Let's talk perfectionism: General discussion

Robert Harris5 said:If you ask me, I think perfectionists actually lack the necessary intelligence to truly grasp their own potential and act on it effectively. Someone with real insight understands that making mistakes is just part of being human—after all, nobody is actually perfect.

Well, I have to disagree. I think you're missing the mark entirely here. This isn't about a lack of talent or someone failing to grasp their own potential.

Matthew Castillo5 said:Well, I have to disagree. I think you're missing the mark entirely here. This isn't about a lack of talent or someone failing to grasp their own potential.

Then what is it? What's the real issue?

Robert Harris5 said:Then what is it? What's the real issue?

It’s hard to pin down, and honestly, even harder to deal with. Look, I consider myself pretty sharp—I know nobody's perfect and making mistakes is just part of being human—but I definitely lean toward perfectionism in certain areas. It isn't really a cognitive thing, though; it feels more like an emerging emotional struggle, and I suspect my upbringing probably played a huge role in shaping it.

I don't think I've ever actually run into a perfectionist who wasn't also, well, kind of lacking in the brain department.🙄

Matthew Castillo5 said:It’s hard to pin down, and honestly, even harder to deal with. Look, I consider myself pretty sharp—I know nobody's perfect and making mistakes is just part of being human—but I definitely lean toward perfectionism in certain areas. It isn't really a cognitive thing, though; it feels more like an emerging emotional struggle, and I suspect my upbringing probably played a huge role in shaping it.

How would the ancient Romans have phrased the sentiment: "It is a deformity to boast of oneself"? 🙂 That’s exactly what I was thinking. You’re still keeping your cards close to the chest, aren't you? Fine, be that way. I’ll just stick to my guns and maintain that perfectionists generally lack the necessary cognitive bandwidth, which is why they end up getting so hopelessly bogged down in the weeds. It’s a cycle. For instance, when someone sits down to draft an email—or even just a quick post on a forum like this... 🙂 You know, I’ve been thinking about those people who spend thirty minutes obsessively checking over a single email before they finally hit send—assuming they even find the courage to click "send" at all. Honestly? It feels like a bit of a paradox. You’d think someone truly sharp would spot an error instantly, or realize there isn't one to begin with, rather than just spinning their wheels and wasting precious time. It reminds me of that classic trap of perfectionism, where someone sets these impossibly high, unrealistic standards for themselves and ends up making life absolutely miserable in the process. It’s a heavy way to live. Of course, I shouldn't paint everyone with the same brush. There’s a big difference between that kind of self-sabotage and the people who aim high but actually set goals that are attainable. One is a recipe for burnout, while the other is just... well, being ambitious.

gentlesailor25 said:I don't think I've ever actually run into a perfectionist who wasn't also, well, kind of lacking in the brain department.🙄

That’s a fair point, I suppose. But honestly, how can you really be certain about someone’s actual IQ? In my mind, you can't truly claim to know where someone stands unless you've actually sat down and looked at their official test results. Otherwise, isn't it all just guesswork?

Robert Harris5 said:How would the ancient Romans have phrased the sentiment: "It is a deformity to boast of oneself"? 🙂 That’s exactly what I was thinking. You’re still keeping your cards close to the chest, aren't you? Fine, be that way. I’ll just stick to my guns and maintain that perfectionists generally lack the necessary cognitive bandwidth, which is why they end up getting so hopelessly bogged down in the weeds. It’s a cycle. For instance, when someone sits down to draft an email—or even just a quick post on a forum like this... 🙂 You know, I’ve been thinking about those people who spend thirty minutes obsessively checking over a single email before they finally hit send—assuming they even find the courage to click "send" at all. Honestly? It feels like a bit of a paradox. You’d think someone truly sharp would spot an error instantly, or realize there isn't one to begin with, rather than just spinning their wheels and wasting precious time. It reminds me of that classic trap of perfectionism, where someone sets these impossibly high, unrealistic standards for themselves and ends up making life absolutely miserable in the process. It’s a heavy way to live. Of course, I shouldn't paint everyone with the same brush. There’s a big difference between that kind of self-sabotage and the people who aim high but actually set goals that are attainable. One is a recipe for burnout, while the other is just... well, being ambitious.

That’s a fair point, I suppose. But honestly, how can you really be certain about someone’s actual IQ? In my mind, you can't truly claim to know where someone stands unless you've actually sat down and looked at their official test results. Otherwise, isn't it all just guesswork?

