What's the point of Zen koans?

Douglas Brown4 said:🧐

🧐

🧐
Help?
So:
"I really want Piece A. Now, should I grab it or let it go?"
Typical Zen cliché:
"It's right there in Pif."

Not much help there, I guess.

🧐
Help?
So:
"I really want Piece A. Now, should I grab it or let it go?"
Typical Zen cliché:
"It's right there in Pif."

Not much help there, I guess.
🧐
Help?
So:
"I really want Piece A. Now, should I grab it or let it go?"
Typical Zen cliché:
"It's right there in Pif."

Not much help there, I guess.

There are endless rational explanations out there...

...yet every single one falls short—it's always a miss...

Does it actually have a point?
I don't know much about these Koans, but it feels to me like if the goal is to confuse you, distract you, or weaken the mind—all that talk about how "the present moment is what matters"... then maybe the point is just a mental exercise to reach something. But realized truth has this quality of being permanent. When I try to think in terms of "permanent categories" or lasting values, this whole idea of "now" seems to slip away from me...😁

"Don't look for geese where they don't belong"😁

swiftcobra15 said:

🧐
Help?
So:
"I really want Piece A. Now, should I grab it or let it go?"
Typical Zen cliché:
"It's right there in Pif."

Not much help there, I guess.
🧐
Help?
So:
"I really want Piece A. Now, should I grab it or let it go?"
Typical Zen cliché:
"It's right there in Pif."

Not much help there, I guess.

Help?
So:
"I really want Piece A. Now, should I grab it or let it go?"
Typical Zen cliché:
"It's right there in Pif."

Not much help there, I guess.

... and every single one falls short—it's a miss ...

Understood. I suppose it’s much easier for the crazies in an asylum to see it. You know how they operate:
They fixate on some idea in their head, and then they expect you to engage with them using that specific logic. You basically have to play mind reader, otherwise they mock you for being clueless.
It’s somewhat like when the triangle asks Alexandra to list about thirty of her feminine attributes.
And now she has to guess what he was actually thinking. The solution back then was quite simple: he just wanted her "pussy" (to use those words).
Maybe Zen reminds me of people like that. We even had a guy here who thought exactly like this. Identical. He isn't around now.

Douglas Brown4 said:I have to admit, I haven't met a single Zen practitioner yet whose vibe I could truly "get," so I'm not sure if Zen is just sophisticated nonsense or if there's some deeper meaning behind it.
Still, your explanation resonates with me most (though I won't call it logical, because I know all those spirituality enthusiasts will jump down my throat if they hear I think Zen is meant to confuse people or weaken the mind).

There is one hurdle when trying to "understand" a Koan that is incredibly difficult to clear.
The reality is that every Koan describes a pivotal moment or situation experienced by someone attempting to reach the core of Zen. The mental state of the individuals described in a Koan isn't our typical everyday mindset, which is why approaching them feels so out of reach. A Koan is essentially just a tool, but our standard way of thinking prevents us from even picking it up.
In that sense, Zen teachers don't really focus on the specific cases (the Koans themselves) so much as they try to help the student evolve their mind.
That said, nobody is stopping us from having a little fun with it.😉

Joseph Davis5 said:There is one hurdle when trying to "understand" a Koan that is incredibly difficult to clear.
The reality is that every Koan describes a pivotal moment or situation experienced by someone attempting to reach the core of Zen. The mental state of the individuals described in a Koan isn't our typical everyday mindset, which is why approaching them feels so out of reach. A Koan is essentially just a tool, but our standard way of thinking prevents us from even picking it up.
In that sense, Zen teachers don't really focus on the specific cases (the Koans themselves) so much as they try to help the student evolve their mind.
That said, nobody is stopping us from having a little fun with it.😉

So, Zen is essentially playing with the mind? Fine. I guess I'll play then.
Actually, this "madman syndrome" (not talking about Zen specifically right now) shows up even in old folk jokes and riddles.
It’s like: "It looks one way but isn't, it's like this but lacks that, it has this but isn't that—what is it?"
And then some redneck laughs because you can't figure it out. I suppose maybe only Nina Kulagina or Ingo could solve it, unless you were born in that specific rural village.
Or: A guy asks someone some question about the shaving he's doing inside his own head. And the fufica finds him charmingly clever because, hey, nobody else knows the answer but him. I guess I could ask something like:
"What is it? It goes to Silba, looks like Kriger from a western, and resembles a toothpick"?
Now, go ahead and guess.

