What's the point of Zen koans?

A goose in a bottle... Rika, a high-ranking official from the Tang dynasty, poses a question to
Zen Master Nan-zen:
- Long ago, there was a man who kept a goose in a bottle. It grew larger and larger
until it could no longer fit through the opening; he didn't want to break the bottle, nor did he want to
harm the goose—how would you get it out?
The Master shouted: - Official!
To which Rika immediately replied: - Yes!
- There, it's out! - said Nan-zen

Comments....

Everyone’s going to have their own take on this—here’s mine:
Look, Rika is just being foolish—a total goose—asking questions that don't matter. The problem itself is non-existent; it happened a long time ago, it's gone, and therefore, it doesn't require a solution.
The point? Don't waste your energy on old problems that serve no purpose in the present moment.

The point is always subjective for everyone else—but for a student? For a student, the point is always whatever the teacher says it is.

That’s none of my business.

It all boils down to how you choose to see things😁

placidranger said:Everyone’s going to have their own take on this—here’s mine:
Look, Rika is just being foolish—a total goose—asking questions that don't matter. The problem itself is non-existent; it happened a long time ago, it's gone, and therefore, it doesn't require a solution.
The point? Don't waste your energy on old problems that serve no purpose in the present moment.

I have to admit, I haven't met a single Zen practitioner yet whose vibe I could truly "get," so I'm not sure if Zen is just sophisticated nonsense or if there's some deeper meaning behind it.
Still, your explanation resonates with me most (though I won't call it logical, because I know all those spirituality enthusiasts will jump down my throat if they hear I think Zen is meant to confuse people or weaken the mind).

Oh, here we go again with this typical New Age relativism where everything is suddenly up for debate.

It always follows the same tired pattern: it depends on this, it depends on that... they'll invent any excuse just to avoid admitting that things actually depend on them. 😉

Ryan Wilson2 said:Oh, here we go again with this typical New Age relativism where everything is suddenly up for debate.

It always follows the same tired pattern: it depends on this, it depends on that... they'll invent any excuse just to avoid admitting that things actually depend on them. 😉

Man, I’d wipe you off the face of the earth if I could🙂 ...but who exactly am I supposed to be waiting on to let me do it? 🙄

ambereagle642 said:Man, I’d wipe you off the face of the earth if I could🙂 ...but who exactly am I supposed to be waiting on to let me do it? 🙄

I have already made my position quite clear regarding these hollow, circular questions that lead absolutely nowhere. Besides, there is an entire separate thread dedicated to spirituality for those who simply enjoy the sound of their own voices talking about it.

Douglas Brown4 said:A goose in a bottle... Rika, a high-ranking official from the Tang dynasty, poses a question to
Zen Master Nan-zen:
- Long ago, there was a man who kept a goose in a bottle. It grew larger and larger
until it could no longer fit through the opening; he didn't want to break the bottle, nor did he want to
harm the goose—how would you get it out?
The Master shouted: - Official!
To which Rika immediately replied: - Yes!
- There, it's out! - said Nan-zen

Comments....

Let's look at it this way: A teacher tries to guide a student.
Did they succeed? That doesn't depend on the teacher; it depends entirely on the student.

🧐

boldsailor2 said:

"The whole point of Zen is walking that razor-thin edge of the present moment— you have to be so incredibly, absolutely present that there’s simply no room left for any problems, or suffering, or anything else you aren't really being in your core essence. In the present moment—where time just doesn't exist—all those problems of yours just melt away. Suffering needs time to exist, and it just can't survive in
the present. To pull their students' focus away from the concept of time, the great Rinzai Zen master would often just raise a finger and quietly ask: 'What is missing right now?' It’s such a powerful question—it doesn't even need an answer from your logical mind. It’s designed to pull your attention deeper into the present moment. There's a similar question in the Zen tradition: 'If not now, when?'..."

Eckhart Tolle: The Power of Now 😍

And then some guy from India would chime in, claiming satori is nothing more than savikalpa samadhi—just a temporary experience. He'd argue that the witness state they're describing is just paramatma, rather than the Absolute, where the witness state encompasses the entire creation instead of just one's own self. 😳

Of course—Sri Aurobindo 😁
followers are right, they just don't realize what they're actually talking about. 🤣 😬

boldsailor2 said:

"The whole point of Zen is walking that razor-thin edge of the present moment— you have to be so incredibly, absolutely present that there’s simply no room left for any problems, or suffering, or anything else you aren't really being in your core essence. In the present moment—where time just doesn't exist—all those problems of yours just melt away. Suffering needs time to exist, and it just can't survive in
the present. To pull their students' focus away from the concept of time, the great Rinzai Zen master would often just raise a finger and quietly ask: 'What is missing right now?' It’s such a powerful question—it doesn't even need an answer from your logical mind. It’s designed to pull your attention deeper into the present moment. There's a similar question in the Zen tradition: 'If not now, when?'..."

Eckhart Tolle: The Power of Now 😍

Well. I guess instead of all that, he should have just used some decent American street slang for a koan: "I don't give a damn about your goose."
It might be more understandable and simpler, maybe.

swiftcobra15 said:

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Help?
So:
"I really want Piece A. Now, should I grab it or let it go?"
Typical Zen cliché:
"It's right there in Pif."

Not much help there, I guess.

Douglas Brown4 said:Well. I guess instead of all that, he should have just used some decent American street slang for a koan: "I don't give a damn about your goose."
It might be more understandable and simpler, maybe.

Or maybe, "I don't give a rat's ass about your goose." 😛

But it isn't 🙄

Jason Johnson4 said:Or maybe, "I don't give a rat's ass about your goose." 😛

But it isn't 🙄

Ivy doesn't care about Myrtle. 😬
But it isn't 😁

Fair enough. So if it's not that kind of pain, what is it then?

"...the goose is out there—it was never actually stuck inside the bottle...🙂..just like us. We’re outside, too; we were never trapped in some glass container to begin with. That feeling of being stuck or limited? It’s just a glitch caused by a wrong idea. There isn't even a "problem" of how to escape your head (the bottle) in the first place... when you realize you're the observer, you see you were never "inside"—you've always been out here, we just aren't paying attention most of the time..🙂"

boldsailor2 said:"...the goose is out there—it was never actually stuck inside the bottle...🙂..just like us. We’re outside, too; we were never trapped in some glass container to begin with. That feeling of being stuck or limited? It’s just a glitch caused by a wrong idea. There isn't even a "problem" of how to escape your head (the bottle) in the first place... when you realize you're the observer, you see you were never "inside"—you've always been out here, we just aren't paying attention most of the time..🙂"

Exactly. Try telling that to a goose nesting in a bottle or a prisoner behind bars.
Unfortunately, if my intuition is correct, I’m starting to pick up on a certain Zen practitioner sensibility here: those people are lost causes.

... seriously, what kind of moron tries to shove a goose into a bottle? 😬 😂
We need to file a lawsuit with the Animal Rights Foundation—get that guy held accountable for this nonsense 😠

boldsailor2 said:... seriously, what kind of moron tries to shove a goose into a bottle? 😬 😂
We need to file a lawsuit with the Animal Rights Foundation—get that guy held accountable for this nonsense 😠

Nobody is shoving a goose into a bottle. It's just like how nobody shoves a ship into a bottle. It grows inside. Much like how a ship fits itself into a bottle.
Oh, right. The Japanese don't really get the whole ship-in-a-bottle thing. They prefer arranging stones in their gardens.