Is spirituality a form of personal growth?

Hannah Morris3 said:Is it actually possible to fully strip away society's influence from your psyche? Has anyone ever truly pulled that off?

I've run into a few people who have managed it.
It’s called solitude.
Not loneliness.

Hannah Morris3 said:Is it actually possible to fully strip away society's influence from your psyche? Has anyone ever truly pulled that off?

suicidal 🤣

Brandon Hall88 said:I've run into a few people who have managed it.
It’s called solitude.
Not loneliness.

I highly doubt they’re living in a place like NYC...
Honestly, I think achieving that state completely—and permanently—is impossible for any human being. We're social creatures by design. Sure, we have our own individual consciousness, but we also have fundamental human needs. If we "strip away" our humanity, what's left? Are we becoming something greater than human, or just something less?

Hannah Morris3 said:He wasn't talking about being lonely—he was claiming he isn't part of society. Which is absurd. We're all part of it, whether we like it or not—we either follow the rules imposed on us or face the consequences. Talking about some grand sense of freedom in this context feels like an illusion to me. The reality is simply that some societies are less repressive than others; as a woman, I’m well aware of that. America is actually doing alright. At least it's no longer illegal to be a vegetarian here. We're making progress. Though, I doubt they'd let some kid just sit under a tree and meditate for a year—like that little boy in Nepal... In that case, the authorities would move heaven and earth to stick that poor child into some "appropriate" institution.
You're only free inside your own head (if anyone is)—for now, at least, we can still think whatever we want. As for everything else? Forget it—unless you have the money (power) to buy yourself a little extra breathing room.

Look, it is true that it’s ABSURD. But honestly, I didn't take his words seriously at all, so I was just trying to look at a slightly more realistic angle.
Being truly isolated from society means you have to grow your own FOOD, make your own clothes, manufacture your own shoes, and generate your own power for heat.
If he's using a computer—and if he's actually using it—then he's part of a massive community involving Intel, AMD, and other giant corporations. His machine was likely built mostly in China, the software is probably a Microsoft OS, or if he's some kind of purist, maybe it's something from the GNU project...
Isolated from society? Please. He gets the electricity for that machine from a nuclear plant, a coal plant, or maybe some remote hydroelectric dam out in the sticks.
He pays for an internet subscription, a cell phone plan, or whatever else. To pay those bills, he has to show up somewhere every single day. And so on, and so forth.

Brandon Hall88 said:I've run into a few people who have managed it.
It’s called solitude.
Not loneliness.

I met one guy who ran the other way from all of it.

Hannah Morris3 said:I highly doubt they’re living in a place like NYC...
Honestly, I think achieving that state completely—and permanently—is impossible for any human being. We're social creatures by design. Sure, we have our own individual consciousness, but we also have fundamental human needs. If we "strip away" our humanity, what's left? Are we becoming something greater than human, or just something less?

The real question is, what would you actually want to be?
A human being, or something more—or perhaps something less?
And more importantly, what do you think you actually are?

We all carry this deep-seated fear of losing a piece of our humanity. But then again, none of us are truly "human." We're just performing the role. We tremble at the thought of losing something we don't even possess, except in our most daring dreams...

What do you even have left to lose, Hannah Morris3?
What part of yourself would you fight to keep, and why?

Brandon Hall88 said:The real question is, what would you actually want to be?
A human being, or something more—or perhaps something less?
And more importantly, what do you think you actually are?

We all carry this deep-seated fear of losing a piece of our humanity. But then again, none of us are truly "human." We're just performing the role. We tremble at the thought of losing something we don't even possess, except in our most daring dreams...

What do you even have left to lose, Hannah Morris3?
What part of yourself would you fight to keep, and why?

I don't have any easy answers for you. Honestly, I could give you an answer right now, but if you asked me again tomorrow, my perspective would likely have shifted.
As far as I can tell, we are human because we inhabit human bodies—that much is certain. I assume there's some sort of purpose to being human, maybe gaining specific experiences before we eventually return to the Source (wherever that may be).
What would I hold onto? Love—compassion, gratitude, the ability to fall in love. Knowledge. And a sense of humor.

If you are truly investigating—really questioning, exploring, getting to know yourself—then it’s perfectly natural that you won't be able to provide an answer that satisfies these questions for centuries to come.
But if you apply that same level of inquiry to your own being, you realize you can only give an answer *now*. It doesn't matter what you'll say tomorrow. Your answer, just like these questions, exists only in the present moment, specifically for you, right here, right now. Because you only live in this exact moment.
Non-attachment is the key. And I don't mean "I won't get attached tomorrow or the day after." Tomorrow and the day after are irrelevant. What matters is what you think, feel, and know in this very instant.

How much does your current perception grasp and understand? Are we even "human" in that sense? When your perception shifts—when you expand it—the question arises: are we actually humans, and if so, what exactly are we?
We probably are humans for some reason, given the label we use. If you are simply a human being and nothing else... 😁... to which Source will you return, if that Source isn't "humanity" or "man"?
If the Source isn't that, then what is it?
And if the Source is that, then what are you?
Questions that demand intense contemplation... and ultimately, an answer. Perhaps that is the whole point... ???