Intelligence and common sense are two completely different animals!
obviously a perfectionist knows they're wasting time on trivial nonsense, but they're still gonna do it anyway...
it's just like how someone with OCD knows it makes zero sense to wash their hands twice every single time they touch something, but they can't just stop themselves...
saying perfectionists aren't smart is like saying people who get drunk and end up puking in a gutter are less intelligent—because if they were actually smart, they would have known they'd feel like crap and wouldn't have overdone it in the first place.

Morgan Bishop4 said:Intelligence and common sense are two completely different animals!
obviously a perfectionist knows they're wasting time on trivial nonsense, but they're still gonna do it anyway...
it's just like how someone with OCD knows it makes zero sense to wash their hands twice every single time they touch something, but they can't just stop themselves...
saying perfectionists aren't smart is like saying people who get drunk and end up puking in a gutter are less intelligent—because if they were actually smart, they would have known they'd feel like crap and wouldn't have overdone it in the first place.

I wouldn't say those two things are quite the same, though I'll admit my analogy might be a bit off. Regarding the drinking example: someone might know, or at least strongly suspect, that they'll feel terrible later, but they choose to drink specifically to unwind, blow off steam, or just enjoy a night out. That choice doesn't suddenly drop their IQ. Also, I have to disagree with the idea that someone with OCD is consciously choosing to wash their hands twice. If they truly recognized the behavior as irrational and had full control over it, why would they do it? My point is that they do it because they don't truly perceive the dysfunction—or rather, they lack the cognitive tools to override the impulse. In fact, certain types of obsessive-compulsive disorders actually stem from perfectionism itself.

Robert Harris5 said:I wouldn't say those two things are quite the same, though I'll admit my analogy might be a bit off. Regarding the drinking example: someone might know, or at least strongly suspect, that they'll feel terrible later, but they choose to drink specifically to unwind, blow off steam, or just enjoy a night out. That choice doesn't suddenly drop their IQ. Also, I have to disagree with the idea that someone with OCD is consciously choosing to wash their hands twice. If they truly recognized the behavior as irrational and had full control over it, why would they do it? My point is that they do it because they don't truly perceive the dysfunction—or rather, they lack the cognitive tools to override the impulse. In fact, certain types of obsessive-compulsive disorders actually stem from perfectionism itself.

So, what if someone is just being incredibly precise and thorough with their work because they can't stand leaving things half-baked or sloppy and messy... 🤷
how on earth can you label that as a sign of low intelligence?
Are you seriously suggesting that anyone dealing with any kind of struggle in life is unintelligent just because they can't wrap their head around it or fix it?
Does that mean only the geniuses out there are happy and satisfied with their lives, simply because they have the mental bandwidth to identify problems, solve them, and make perfect decisions every single time?! wtf😕

The thing about Stephen King is that he tries way too hard to apply logic to things that just aren't logical, and honestly, people like that usually don't even have a clue how psychology actually works.
As for OCD, I mean, maybe you should dig through some of the threads on that disorder first, then really sit back and think about whether those folks are actually aware they’re struggling or if they’re totally oblivious to it.🙄

Robert Harris5 said:I wouldn't say those two things are quite the same, though I'll admit my analogy might be a bit off. Regarding the drinking example: someone might know, or at least strongly suspect, that they'll feel terrible later, but they choose to drink specifically to unwind, blow off steam, or just enjoy a night out. That choice doesn't suddenly drop their IQ. Also, I have to disagree with the idea that someone with OCD is consciously choosing to wash their hands twice. If they truly recognized the behavior as irrational and had full control over it, why would they do it? My point is that they do it because they don't truly perceive the dysfunction—or rather, they lack the cognitive tools to override the impulse. In fact, certain types of obsessive-compulsive disorders actually stem from perfectionism itself.

This shows a real lack of understanding regarding how certain mental health struggles actually function.
You should check out the Psychiatric Couch forum under the OCD thread; I promise you that everyone posting there is fully aware of what they're dealing with. It isn't about "knowing"... it's about the emotions involved. As Martian7 already pointed out, someone who feels compelled to check if their front door is locked twenty-four times could easily be a Mensa member or a top-tier academic...

Michelle Evans said:This shows a real lack of understanding regarding how certain mental health struggles actually function.
You should check out the Psychiatric Couch forum under the OCD thread; I promise you that everyone posting there is fully aware of what they're dealing with. It isn't about "knowing"... it's about the emotions involved. As Martian7 already pointed out, someone who feels compelled to check if their front door is locked twenty-four times could easily be a Mensa member or a top-tier academic...

