Vedic Authorities?

And who’s actually going to know? Honestly, thank God that isn't my problem anymore 😍

The whole foundation for any real progress is being completely open and just dropping the ego... but what I see happening with them is the exact opposite... they pick up a few SP books and suddenly think they're experts—like they're somehow above every other tradition—and they just soak up this fake sense of superiority. It's wild. SP answered a massive amount of questions based on his own realizations, yet these kids act like just skimming the pages is enough to master it all... all they end up with is enough material for endless intellectual debates and acting smart—which is a trap that's incredibly hard to break out of later. I mean... you have to keep your cup empty... but they’re basically filling it up and then sealing it shut, which totally kills any chance of moving forward...

By the way—if spiritual growth was just about mental gymnastics, everyone would’ve reached enlightenment by now (myself included, back when I was stuck in that phase) 😁

I still have all those arguments, the terminology, and the verses memorized... but honestly, what's the point? It’s almost funny seeing some of these replies here that just wander around aimlessly—like they're chasing their own tails. Maybe it sounds deep to someone hearing these concepts for the first time, but for us "old-timers" 🤣, it's obvious there isn't any other way to look at it... everything has already been said, and exactly in this order

Honestly, I don't take anything in this life too seriously—at least nothing coming from the outside world—even though I used to be so deeply immersed in all of it. I’d like to think my ego didn't get the better of me during that time, at least... that's how I perceive it 😬. My only genuine regret is that I happened to meet my spiritual teacher right in the middle of all that chaos, which meant our relationship was somewhat shaped by those specific circumstances
. But then again, I have seen and learned enough to remain steadfast even after hitting rock bottom
. I simply cannot imagine accepting any other guru
.

boldsailor2 said:By the way—if spiritual growth was just about mental gymnastics, everyone would’ve reached enlightenment by now (myself included, back when I was stuck in that phase) 😁

I still have all those arguments, the terminology, and the verses memorized... but honestly, what's the point? It’s almost funny seeing some of these replies here that just wander around aimlessly—like they're chasing their own tails. Maybe it sounds deep to someone hearing these concepts for the first time, but for us "old-timers" 🤣, it's obvious there isn't any other way to look at it... everything has already been said, and exactly in this order

First off, I really don't agree with the idea that the lineage in ISKCON has been broken. A lineage doesn't just vanish just because the founder isn't around anymore. By that logic, the Madhva lineage or the Ramanuja lineage wouldn't exist either. Even if we assume—and I'm assuming this is what you meant—that they lack a top-tier guru right now, that doesn't mean they won't have one in a few years or so.

Regarding the arguments being used, I wouldn't say they're completely nonsensical. Most of it holds up, even if not everything does.

If you don't mind me asking, which spiritual path are you following these days?

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Honestly, I don't take anything in this life too seriously—at least nothing coming from the outside world—even though I used to be so deeply immersed in all of it. I’d like to think my ego didn't get the better of me during that time, at least... that's how I perceive it 😬. My only genuine regret is that I happened to meet my spiritual teacher right in the middle of all that chaos, which meant our relationship was somewhat shaped by those specific circumstances
. But then again, I have seen and learned enough to remain steadfast even after hitting rock bottom
. I simply cannot imagine accepting any other guru
.

It isn't something you imagine—it just happens.😂🤣😁

Look, I’m talking about ritviks—if you even know what I’m getting at here 😉. There’s a huge difference between a real Guru and someone just filling in because there isn't anyone else better to step up 😉. ... SP established the ritvik system because he felt backed into a corner, and honestly, nobody ever bothered to tell us the truth back then... which basically means the parampara is broken...

But really, what are we even debating? If someone is actually serious about this, they’re going to head straight to Radhakund to find an authentic Vaishnav, rather than wasting their time—with all due respect—messing around with trained Westerners who are just playing dress-up with exotic traditions...

boldsailor2 said:Look, I’m talking about ritviks—if you even know what I’m getting at here 😉. There’s a huge difference between a real Guru and someone just filling in because there isn't anyone else better to step up 😉. ... SP established the ritvik system because he felt backed into a corner, and honestly, nobody ever bothered to tell us the truth back then... which basically means the parampara is broken...