Come on, guess! Is it Dolce & Gaban or Benetton?"

What kind of goose are we even talking about? What bottle? And what Master?

Douglas Brown4 said:A goose in a bottle... Rika, a high-ranking official from the Tang dynasty, poses a question to
Zen Master Nan-zen:
- Long ago, there was a man who kept a goose in a bottle. It grew larger and larger
until it could no longer fit through the opening; he didn't want to break the bottle, nor did he want to
harm the goose—how would you get it out?
The Master shouted: - Official!
To which Rika immediately replied: - Yes!
- There, it's out! - said Nan-zen

Comments....

hehehe 😁
good koan: I haven't heard that one before😁

Douglas Brown4 said:I have to admit, I haven't met a single Zen practitioner yet whose vibe I could truly "get," so I'm not sure if Zen is just sophisticated nonsense or if there's some deeper meaning behind it.
Still, your explanation resonates with me most (though I won't call it logical, because I know all those spirituality enthusiasts will jump down my throat if they hear I think Zen is meant to confuse people or weaken the mind).

Zen is meaningless babble.😉
Where can meaning possibly be found in eternity (the absolute)?😁

boldsailor2 said:

"The whole point of Zen is walking that razor-thin edge of the present moment— you have to be so incredibly, absolutely present that there’s simply no room left for any problems, or suffering, or anything else you aren't really being in your core essence. In the present moment—where time just doesn't exist—all those problems of yours just melt away. Suffering needs time to exist, and it just can't survive in
the present. To pull their students' focus away from the concept of time, the great Rinzai Zen master would often just raise a finger and quietly ask: 'What is missing right now?' It’s such a powerful question—it doesn't even need an answer from your logical mind. It’s designed to pull your attention deeper into the present moment. There's a similar question in the Zen tradition: 'If not now, when?'..."

Eckhart Tolle: The Power of Now 😍

THE PRESENT MOMENT DOES NOT EXIST
WHAT "exists" IS NOT NOW😉
Therefore, the present moment lies beyond existence itself.😁

Douglas Brown4 said:A goose in a bottle... Rika, a high-ranking official from the Tang dynasty, poses a question to
Zen Master Nan-zen:
- Long ago, there was a man who kept a goose in a bottle. It grew larger and larger
until it could no longer fit through the opening; he didn't want to break the bottle, nor did he want to
harm the goose—how would you get it out?
The Master shouted: - Official!
To which Rika immediately replied: - Yes!
- There, it's out! - said Nan-zen

Comments....

Hannah Wilson3's materialistic commentary:
The way I see it—the "goose in the bottle" koan refers to a chemical equation.
It's a trick; how to shove an egg through the neck of a bottle that is narrower than the egg itself.
The egg is, of course, the goose (in embryo).
Light a piece of paper, drop it into the bottom of the bottle; the smoke rising creates a vacuum that pulls the egg into the bottle.
Even though it’s wider than the neck, it ends up inside the bottle.
The Zen koan "the goose in the bottle" is just an oral transmission of a chemistry riddle that got lost through retelling.

Karen Sanchez19 said:Zen is meaningless babble.😉
Where can meaning possibly be found in eternity (the absolute)?😁

THE PRESENT MOMENT DOES NOT EXIST
WHAT "exists" IS NOT NOW😉
Therefore, the present moment lies beyond existence itself.😁

It isn't quite like that, though it does sound quite poetic. "What is Now?"—that would be a fine koan.
Best regards!

electricdrifter68 said:It isn't quite like that, though it does sound quite poetic. "What is Now?"—that would be a fine koan.
Best regards!