Holding onto anything whatsoever prevents you from truly knowing yourself.
If you are clinging to something, how can you ever return to the Source?
Perhaps the Source doesn't possess those qualities you listed; maybe they are just traits your mind wants to have, but you, as a "future" Source, don't actually hold those qualities in your core!?!
That requires genuine self-discovery.
That is why all these "spiritual" techniques and spiritual efforts are essentially fabrications...
Perhaps you, as Essence, can adopt all those qualities and use them as tools for discovery, but you aren't any of them!
Perhaps you aren't even what you think you are right now... !!!

I'm saying perhaps... 🙂
The answer has to be yours...

Brandon Hall88 said:If you are truly investigating—really questioning, exploring, getting to know yourself—then it’s perfectly natural that you won't be able to provide an answer that satisfies these questions for centuries to come.
But if you apply that same level of inquiry to your own being, you realize you can only give an answer *now*. It doesn't matter what you'll say tomorrow. Your answer, just like these questions, exists only in the present moment, specifically for you, right here, right now. Because you only live in this exact moment.
Non-attachment is the key. And I don't mean "I won't get attached tomorrow or the day after." Tomorrow and the day after are irrelevant. What matters is what you think, feel, and know in this very instant.

How much does your current perception grasp and understand? Are we even "human" in that sense? When your perception shifts—when you expand it—the question arises: are we actually humans, and if so, what exactly are we?
We probably are humans for some reason, given the label we use. If you are simply a human being and nothing else... 😁... to which Source will you return, if that Source isn't "humanity" or "man"?
If the Source isn't that, then what is it?
And if the Source is that, then what are you?
Questions that demand intense contemplation... and ultimately, an answer. Perhaps that is the whole point... ???

Holding onto anything whatsoever prevents you from truly knowing yourself.
If you are clinging to something, how can you ever return to the Source?
Perhaps the Source doesn't possess those qualities you listed; maybe they are just traits your mind wants to have, but you, as a "future" Source, don't actually hold those qualities in your core!?!
That requires genuine self-discovery.
That is why all these "spiritual" techniques and spiritual efforts are essentially fabrications...
Perhaps you, as Essence, can adopt all those qualities and use them as tools for discovery, but you aren't any of them!
Perhaps you aren't even what you think you are right now... !!!

I'm saying perhaps... 🙂
The answer has to be yours...

Maybe...
Or maybe "now" is just a compromise.

🙂
And maybe, just maybe, making compromises is actually a sign of weakness toward the Self.
Compromising with the world—with the people around you—isn't necessarily a bad thing. There’s a certain level of pure, human decency in finding middle ground. But compromising with the Self... that might be the very thing standing in the way of true self-discovery.
I don't know... I'm just wondering... 🙂

What’s your take? Do you feel like your own compromises are keeping you from truly knowing who you are?

No way!

Of course they’re holding me back. Compromise is just playing it safe—which usually means taking tiny, insignificant steps. Making any real move requires a level of courage I haven't quite mastered yet. Or leadership, as they put it. I'm still lacking that too.

I appreciate you being so upfront with me. It’s honestly rare to run into someone this sincere.
Compromises? The last ones are always the most dangerous. And I’m not talking about bending over backward for other people... I mean those compromises made against your own Self. 🙂
Courage isn't something you're just born with—it's learned. And true leadership? That only comes through the deep work of getting to know your Self.

Best,
Nirvana

Nancy Thompson3 said:No way!

Could you elaborate on that?

Brandon Hall88 said:Could you elaborate on that?

I suppose I could.

Fair enough, this whole discussion makes sense. But just because I rely on my laptop or electricity doesn't mean I'm inherently interdependent with others. Similarly, participating in daily life shouldn't require me to adopt whatever dominant value system happens to be in place at the moment.

The fact that I work and earn money isn't about being conditioned by anyone else; it’s about being conditioned by my own Self. No one is forcing you to wake up at 8:00 AM, put on a tie, and head to the office—you’re the one pushing yourself to do that.
Nobody is forcing you to get up at 7:00 AM, throw on coveralls, and head to the car wash, either. You choose to do it, or you're driven by your own needs rather than someone else's.
Furthermore, absolutely nobody is forcing you to say hi to your neighbor or smile at the cashier. Those are entirely your own choices, even if they carry certain consequences (like your neighbor refusing to lend you their lawnmower later).

If you drive a nice Mercedes because you truly believe in its quality, comfort, and reliability, there's nothing wrong with that. It’s also not a problem if you drive it just so people will say, "Look, he's driving the latest Mercedes," but that's honestly a bit pathetic...

A question for Nancy Thompson3: why do you think Osho drove all those things he did, especially the gold ones?

Noah Sanchez7 said:Fair enough, this whole discussion makes sense. But just because I rely on my laptop or electricity doesn't mean I'm inherently interdependent with others. Similarly, participating in daily life shouldn't require me to adopt whatever dominant value system happens to be in place at the moment.

