Is spirituality a form of personal growth?

Edward Foster57 said:QUOTE: You know what’s actually interesting here, friend.
And who exactly is trying to kill off their ego?
How can you even be sure that you're at the right stage—after having those few minutes or hours of pure, mindless experience—to actually survive without an ego?
QUOTE]

Look, anyone with half a brain feels like the ego is just dead weight. Why the hell are people so terrified of living without one? If you act from your ego, expect that energy to come back at you tenfold. But try acting without that massive "I'm a genius" complex? You'll finally feel how everything in nature actually clicks.
We're all born without an ego. Ever seen a baby struggle to survive just because they didn't have an ego?

Well, yeah, no kid survives on their own. They need a mom or a dad—or someone. You need someone to actually look after them, otherwise, they’re just food for the wolves or the worms pretty much immediately.

Brandon Hall88 said:I appreciate you being so upfront with me. It’s honestly rare to run into someone this sincere.
Compromises? The last ones are always the most dangerous. And I’m not talking about bending over backward for other people... I mean those compromises made against your own Self. 🙂
Courage isn't something you're just born with—it's learned. And true leadership? That only comes through the deep work of getting to know your Self.

Best,
Nirvana

So, how exactly does one learn courage?

Hannah Morris3 said:So, how exactly does one learn courage?

Buy a handgun.🙂 😁

Hannah Morris3 said:So, how exactly does one learn courage?

When you meditate—you really start to realize your consciousness can exist totally separate from your body😉--
then nothing really scares you anymore.🙂

boldsailor2 said:When you meditate—you really start to realize your consciousness can exist totally separate from your body😉--
then nothing really scares you anymore.🙂

That is spot on. Honestly, I don't even know how else to put it—achieving that level of precision is incredibly difficult. But yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. You articulated that perfectly.

I still have this one question rattling around in my head: back before World War II and during the war itself, those communists really sacrificed everything for their ideals. They were actually quite brave at times, I suppose. But here’s the thing—they didn't believe in any kind of afterlife, not even the Christian idea of resurrection. If you're familiar with the Marxist view of death, it's just... total. It's absolute nothingness. There isn't anything waiting on the other side.
I mean, at the end of the day, they were more than willing to die for their ideals!

boldsailor2 said:When you meditate—you really start to realize your consciousness can exist totally separate from your body😉--
then nothing really scares you anymore.🙂

As if... does nothing actually matter to you?
I’m not talking about that kind of bravado. I mean the courage required to show your weaknesses to others—even if it makes you look foolish—or the strength to hold your ground when you know it might hurt the people you love. Most importantly, I'm talking about the guts it takes to step out of your comfort zone and just deal with whatever happens next.

Hannah Morris3 said:So, how exactly does one learn courage?

It’s not by running away from what you see inside yourself or the chaos surrounding you.
It comes through steady, unflinching observation.
Stop dodging the new, stop fearing the unknown...

But more importantly, it’s about realizing you have absolutely nothing to lose. You can only ever "find" yourself. Everything else you cling to—your status, your possessions, your identity—it's just a hollow illusion that you've mistaken for reality. Once you see through the lie and realize those things aren't actually *you*, you realize there's nothing left to lose... because none of it was worth losing in the first place.
That’s when courage arrives on its own. It seeks you out; you don't hunt it down.

Though, I suppose you could start practicing.
It all boils down to "training." 🙂 Or, if you prefer, learning. 🙂

Brandon Hall88 said:It’s not by running away from what you see inside yourself or the chaos surrounding you.
It comes through steady, unflinching observation.
Stop dodging the new, stop fearing the unknown...

But more importantly, it’s about realizing you have absolutely nothing to lose. You can only ever "find" yourself. Everything else you cling to—your status, your possessions, your identity—it's just a hollow illusion that you've mistaken for reality. Once you see through the lie and realize those things aren't actually *you*, you realize there's nothing left to lose... because none of it was worth losing in the first place.
That’s when courage arrives on its own. It seeks you out; you don't hunt it down.

Though, I suppose you could start practicing.
It all boils down to "training." 🙂 Or, if you prefer, learning. 🙂

Care to elaborate on what this "training" actually looks like?

@Hannah Morris3

It’s actually quite simple.
Start small. Start with yourself. Admit your own "mistakes" and figure out the actual reasons behind them. Analyze them. But don't judge yourself. Once you've done the analysis, just observe... once everything is clear and dissected, simply face the conclusions you've reached.
Keep some kind of journal.
Identify your gravitational and levitational influences.
Gravitational—those people who weigh you down, pull you into a negative headspace, or trigger negative emotions even when you aren't looking for it.
Levitational—the ones who lift you up and give you strength...

You'll eventually realize you need to lean heavily on those levitational forces whenever a bad mood starts creeping in.

As for facing people, start there too, with the smaller things.
Speak up about minor things you usually keep to yourself. Pay attention to how it feels to actually say them out loud.
Do little things you've never done before. Stop stepping back for others or feeling guilty and ashamed because a friend or someone else is doing something.