And how exactly do you know it isn't?

The Moderator is basically like a Zen Koan. They just wipe away the present moment. A total Deus ex machina.
Can we maybe start a new topic?🙂

A goose in a bottle... Rika, a high-ranking official from the Tang Dynasty, once asked Zen master Nansen:
"Long ago, there was a man who kept a goose in a bottle. It grew larger and larger until it couldn't get out anymore—but he didn't want to break the bottle, nor did he want to hurt the goose. How would you get it out?"
The master shouted: "Officer!"
To which Rika immediately replied: "Yes!"
"There—it's out!" said Nansen.

This describes a paradoxical situation where two opposing states exist in our consciousness at the exact same time.

Is there a similar dialectical system in Western philosophy?
The philosopher Hegel set up his dialectical system by pitting a thesis against an antithesis, which together create a synthesis. His system applies to everything—from the micro-world of tiny particles to the macrocosm of planets and galaxies.

The artist Escher captured this state perfectly in his paintings.

How could this system be applied to the world of spirituality?

Self psychology provides the answer. It’s a modern form of psychoanalysis that focuses on the conflict between the Self and the Ne-j.
Self psychology is actually the first scientifically proven theory that links our sense of identity (the Self) to the state of non-duality—that oneness between the Self and the other.
Even though the Self and the other seem to create a conflict, they actually form a meaningful whole where both sides define, complement, and create one another. According to Zen Buddhism, reaching a state of unity (satori) means resolving that paradox—basically solving a situation where it looks like there's only one possible solution.
Modern physics also doesn't separate the observer from the observed anymore; they function as one complete system. To accept this kind of paradox, you have to let go of the illusion that there's only one way to solve a problem. It means moving beyond the "Self" and stepping toward the "other."
C. G. Jung put it this way:
"A man must surrender his Ego to find his true Self."
That’s really the only way we can move past narcissism and actually feel our spirit...

🙂

Nothing new under the sun...

...the mountains shook and Violeta flew out.😁

boldsailor2 said:A goose in a bottle... Rika, a high-ranking official from the Tang Dynasty, once asked Zen master Nansen:
"Long ago, there was a man who kept a goose in a bottle. It grew larger and larger until it couldn't get out anymore—but he didn't want to break the bottle, nor did he want to hurt the goose. How would you get it out?"
The master shouted: "Officer!"
To which Rika immediately replied: "Yes!"
"There—it's out!" said Nansen.

This describes a paradoxical situation where two opposing states exist in our consciousness at the exact same time.

Is there a similar dialectical system in Western philosophy?
The philosopher Hegel set up his dialectical system by pitting a thesis against an antithesis, which together create a synthesis. His system applies to everything—from the micro-world of tiny particles to the macrocosm of planets and galaxies.

The artist Escher captured this state perfectly in his paintings.

How could this system be applied to the world of spirituality?

Self psychology provides the answer. It’s a modern form of psychoanalysis that focuses on the conflict between the Self and the Ne-j.
Self psychology is actually the first scientifically proven theory that links our sense of identity (the Self) to the state of non-duality—that oneness between the Self and the other.
Even though the Self and the other seem to create a conflict, they actually form a meaningful whole where both sides define, complement, and create one another. According to Zen Buddhism, reaching a state of unity (satori) means resolving that paradox—basically solving a situation where it looks like there's only one possible solution.
Modern physics also doesn't separate the observer from the observed anymore; they function as one complete system. To accept this kind of paradox, you have to let go of the illusion that there's only one way to solve a problem. It means moving beyond the "Self" and stepping toward the "other."
C. G. Jung put it this way:
"A man must surrender his Ego to find his true Self."
That’s really the only way we can move past narcissism and actually feel our spirit...

🙂

Nothing new under the sun...