The fact that I work and earn money isn't about being conditioned by anyone else; it’s about being conditioned by my own Self. No one is forcing you to wake up at 8:00 AM, put on a tie, and head to the office—you’re the one pushing yourself to do that.
Nobody is forcing you to get up at 7:00 AM, throw on coveralls, and head to the car wash, either. You choose to do it, or you're driven by your own needs rather than someone else's.
Furthermore, absolutely nobody is forcing you to say hi to your neighbor or smile at the cashier. Those are entirely your own choices, even if they carry certain consequences (like your neighbor refusing to lend you their lawnmower later).

If you drive a nice Mercedes because you truly believe in its quality, comfort, and reliability, there's nothing wrong with that. It’s also not a problem if you drive it just so people will say, "Look, he's driving the latest Mercedes," but that's honestly a bit pathetic...

A question for Nancy Thompson3: why do you think Osho drove all those things he did, especially the gold ones?

It’s for the exact same reason wealthy Romans loved flaunting their gold. It's because he was just someone who rose from nothing—someone who jumped from rags to riches. I guess there isn't any other explanation. Anything else is just pure self-delusion.

Nancy Thompson3 said:It’s for the exact same reason wealthy Romans loved flaunting their gold. It's because he was just someone who rose from nothing—someone who jumped from rags to riches. I guess there isn't any other explanation. Anything else is just pure self-delusion.

Look, if you'll let me, I have a different take on this...
Everything there was to "unmask," Osho already unmasked. There isn't a question he won't answer—and by that, of course, I don't mean things like "what's the circumference of the sun" or "how many microchips are in a smartphone," topics where you clearly hold expert status.
Furthermore, since he answered all those questions, he naturally reached a certain level of realization. The real question is: what comes after that point? If it's nothingness, fine. Total void, whatever.
But when you actually arrive at that void, what then? You can choose to stay there and stop caring about material things entirely, or you can simply enjoy the material world while you're still living in it.
I think he chose the latter.
And he did it with, I'd say, a certain refined taste—complete with a bit of a rock 'n' roll attitude. Like, "Oh, you guys are flexing your gold? A single gold bar? Watch this, I'm going to build myself a car out of gold... and not just one, but five."

Do you see where I'm coming from, Nancy?

Noah Sanchez7 said:Look, if you'll let me, I have a different take on this...
Everything there was to "unmask," Osho already unmasked. There isn't a question he won't answer—and by that, of course, I don't mean things like "what's the circumference of the sun" or "how many microchips are in a smartphone," topics where you clearly hold expert status.
Furthermore, since he answered all those questions, he naturally reached a certain level of realization. The real question is: what comes after that point? If it's nothingness, fine. Total void, whatever.
But when you actually arrive at that void, what then? You can choose to stay there and stop caring about material things entirely, or you can simply enjoy the material world while you're still living in it.
I think he chose the latter.
And he did it with, I'd say, a certain refined taste—complete with a bit of a rock 'n' roll attitude. Like, "Oh, you guys are flexing your gold? A single gold bar? Watch this, I'm going to build myself a car out of gold... and not just one, but five."

Do you see where I'm coming from, Nancy?

I get what you're trying to say, but I think you've got it all wrong.
First off, I really wouldn't have minded if he were some MAGICIAN who could actually materialize 100 Rolls-Royces out of thin air. But he wasn't. He bought Rolls-Royces. They were manufactured in Rolls-Royce factories, and he didn't earn the money to buy them; it was just given to him by idiots he managed to brainwash.
Second, he spent it on mindless sheep that he didn't create either; he just seduced them through pure manipulation.
Third, enjoying material comforts and luxury aren't the same thing.

As for having all the answers, I guess we could say the same about Master John or Quincy. Just blathering away doesn't mean you're actually answering anything. Being a loudmouth and making stuff up isn't the same as KNOWING.

Regarding the microchips and the size of the sun... yeah. That's easy stuff for someone who has mastered matter. Especially since matter is basically woven into an information matrix via spin modes within the quantum vacuum. Whatever you want to know, the universe will tell you. Just like it told Tesla or Schauberger.

Now, just compare the lives of Tesla, Schauberger, or even Rudolf Steiner, to the chaotic mess left by Gurdjieff and Osh, and you'll see the difference between a spiritual being and a complete fraud.

QUOTE: You know what’s actually interesting here, friend.
And who exactly is trying to kill off their ego?
How can you even be sure that you're at the right stage—after having those few minutes or hours of pure, mindless experience—to actually survive without an ego?
QUOTE]

Look, anyone with half a brain feels like the ego is just dead weight. Why the hell are people so terrified of living without one? If you act from your ego, expect that energy to come back at you tenfold. But try acting without that massive "I'm a genius" complex? You'll finally feel how everything in nature actually clicks.
We're all born without an ego. Ever seen a baby struggle to survive just because they didn't have an ego?