So, yeah, start with the easy stuff... Don't jump straight into the heavy lifting.
Find two or three close friends and make a pact to be completely honest with one another.
Again, start with the small stuff...

That's basically it—just a few starting points for working on yourself.

Can't write much, I'm stuck at work... clients coming in every five minutes...

Best,
Nirvaan

Brandon Hall88 said:@Hannah Morris3

It’s actually quite simple.
Start small. Start with yourself. Admit your own "mistakes" and figure out the actual reasons behind them. Analyze them. But don't judge yourself. Once you've done the analysis, just observe... once everything is clear and dissected, simply face the conclusions you've reached.
Keep some kind of journal.
Identify your gravitational and levitational influences.
Gravitational—those people who weigh you down, pull you into a negative headspace, or trigger negative emotions even when you aren't looking for it.
Levitational—the ones who lift you up and give you strength...

You'll eventually realize you need to lean heavily on those levitational forces whenever a bad mood starts creeping in.

As for facing people, start there too, with the smaller things.
Speak up about minor things you usually keep to yourself. Pay attention to how it feels to actually say them out loud.
Do little things you've never done before. Stop stepping back for others or feeling guilty and ashamed because a friend or someone else is doing something.

So, yeah, start with the easy stuff... Don't jump straight into the heavy lifting.
Find two or three close friends and make a pact to be completely honest with one another.
Again, start with the small stuff...

That's basically it—just a few starting points for working on yourself.

Can't write much, I'm stuck at work... clients coming in every five minutes...

Best,
Nirvaan

Thanks for the reply—I’ll definitely give that a shot.
Sent you a DM.

Hannah Morris3 said:As if... does nothing actually matter to you?
I’m not talking about that kind of bravado. I mean the courage required to show your weaknesses to others—even if it makes you look foolish—or the strength to hold your ground when you know it might hurt the people you love. Most importantly, I'm talking about the guts it takes to step out of your comfort zone and just deal with whatever happens next.

The forums have taught me that some personal stuff shouldn't be shared here—people totally misinterpret things and I end up feeling like an idiot... so I won't go there 😉

Hannah Morris3 said:As if... does nothing actually matter to you?
I’m not talking about that kind of bravado. I mean the courage required to show your weaknesses to others—even if it makes you look foolish—or the strength to hold your ground when you know it might hurt the people you love. Most importantly, I'm talking about the guts it takes to step out of your comfort zone and just deal with whatever happens next.

That isn't courage, it's just being reckless. Don't cast pearls before swine😉. You should only give people what they can actually handle.

Hannah Morris3 said:As if... does nothing actually matter to you?
I’m not talking about that kind of bravado. I mean the courage required to show your weaknesses to others—even if it makes you look foolish—or the strength to hold your ground when you know it might hurt the people you love. Most importantly, I'm talking about the guts it takes to step out of your comfort zone and just deal with whatever happens next.

That isn't strength, it's weakness... true strength is doing the same thing without hurting anyone... "don't cut with the truth like a knife." There are always two ways to handle it.

Hannah Morris3 said:As if... does nothing actually matter to you?
I’m not talking about that kind of bravado. I mean the courage required to show your weaknesses to others—even if it makes you look foolish—or the strength to hold your ground when you know it might hurt the people you love. Most importantly, I'm talking about the guts it takes to step out of your comfort zone and just deal with whatever happens next.

What matters is internal surrender, not some fake external version. You need to be where you are—you can't run away because you can't escape yourself. That's the real issue—it's you, not your circumstances.😉 Change yourself and everything around you changes automatically, no matter where you are.

You could travel to the other side of the country... meditate in some cave... what's the point if your problems are traveling right along with you?😉

I still think a handgun is just more straightforward 😉 🥳

Or, you could always just go out and play rugby. It'd be a lot more productive than downloading stuff 😁

It really just comes down to a lack of life experience—that's all there is to it. You don't need any mantras, intense spiritual practices, or endless questioning to fix it. You just need time for things to finally click...

boldsailor2 said:The forums have taught me that some personal stuff shouldn't be shared here—people totally misinterpret things and I end up feeling like an idiot... so I won't go there 😉

That isn't courage, it's just being reckless. Don't cast pearls before swine😉. You should only give people what they can actually handle.

That isn't strength, it's weakness... true strength is doing the same thing without hurting anyone... "don't cut with the truth like a knife." There are always two ways to handle it.

What matters is internal surrender, not some fake external version. You need to be where you are—you can't run away because you can't escape yourself. That's the real issue—it's you, not your circumstances.😉 Change yourself and everything around you changes automatically, no matter where you are.

You could travel to the other side of the country... meditate in some cave... what's the point if your problems are traveling right along with you?😉

That isn't quite right; it sounds like a New Age cliché. If that were true, why would anyone ever need a guru or a community? Paramahansa Yogananda suggested that environmental influence often outweighs willpower (and I'm sure Swami might mention the importance of satsanga too, though I can't recall specifically)...

