentioned at the start of this thread. Unfortunately, I cannot provide more specific details regarding exactly what transpired or the reasons behind those personnel changes, as I simply lack that information. The media likely covered the situation, but I don't really follow the news much myself. 😬
I find it highly doubtful that her sexual orientation is the primary factor here. As I previously noted, we must consider the legal implications.
It also strikes me as suspicious that she spent five years institutionalized without any mention of efforts from family or friends to get her out.
Quoting:
Quincy:

My parents and sisters haven't tried to reach out, nor do I want them to. As far as I'm concerned, they no longer exist. A few months ago, my aunt dealt with some unpleasantness involving my former stepfather; he threatened her because she took my side, telling her he only has two daughters, not three. My extended family remains okay. They still support me.

Reading this article, it seems like only lesbian advocacy groups have even attempted to take action on her behalf, which makes the whole narrative feel incredibly one-sided. Naturally, the coverage is being filtered solely through the lens of her sexual orientation.
How is it possible that she didn't have anyone closer—members of LGBTQ+ advocacy groups, family, friends, or even neighbors—who would have stepped up to demand her release if she were placed in a mental health facility while perfectly sane?

Sandra Morgan2 said:I don't follow, hollowtrucker77. I just repeated what I heard. The little girl is kept under close supervision at home, and they have daily family meetings where the mom tries to "heal" her through conversation. Apparently, the girl knows exactly when to say she isn't interested anymore so they'll gradually leave her alone, but she's such an intensely honest soul that she simply can't bring herself to lie.

Now, you can say you don't believe it—which is fair... maybe her girlfriend is making it up, or maybe the girl herself is making things up to get out of the relationship. So you're right; we should be cautious before jumping to conclusions since this is all second-hand information.

But you can't deny the weight of Anne Dragicevic's story, nor can you deny that gay people in America, especially men (I'll leave women out of this for now), face massive struggles with primitive homophobes and heterosexists. And it's not just them—it's the traditionalists, the puritans, and the small-minded folks in the environments where they live and work...

I wouldn't say I disbelieve it, because I've seen enough weirdness in my time to know that, unfortunately, almost anything is possible among human beings.
Yeah, sadly, this scenario is entirely plausible, and it’s a disgrace for all of us, not just those specific parents.
The point I'm trying to make is that we need to be careful not to pin everything on a single cause, and we shouldn't start attributing every single thing that happens to someone's sexual orientation without actually trying to get a more objective picture of the situation.

Anna was admitted to the facility due to drug addiction, and we'd really need to look into the specifics of the therapy she was receiving before we could claim to know exactly what was going down.

What I'm attempting to highlight is the need for a bit of caution to maintain credibility, lest we end up falling victim to a sort of "Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome.
It’s similar to how I hear people claiming nowadays that everything happening to someone in America is purely because they happen to be Black.

Zachary Mendoza2 said:This is exactly my point. If they aren't considered mentally ill, then the entire argument about homosexuals being sent to asylums because of their orientation falls apart.
Unstable parents would have had her committed to an asylum, simply because she was left-handed or because of what Milan Vidov predicted.

Quincy:

Supposedly, they planted that on her just to flag her for something. I am unsure what can be verified as fact, but it seems certain that much of this is true if doctors are being laid off and the hospital director has been ousted. (I am referring to the one mentioned at the start of the thread, Anna.)

I am referring back to the story mentioned at the start of this thread. Unfortunately, I cannot provide more specific details regarding exactly what transpired or the reasons behind those personnel changes, as I simply lack that information. The media likely covered the situation, but I don't really follow the news much myself. 😬
I find it highly doubtful that her sexual orientation is the primary factor here. As I previously noted, we must consider the legal implications.
It also strikes me as suspicious that she spent five years institutionalized without any mention of efforts from family or friends to get her out.
Quoting:
Quincy:

My parents and sisters haven't tried to reach out, nor do I want them to. As far as I'm concerned, they no longer exist. A few months ago, my aunt dealt with some unpleasantness involving my former stepfather; he threatened her because she took my side, telling her he only has two daughters, not three. My extended family remains okay. They still support me.

Reading this article, it seems like only lesbian advocacy groups have even attempted to take action on her behalf, which makes the whole narrative feel incredibly one-sided. Naturally, the coverage is being filtered solely through the lens of her sexual orientation.
How is it possible that she didn't have anyone closer—members of LGBTQ+ advocacy groups, family, friends, or even neighbors—who would have stepped up to demand her release if she were placed in a mental health facility while perfectly sane?

But that’s not the issue here; it's because she's a lesbian.
And as a convenient cover story, they claimed she was using drugs.

Quincy:

How is it possible that this girl didn't have anyone close to her—members of LGBTQ+ advocacy groups, relatives, friends, even neighbors—who would have stepped up to fight for her release if she was actually sent to an asylum while perfectly sane?

I know for a fact that if something like this ever happened to me, my relatives wouldn't give a damn. Seriously. Everyone is out for themselves these days; it's all about self-preservation. People love to gossip, sure, but actually lifting a finger to help? That requires effort most people aren't willing to expend.