...the mountains shook and Violeta flew out.😁

Why are you being so snarky? Is something bothering you? Did Violeta hit you right in the Achilles heel?
You haven't actually solved anything; you've just piled on psychological jargon that doesn't mean a thing. Even if you think you're presenting an objective observation, I don't see why you had to ruin the explanation by acting like a narcissist, crying about how Violeta has cursed your fate. 😬

No matter how much you try to deny duality through psychology, it still exists. Sure, duality stems from unity—the monad—but it remains a very real expression. What happened with the goose? Schrödinger's cat? The superposition of two states? Things we resolve via Deus ex machina (or perhaps Alexander the Great) by simply cutting the Gordian knot instead of actually untying it.

You're projecting a whole picture on me—look, I've got nothing against you personally 😉
...I'm just cutting things short... don't take me too seriously 😉

btw I'm not denying anything... you're projecting again 🙂
just let that go 😵

boldsailor2 said:You're projecting a whole picture on me—look, I've got nothing against you personally 😉
...I'm just cutting things short... don't take me too seriously 😉

btw I'm not denying anything... you're projecting again 🙂
just let that go 😵

Deal!

Duality is basically just horizontal movement. It’s this constant, endless blending happening along a flat plane where one thought just chases the next in a never-ending loop, right? Every single argument eventually bumps into its own counter-argument, creating this infinite cycle.
The second you manage to block that entire process—just cut through the knot—consciousness hits a standstill, and voila! We find ourselves right in the middle of singularity.
Since consciousness is inherently dualistic—you know, that whole split-mind or rationalist way of thinking—it just can't actually inhabit that state.
So, we're looking at two distinct states here: by blocking the rational mind, you clear a path straight into singularity. But then, once that singularity fades, consciousness just "reboots" and we're right back where we started...
For people who aren't quite "ready" for it, singularity feels a lot like "non-consciousness."
A Koan is essentially a machine, a specific procedure or a way to dismantle consciousness so you can finally land in that state of non-consciousness.😬

Elizabeth Carter6 said:Duality is basically just horizontal movement. It’s this constant, endless blending happening along a flat plane where one thought just chases the next in a never-ending loop, right? Every single argument eventually bumps into its own counter-argument, creating this infinite cycle.
The second you manage to block that entire process—just cut through the knot—consciousness hits a standstill, and voila! We find ourselves right in the middle of singularity.
Since consciousness is inherently dualistic—you know, that whole split-mind or rationalist way of thinking—it just can't actually inhabit that state.
So, we're looking at two distinct states here: by blocking the rational mind, you clear a path straight into singularity. But then, once that singularity fades, consciousness just "reboots" and we're right back where we started...
For people who aren't quite "ready" for it, singularity feels a lot like "non-consciousness."
A Koan is essentially a machine, a specific procedure or a way to dismantle consciousness so you can finally land in that state of non-consciousness.😬

I suppose I agree. Even in computer science, you have loop breaks or exception handling (like catch or throw...). There has to be a mechanism to exit a dead loop within the mental framework too. But I don't think it works by denying the loop exists; rather, it's about recognizing how useless the loop actually is. So, maybe it would be more efficient to use street slang and just say, "Stop messing with me," instead of making excuses and trying to pretend the loop isn't there.

At the exact moment that process is blocked, consciousness halts, and voila!, we find ourselves in singularity.
Since consciousness is inherently dualistic—meaning a split mind—it can't actually inhabit that state.
So, we have two states: by blocking the intellect, the path to singularity opens up. Once singularity ends, consciousness "reboots," and we are back at the start...
For those who aren't "ready," singularity feels like "non-consciousness."
A Koan is essentially a machine, a procedure designed to cancel out consciousness so one might arrive at non-consciousness.😬

An inefficient machine, I guess. I've seen that play out with Zenovac practitioners in real life.

Karen Sanchez19 said:And how exactly do you know it isn't?

If I actually possessed the answer, wouldn't the very fact that I knew it mean I wouldn't be searching for it in the first place?