I’ve seen it happen plenty of times. Some things I couldn't fix on my own just vanished simply by changing my surroundings. Other issues popped up the moment I moved. You stick it out for a year or two, and then you slowly start to "transform." I suspect you felt the same way leaving a church or moving into a tight-knit community. This idea of purely internal change is a fairy tale. If it were that simple, we wouldn't have monasteries, ashrams, or sadhus, nor would there be such strict rules in most texts regarding yoga or spiritual practice.

Then again, I’m pretty easily swayed, so I’m probably not the best example. 😳 😁
But still, without having an anchor in a guru or a community, would the result be any different?

Pistol 👍

boldsailor2 said:It really just comes down to a lack of life experience—that's all there is to it. You don't need any mantras, intense spiritual practices, or endless questioning to fix it. You just need time for things to finally click...

I think sports are actually a great way to handle this. It’s basically a case of lethargy, and the best cure is staying active—preferably something high-intensity (which is why I bring up football). That’s just my take, though. Everyone is different and we can't all know what works for everyone else, but personally, and for many people I know, physical activity helped us more than spiritual pursuits ever did. If you're already too obsessed with your own head, diving deeper into spirituality just leads to more self-dramatization and spinning your wheels. Instead, go pull a double shift on a construction site until you're absolutely exhausted; suddenly, your problems seem pretty irrelevant compared to moving that next heavy crate.😁

Then comes the spirituality part. 😁

Some people are constantly running away from everything—thinking they’re being "detached"—but honestly? Their own minds are just pulling them in circles. Real detachment is an internal state; everything else is just a fairy tale. Sure, if your environment is toxic, you should get out. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about actually facing life's mess and dealing with it. It’s easy to just bolt for the woods, but look at the Bhagavad Gita. Krishna didn't tell Arjuna to go hide in the forest to meditate—he told him to stand up and fight 😉

As long as there's still this massive urge for sensory pleasure, running off into isolation and trying to suppress those desires is a huge mistake. You have to stay right here in the world and slowly transcend those experiences through Karma Yoga. Once we actually get bored of "sensory indulgence," then we'll be ready for isolation. Until then? No way. You'll just end up losing your mind even more.

boldsailor2 said:Some people are constantly running away from everything—thinking they’re being "detached"—but honestly? Their own minds are just pulling them in circles. Real detachment is an internal state; everything else is just a fairy tale. Sure, if your environment is toxic, you should get out. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about actually facing life's mess and dealing with it. It’s easy to just bolt for the woods, but look at the Bhagavad Gita. Krishna didn't tell Arjuna to go hide in the forest to meditate—he told him to stand up and fight 😉

As long as there's still this massive urge for sensory pleasure, running off into isolation and trying to suppress those desires is a huge mistake. You have to stay right here in the world and slowly transcend those experiences through Karma Yoga. Once we actually get bored of "sensory indulgence," then we'll be ready for isolation. Until then? No way. You'll just end up losing your mind even more.

Arjuna was a soldier with specific duties he had to fulfill. 😁

I mostly agree, but there are nuances.

For instance, among the disciples of Ramakrishna, there were some (I think Swami Shivanand) whom he told should never leave the ashram, because contact with the world would turn them into kids again. Then there was Swami Brahmanand, his closest student, whom he told wouldn't be harmed by marriage (he ended up marrying, having kids, and then faced some struggles afterward, in my opinion). Then you have Vivekananda, who lived in both extreme ascetic conditions and royal settings, being worshipped in mansions and palaces. Even he admitted that most other gurus back in India—who were big names with tons of followers—would probably crumble under those luxury conditions... And then there were the family-oriented followers, like Nag Mahasaya, one of the most respected students whom even Vivekananda looked up to; he used to sleep in trees just to avoid going home and facing his wife. 😁

So, there aren't universal rules. It depends heavily on the spiritual path. A Jnani like Vivekananda can afford more freedom because his sadhana is built on strength, whereas a Bhakta, whose practice relies on purity, has to follow much stricter guidelines.

Beyond that, there’s the classic Tantric division of three types of practitioners: the "best" ones shouldn't be touched by worldly conditions; the "heroic" type needs obstacles and challenges to progress; and the third (Pashu, or cattle) needs to avoid challenges entirely because they'll just get crushed by them. 😁

Because of that, I doubt any single rule applies to everyone. Only personal experience shows us what works for us. Even gurus are limited by their own experiences, so everyone is just telling their own version of the truth.

Well, you all certainly have a knack for handing out diagnoses here 😁 . I’m torn between defending myself—reminding you that I’m not some naive kid without a lick of life experience, and that reality isn't nearly as neatly organized as your little theoretical models—or just offering a polite thanks for your "help" 😘 . As boldsailor2 pointed out, sometimes it's just better to keep quiet on these forums 😳 😁

latifa@
I'm not even talking about you—just speaking generally...
😉

If you want me to be blunt, here it is—

Yoga practice is all about building strength on every level—which naturally leads to more confidence (and actual guts) along with mental peace and fulfillment. Anyone who's actually walking this path and staying consistent can tell you that—it’s definitely not just some abstract theory... 🙂

It’s a great chance to sit around and philosophize, since it’s clearly more important than actually helping anyone 😁