If the core of this story is that her parents told the family she was committed because of drug use and whatnot, the relatives almost certainly believed them over her. After all, they're the parents, and she's just some kid who "fell in with the wrong crowd" and started using. People simply don't care about others anymore.
Kudos to the rare exceptions, though.

slywolf45 said:But that’s not the issue here; it's because she's a lesbian.
And as a convenient cover story, they claimed she was using drugs.

Quincy:

How is it possible that this girl didn't have anyone close to her—members of LGBTQ+ advocacy groups, relatives, friends, even neighbors—who would have stepped up to fight for her release if she was actually sent to an asylum while perfectly sane?

I know for a fact that if something like this ever happened to me, my relatives wouldn't give a damn. Seriously. Everyone is out for themselves these days; it's all about self-preservation. People love to gossip, sure, but actually lifting a finger to help? That requires effort most people aren't willing to expend.

If the core of this story is that her parents told the family she was committed because of drug use and whatnot, the relatives almost certainly believed them over her. After all, they're the parents, and she's just some kid who "fell in with the wrong crowd" and started using. People simply don't care about others anymore.
Kudos to the rare exceptions, though.

It is possible, but that would imply several other things. The professionals tasked with her "treatment" would have had to determine she wasn't using drugs as claimed, nor showing any signs of addiction. They would have had to intentionally hospitalize her knowing homosexuality was the sole issue, and they would have had to orchestrate a cover-up by signing a false diagnosis.
I am not saying it is impossible, but these details accumulate into a highly improbable scenario. If we view her story through the lens of attitudes toward HOMOSEXUALITY, sudden gaps appear and the narrative becomes quite unbelievable.

Quincy:

I know for a fact that if this happened to me, my relatives wouldn't give a damn. Seriously. Everyone looks out for themselves; nobody cares about anyone else. Gossiping is fine, but lifting a finger? That takes effort. If the emphasis here is that her parents told her relatives she was in a mental ward due to drugs, those relatives likely believed them over her. After all, they are the parents, and she is just some kid who fell in with the wrong crowd and started using. People simply don't care about others these days. Credit to the exceptions.

Fine, but what about her social circle, schoolmates, or teachers? They surely must have known she was fine—that she hadn't fallen into bad company or started using drugs. Would it really be that easy for a student to just stop showing up to school because she was institutionalized under those pretenses? And would no one ask questions or react, even by calling the police?
In reality, the only people who showed any level of humanity or social responsibility were members of lesbian advocacy groups. How convenient.👍
(Lawyers and journalists arrived later, driven by their usual motives).

Zachary Mendoza2 said:It is possible, but that would imply several other things. The professionals tasked with her "treatment" would have had to determine she wasn't using drugs as claimed, nor showing any signs of addiction. They would have had to intentionally hospitalize her knowing homosexuality was the sole issue, and they would have had to orchestrate a cover-up by signing a false diagnosis.
I am not saying it is impossible, but these details accumulate into a highly improbable scenario. If we view her story through the lens of attitudes toward HOMOSEXUALITY, sudden gaps appear and the narrative becomes quite unbelievable.

Quincy:

I know for a fact that if this happened to me, my relatives wouldn't give a damn. Seriously. Everyone looks out for themselves; nobody cares about anyone else. Gossiping is fine, but lifting a finger? That takes effort. If the emphasis here is that her parents told her relatives she was in a mental ward due to drugs, those relatives likely believed them over her. After all, they are the parents, and she is just some kid who fell in with the wrong crowd and started using. People simply don't care about others these days. Credit to the exceptions.

Fine, but what about her social circle, schoolmates, or teachers? They surely must have known she was fine—that she hadn't fallen into bad company or started using drugs. Would it really be that easy for a student to just stop showing up to school because she was institutionalized under those pretenses? And would no one ask questions or react, even by calling the police?
In reality, the only people who showed any level of humanity or social responsibility were members of lesbian advocacy groups. How convenient.👍
(Lawyers and journalists arrived later, driven by their usual motives).

Exactly.
The theory is that there was some sort of arrangement with the specialists to frame it as a drug issue. And apparently, they were all disciples of the Gruden school of thought, given he openly argues that homosexuality should be treated.
Why on earth are you acting surprised?😕

Quincy:

Alright, but what about society at large? Her classmates, her teachers? They would have had to know she was perfectly fine—that she hadn't fallen in with a bad crowd or started using substances. Would it really be that easy for a student to just vanish from school because she was institutionalized under those pretenses? Would nobody ask questions or react, even by calling the police? In reality, the only people who showed even a shred of basic human decency or social responsibility were members of lesbian advocacy groups. How convenient.👍 (The lawyers and journalists only showed up later, driven by their usual agendas).

I have to admit, parts of this story don't quite add up for me either.
But surely those hospital employees weren't fired and replaced just because of a documentary and some unproven allegations?
Or were they? I honestly don't know.🤷