But really, what are we even debating? If someone is actually serious about this, they’re going to head straight to Radhakund to find an authentic Vaishnav, rather than wasting their time—with all due respect—messing around with trained Westerners who are just playing dress-up with exotic traditions...

I get what you're saying, but just because a specific lineage might lack a top-tier guru at some point doesn't mean the connection is broken. So, even if we assume they are ritvik gurus, I guess the lineage still exists.

The scriptures and the Vaishnav acaryas suggest that a guru should ideally be someone who has reached the uttama level. If that’s not possible, they’ll choose someone at the madhyame level to ensure the lineage survives. If even then there's no one, they go with the kanisthe level. But I guess I agree with you—it might actually be better to accept a guru who is at the beginner level.

granitebadger23 said:It isn't something you imagine—it just happens.😂🤣😁

Well, I certainly can imagine quite a few things...🙂

This whole obsession with Radh Kunda feels a bit misplaced to me. Does an uttama really have to be someone specifically from Radh Kunda?
If that's the case, what is even the point of having Vaishnavism here in the States?

How does this go?--

tad vidhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevasya
upadeksyanti te jnyanam ......

Just try to find the truth by approaching a spiritual teacher. Be humble, ask questions, and serve them. Realized souls can pass that knowledge on to you—because they've actually seen the truth for themselves.
(Bhagavad Gita)

So the real criterion is self-realization, not just some intermediate level...

boldsailor2 said:Look, I’m talking about ritviks—if you even know what I’m getting at here 😉. There’s a huge difference between a real Guru and someone just filling in because there isn't anyone else better to step up 😉. ... SP established the ritvik system because he felt backed into a corner, and honestly, nobody ever bothered to tell us the truth back then... which basically means the parampara is broken...

But really, what are we even debating? If someone is actually serious about this, they’re going to head straight to Radhakund to find an authentic Vaishnav, rather than wasting their time—with all due respect—messing around with trained Westerners who are just playing dress-up with exotic traditions...

And look... Prabhu... SP wanted us to stay within ISKCON, not go wandering off somewhere else.😁

With all due respect, wasn't it said that those babajis ruined everything by following a made-up process?🤷😛

So, regarding the criteria for self-realization... in your opinion, would that be an address at Radh Kunda?

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Well, I certainly can imagine quite a few things...🙂

This whole obsession with Radh Kunda feels a bit misplaced to me. Does an uttama really have to be someone specifically from Radh Kunda?
If that's the case, what is even the point of having Vaishnavism here in the States?

Look... the closer you get to the spring, the cleaner the water is... personally, you can go looking for it in Cucerje for all I care... who knows if you'll find some hidden treasure in the bushes out there... but it still speaks to me—if you're looking for gold, go to a gold mine... the odds of actually finding something are way higher.🤷

either head straight to the jewelry store, or just go to hell 😳

Andrew Sanchez572 said:So, regarding the criteria for self-realization... in your opinion, would that be an address at Radh Kunda?

Yeah, right... 🙂 Like being over in Cleveland with Mahatma Rožman 🙂 🤣
😬

granitebadger23 said:And look... Prabhu... SP wanted us to stay within ISKCON, not go wandering off somewhere else.😁

With all due respect, wasn't it said that those babajis ruined everything by following a made-up process?🤷😛

.. those specific lines—they honestly make me twitch a little bit... 😁

granitebadger23 said:And look... Prabhu... SP wanted us to stay within ISKCON, not go wandering off somewhere else.😁

With all due respect, wasn't it said that those babajis ruined everything by following a made-up process?🤷😛

.. and man, Bore—he’s got more ego than Bruca Leo 🤣

Basically, someone was clearly desperate to keep the whole group together while spreading that kind of propaganda... I don't think SP had much to do with it—it feels totally taken out of context...

boldsailor2 said:How does this go?--

tad vidhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevasya
upadeksyanti te jnyanam ......