Actually, 😁 some people argue that OCD is just an inherent flaw in the intelligent population.

gentlesailor25 said:The thing about Stephen King is that he tries way too hard to apply logic to things that just aren't logical, and honestly, people like that usually don't even have a clue how psychology actually works.
As for OCD, I mean, maybe you should dig through some of the threads on that disorder first, then really sit back and think about whether those folks are actually aware they’re struggling or if they’re totally oblivious to it.🙄

Maybe I should just try explaining this through a more irrational lens?

Morgan Bishop4 said:So, what if someone is just being incredibly precise and thorough with their work because they can't stand leaving things half-baked or sloppy and messy... 🤷
how on earth can you label that as a sign of low intelligence?
Are you seriously suggesting that anyone dealing with any kind of struggle in life is unintelligent just because they can't wrap their head around it or fix it?
Does that mean only the geniuses out there are happy and satisfied with their lives, simply because they have the mental bandwidth to identify problems, solve them, and make perfect decisions every single time?! wtf😕

Now, let me be clear—I never suggested that being a perfectionist automatically makes someone unintelligent. Not at all. In my view, we really have to distinguish between two different sides of the coin here. On one hand, you have what I’d call positive perfectionism. This is actually quite a productive trait; it involves being thorough, staying precise with your work, and setting high standards that are actually grounded in reality. It's about striving for excellence without losing your footing. On the other hand, there’s this negative side of perfectionism that seems much more prevalent these days, and frankly, it’s quite debilitating. It prevents people from functioning effectively in their daily lives. This version is characterized by setting these impossibly high, unrealistic goals that simply don't align with a person's actual capacity or circumstances. It's a cycle that just doesn't serve anyone.
I don't necessarily believe that anyone struggling to solve their own problems is lacking intelligence, nor do I think happiness is reserved solely for the brilliant. It really all comes down to the nature of the struggle itself. Of course, if someone is genuinely distressed because they feel they lack physical beauty—perhaps obsessing over a perceived flaw in their appearance—you might question their judgment. Or perhaps you wouldn't? One could argue that such an obsession is simply a manifestation of perfectionism.

Michelle Evans said:This shows a real lack of understanding regarding how certain mental health struggles actually function.
You should check out the Psychiatric Couch forum under the OCD thread; I promise you that everyone posting there is fully aware of what they're dealing with. It isn't about "knowing"... it's about the emotions involved. As Martian7 already pointed out, someone who feels compelled to check if their front door is locked twenty-four times could easily be a Mensa member or a top-tier academic...

Martian7 actually mentioned that it’s a bit of a tough thing to explain. I certainly agree that someone dealing with those kinds of issues can still be a brilliant academic, though I just can't quite wrap my head around the idea that struggling to write a simple email wouldn't have something to do with their cognitive faculties.

Robert Harris5 said:Maybe I should just try explaining this through a more irrational lens?

Now, let me be clear—I never suggested that being a perfectionist automatically makes someone unintelligent. Not at all. In my view, we really have to distinguish between two different sides of the coin here. On one hand, you have what I’d call positive perfectionism. This is actually quite a productive trait; it involves being thorough, staying precise with your work, and setting high standards that are actually grounded in reality. It's about striving for excellence without losing your footing. On the other hand, there’s this negative side of perfectionism that seems much more prevalent these days, and frankly, it’s quite debilitating. It prevents people from functioning effectively in their daily lives. This version is characterized by setting these impossibly high, unrealistic goals that simply don't align with a person's actual capacity or circumstances. It's a cycle that just doesn't serve anyone.
I don't necessarily believe that anyone struggling to solve their own problems is lacking intelligence, nor do I think happiness is reserved solely for the brilliant. It really all comes down to the nature of the struggle itself. Of course, if someone is genuinely distressed because they feel they lack physical beauty—perhaps obsessing over a perceived flaw in their appearance—you might question their judgment. Or perhaps you wouldn't? One could argue that such an obsession is simply a manifestation of perfectionism.

Martian7 actually mentioned that it’s a bit of a tough thing to explain. I certainly agree that someone dealing with those kinds of issues can still be a brilliant academic, though I just can't quite wrap my head around the idea that struggling to write a simple email wouldn't have something to do with their cognitive faculties.

And then she said this, in bold:

Matthew Castillo5 said:It’s hard to pin down, and honestly, even harder to deal with. Look, I consider myself pretty sharp—I know nobody's perfect and making mistakes is just part of being human—but I definitely lean toward perfectionism in certain areas. It isn't really a cognitive thing, though; it feels more like an emerging emotional struggle, and I suspect my upbringing probably played a huge role in shaping it.

Please read with full comprehension and don't be selective...

Robert Harris5 said:Maybe I should just try explaining this through a more irrational lens?

Now, let me be clear—I never suggested that being a perfectionist automatically makes someone unintelligent. Not at all. In my view, we really have to distinguish between two different sides of the coin here. On one hand, you have what I’d call positive perfectionism. This is actually quite a productive trait; it involves being thorough, staying precise with your work, and setting high standards that are actually grounded in reality. It's about striving for excellence without losing your footing. On the other hand, there’s this negative side of perfectionism that seems much more prevalent these days, and frankly, it’s quite debilitating. It prevents people from functioning effectively in their daily lives. This version is characterized by setting these impossibly high, unrealistic goals that simply don't align with a person's actual capacity or circumstances. It's a cycle that just doesn't serve anyone.
I don't necessarily believe that anyone struggling to solve their own problems is lacking intelligence, nor do I think happiness is reserved solely for the brilliant. It really all comes down to the nature of the struggle itself. Of course, if someone is genuinely distressed because they feel they lack physical beauty—perhaps obsessing over a perceived flaw in their appearance—you might question their judgment. Or perhaps you wouldn't? One could argue that such an obsession is simply a manifestation of perfectionism.

Martian7 actually mentioned that it’s a bit of a tough thing to explain. I certainly agree that someone dealing with those kinds of issues can still be a brilliant academic, though I just can't quite wrap my head around the idea that struggling to write a simple email wouldn't have something to do with their cognitive faculties.

Honestly, you're getting your wires crossed here.
So, you're basically suggesting perfectionism is just some deep-seated insecurity or a desperate, futile attempt to fix things that are fundamentally broken? Like, what, are we talking about guys popping pills to try and fix their size, or girls caking on twenty pounds of makeup every morning just to hide a bad face or something?! 🤷 I wouldn't even call those people perfectionists... they're just insecure, or they have zero taste, or—in the case of the pill-poppers—they aren't exactly the brightest bulbs in the box...

Morgan Bishop4 said:Honestly, you're getting your wires crossed here.
So, you're basically suggesting perfectionism is just some deep-seated insecurity or a desperate, futile attempt to fix things that are fundamentally broken? Like, what, are we talking about guys popping pills to try and fix their size, or girls caking on twenty pounds of makeup every morning just to hide a bad face or something?! 🤷 I wouldn't even call those people perfectionists... they're just insecure, or they have zero taste, or—in the case of the pill-poppers—they aren't exactly the brightest bulbs in the box...

I don't believe perfectionism is rooted in insecurity. It feels like you're consistently drawing the wrong conclusions from my points. Insecurity can actually be a byproduct of negative perfectionism, rather than being its sole cause. By your logic, the original poster isn't a perfectionist, she’s just insecure because she mentioned wanting to be the most beautiful woman in the room despite not having certain physical attributes... blah, blah, blah. I truly had no intention of insulting anyone; I was simply reflecting on my own observations, where I've concluded that perfectionism often has a correlation with intelligence—specifically, that it might stem from a lack thereof. Of course, I'm not claiming all unintelligent people are perfectionists, nor that all perfectionists lack intellect. Perhaps I did take that particular thought a step too far. I'll happily concede that I might be wrong.

Michelle Evans said:This shows a real lack of understanding regarding how certain mental health struggles actually function.
You should check out the Psychiatric Couch forum under the OCD thread; I promise you that everyone posting there is fully aware of what they're dealing with. It isn't about "knowing"... it's about the emotions involved. As Martian7 already pointed out, someone who feels compelled to check if their front door is locked twenty-four times could easily be a Mensa member or a top-tier academic...

Robert Harris5 said:Maybe I should just try explaining this through a more irrational lens?