Just try to find the truth by approaching a spiritual teacher. Be humble, ask questions, and serve them. Realized souls can pass that knowledge on to you—because they've actually seen the truth for themselves.
(Bhagavad Gita)

So the real criterion is self-realization, not just some intermediate level...

That’s the ideal scenario, I guess. Without those kinds of gurus available, you don't really have much of a choice. You either have to be your own guru, or you accept someone who isn't fully self-realized but is at least further along than you are. Or, like you said, maybe someone puts in more effort and travels to major spiritual hubs where there's a better shot at finding a self-realized guru than, say, in Cleveland (though even Cleveland might not be totally ruled out) 😍

Reading through all these posts, I have to admit, all this talk about Indian traditions and general spiritualism starts to get a bit grating 😢
It isn't particularly healthy, is it? To become so deeply attached to a specific movement, or a single individual, or even a certain country, race, or philosophy... whatever you want to call it...
Everyone starts out with the same sentiment—that we are all equal, that we should all love and respect one another—but then, inevitably, the sectarianism begins. All these claims to exclusive rights and special status start cropping up.

I don't know... it just leaves me feeling quite confused. 😕

boldsailor2 said:.. those specific lines—they honestly make me twitch a little bit... 😁

.. and man, Bore—he’s got more ego than Bruca Leo 🤣

Basically, someone was clearly desperate to keep the whole group together while spreading that kind of propaganda... I don't think SP had much to do with it—it feels totally taken out of context...

Are you really sure it was taken out of context? Here is a conversation with the students...

Prabhupada: Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished. In this sahajiya party, then preaching will be finished. Siddha-pranali.
Tamala krsni: What does that mean, Srila Prabhupada, siddha-pranali?
Prabhupada: Siddha-pranali is nonsense. They have manufactured a siddha-pranali.
Ramesvara: [break] ...the initiation that you are given your siddhas, your eternal position.
Tamala krsni: There are some very strange notes. You should see those notes.
Ramesvara: Yes, I’ve read them all already.
Tamala krsni: You did?
Prabhupad They have learned IT fra Thes Radha-kunda babajis
Tamala krsni: From Radha-kunda babajis?
Prabhupada: Babajis, yes. After all, they’re fool, rascals, so whatever they say.

First off, calling the siddha-pranali process garbage and a fabrication makes zero sense to me. The six Goswamis, the followers of Caitany Mahaprabhu, maintained this process through a direct lineage right down to Bhaktisiddhant Saraswati. Gaura Kisora Das Babaj, Jagannatha Das Babaj, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura, Narottama Das Thakura... they all followed this process. So, I'm not sure why it's being labeled as fake. Even today, there are lineages directly linked—not just by shiksha, but by diksha—to the people I just listed. And now, the babajis from Radhakund, who actually follow a tradition older than ISKCON or even Gaudiy Math, are being called fools and rascals.

I'm not getting into why SP said what he said, nor do I want to retaliate against ISKCON in the same way. My point is simply that some things were preached that aren't correct or accurate, and you can't just blame everything on the disciples after SP passed away.

So, apparently, exclusive rights to uttama adikaryu are reserved solely for members of Indian lineages, for instance,

And yet, here we are, seeing everyone dancing side-by-side at the temple and during the Sunday feasts.

But I’m not making any excuses for anyone; sexism remains a massive, pervasive issue.
I think I touched upon all of this when I previously wrote about having a "hard heart."
Though, I suppose I could start listing things now too—sexism, and all that other stuff...

Honestly, is there any "spiritual following" out there that isn't plagued by sexism?

Innocent said:I'm not even part of ISKCON, nor am I defending anyone🙄
it's unbelievable
if anyone supported similar views, it was you.

Why all the fighting?

The way you spoke to him wasn't polite, but he does have a point when he claims women are categorized as less intelligent or as fallen (candala). Just look at the evidence—how many female gurus are there in ISKCON or the Theosophical Society?

It’s also interesting that this isn't the case with other Vaishnavism traditions, which have many women in their lineage who served as gurus. The idea that women are less intelligent doesn't come from Krishna. In fact, in the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says He is intelligence among women. So, how could women be less intelligent?