Now, let me be clear—I never suggested that being a perfectionist automatically makes someone unintelligent. Not at all. In my view, we really have to distinguish between two different sides of the coin here. On one hand, you have what I’d call positive perfectionism. This is actually quite a productive trait; it involves being thorough, staying precise with your work, and setting high standards that are actually grounded in reality. It's about striving for excellence without losing your footing. On the other hand, there’s this negative side of perfectionism that seems much more prevalent these days, and frankly, it’s quite debilitating. It prevents people from functioning effectively in their daily lives. This version is characterized by setting these impossibly high, unrealistic goals that simply don't align with a person's actual capacity or circumstances. It's a cycle that just doesn't serve anyone.
I don't necessarily believe that anyone struggling to solve their own problems is lacking intelligence, nor do I think happiness is reserved solely for the brilliant. It really all comes down to the nature of the struggle itself. Of course, if someone is genuinely distressed because they feel they lack physical beauty—perhaps obsessing over a perceived flaw in their appearance—you might question their judgment. Or perhaps you wouldn't? One could argue that such an obsession is simply a manifestation of perfectionism.

Martian7 actually mentioned that it’s a bit of a tough thing to explain. I certainly agree that someone dealing with those kinds of issues can still be a brilliant academic, though I just can't quite wrap my head around the idea that struggling to write a simple email wouldn't have something to do with their cognitive faculties.

Having issues actually hitting "send" on an email isn't—or at least doesn't necessarily have to be—the same thing as being unable to write one.

Nicholas King said:Having issues actually hitting "send" on an email isn't—or at least doesn't necessarily have to be—the same thing as being unable to write one.

Well, it doesn't *have* to be, but let's be realistic—if someone is agonizing over sending an email, they’re almost certainly struggling with what’s inside it. To me, those two things are deeply intertwined. Usually, that hesitation to click send stems from a lack of confidence in the message. They end up rewriting, tweaking, deleting, and obsessing over phrasing... which, by definition, is part of the writing process. When I first brought up this example regarding perfectionism, I thought I was being quite clear about where the bottleneck actually lies.

Robert Harris5 said:How would the ancient Romans have phrased the sentiment: "It is a deformity to boast of oneself"? 🙂 That’s exactly what I was thinking. You’re still keeping your cards close to the chest, aren't you? Fine, be that way. I’ll just stick to my guns and maintain that perfectionists generally lack the necessary cognitive bandwidth, which is why they end up getting so hopelessly bogged down in the weeds. It’s a cycle. For instance, when someone sits down to draft an email—or even just a quick post on a forum like this... 🙂 You know, I’ve been thinking about those people who spend thirty minutes obsessively checking over a single email before they finally hit send—assuming they even find the courage to click "send" at all. Honestly? It feels like a bit of a paradox. You’d think someone truly sharp would spot an error instantly, or realize there isn't one to begin with, rather than just spinning their wheels and wasting precious time. It reminds me of that classic trap of perfectionism, where someone sets these impossibly high, unrealistic standards for themselves and ends up making life absolutely miserable in the process. It’s a heavy way to live. Of course, I shouldn't paint everyone with the same brush. There’s a big difference between that kind of self-sabotage and the people who aim high but actually set goals that are attainable. One is a recipe for burnout, while the other is just... well, being ambitious.

That’s a fair point, I suppose. But honestly, how can you really be certain about someone’s actual IQ? In my mind, you can't truly claim to know where someone stands unless you've actually sat down and looked at their official test results. Otherwise, isn't it all just guesswork?

Robert Harris5 said:Well, it doesn't *have* to be, but let's be realistic—if someone is agonizing over sending an email, they’re almost certainly struggling with what’s inside it. To me, those two things are deeply intertwined. Usually, that hesitation to click send stems from a lack of confidence in the message. They end up rewriting, tweaking, deleting, and obsessing over phrasing... which, by definition, is part of the writing process. When I first brought up this example regarding perfectionism, I thought I was being quite clear about where the bottleneck actually lies.

Even so, it isn't a given.

I am a perfectionist.

When I purchase a bag of snacks and prepare to tear them open, may God forbid that I should somehow manage to open them upside down.

First, I make sure to check if they are oriented correctly. Only after that am I permitted to give them a gentle shake in peace before finally opening them.

Nicole Barrett76 said:I am a perfectionist.

When I purchase a bag of snacks and prepare to tear them open, may God forbid that I should somehow manage to open them upside down.

First, I make sure to check if they are oriented correctly. Only after that am I permitted to give them a gentle shake in peace before finally opening them.

Okay, that’s a pretty harmless example of perfectionism right there. I have my own version of this; before I put my headphones on, I always make sure I know which one is left and which is right, even though, honestly, it barely makes any difference which ear gets which side.