What's the point of Zen koans?

Elizabeth Carter6 said:No way, Seb, seriously... if you even have a clue?
If you do... or maybe you don't?😉

Goodness, if I were to follow Seb, I wouldn't move even a single millimeter.

electricdrifter68 said:Goodness, if I were to follow Seb, I wouldn't move even a single millimeter.

So, where would you even go?

Elizabeth Carter6 said:So, where would you even go?

Elizabeth Carter6—the vampire solving the riddle!
Who is actually suggesting I go anywhere? That whole bit about following someone else was entirely your own thought, not mine. "You can follow the one and only ultimate authority: yourself." But what does it truly mean to follow oneself? Who is it that is doing the following, and who is being followed? If I am following myself, doesn't that feel like a bit of a logical loop to you?
Am I being profound, or just absurd? Have you ever truly encountered anyone who wasn't caught in a similar paradox?
I'm just playing around a bit, tossing words back and forth—don't take it personally. You framed the question beautifully.

boldsailor2 said:

"The whole point of Zen is walking that razor-thin edge of the present moment— you have to be so incredibly, absolutely present that there’s simply no room left for any problems, or suffering, or anything else you aren't really being in your core essence. In the present moment—where time just doesn't exist—all those problems of yours just melt away. Suffering needs time to exist, and it just can't survive in
the present. To pull their students' focus away from the concept of time, the great Rinzai Zen master would often just raise a finger and quietly ask: 'What is missing right now?' It’s such a powerful question—it doesn't even need an answer from your logical mind. It’s designed to pull your attention deeper into the present moment. There's a similar question in the Zen tradition: 'If not now, when?'..."

Eckhart Tolle: The Power of Now 😍

Honestly, if someone thinks they actually "get" Zen, then they don't understand a single thing about it! Seriously, what are they even talking about?👎

.................................................. ............


ABC Eckhart Tolle
Imagine we’re sitting down for a coffee, maybe at a little cafe in downtown Chicago, and we start diving into the deep stuff—the kind of conversation that makes you forget where you put your keys because you're so wrapped up in the mystery of it all! Let's play out a little scenario, inspired by those profound ideas from Eckhart Tolle about finding peace right here, right now. I love thinking about how much our internal chatter gets in the way of actually living! *** **Person A:** "I feel like I'm constantly running on a treadmill that just won't stop. Every time I think I've caught up with my to-do list, three more things pop up. How am I supposed to find any peace when life is this frantic?" **Person B:** "Isn't it funny how we do that? We spend so much energy worrying about the next five minutes that we completely miss the beauty of the present moment. What if you stopped trying to 'get somewhere' and just realized you're already there?" **Person A:** "But if I stop moving, won't I fall behind? It feels like if I don't stay ahead of everything, the whole world will pass me by!" **Person B:** "But does the world really move that fast, or is it just your mind racing to keep up with its own shadows? Think about it: can you actually experience your life if you're always mentally living ten steps ahead? It's like trying to enjoy a delicious slice of New York cheesecake while staring intensely at the exit sign of the restaurant. You're physically there, but your spirit is already halfway down the street!" **Person A:** "That’s a fair point... I guess I am mostly living in the 'what comes next' instead of the 'what is happening.'" **Person B:** "Exactly! And that’s where the magic happens. When you lean into the present moment, the noise starts to settle. It’s not about fixing your life; it’s about realizing that beneath all that mental chaos, there is a stillness that’s always available to you. Why fight the current when you can just learn how to float?" *** Isn't that just wild to think about? We spend our entire lives searching for fulfillment, acting like it's some distant destination we'll reach once we pay off the mortgage or get that promotion, when it turns out the treasure was buried right under our feet the whole time! Who knew that simply breathing and being aware could be such a game-changer?

Eckhart Tolle:
What exactly is the power of the present moment? Is it anything more than just the sheer strength of your own presence, or that beautiful state of consciousness where you finally feel unburdened by every single racing thought?

placidharbor7:
How exactly can we liberate consciousness from the grip of thought? It’s a heavy question, isn't it? We often say that thought *is* consciousness. In fact, according to Eckhart Tolle, thought serves as your very foundation. That foundation is what constitutes your "self." But think about it: how on earth do you free yourself from your own self? If you manage to strip away the constant stream of thinking, the "I" vanishes right along with it. So, if the ego and the thoughts dissolve, what is actually left standing?

So, you’re talking about the "power of presence," right? But here’s the thing—isn't that very "power of presence" just another version of the 'I'? It feels like just another opinion to me! Every single moment is actually the bitter end of the subject's 'I.' It's the final vanishing act of the 'self.' And if that 'self' disappears, then the 'now' disappears along with it, doesn't it? If there's no self left, whose presence are we even talking about, Eckhart Tolle?

Eckhart Tolle:
Being truly mindful of the present moment actually gives you this incredible superpower: the ability to look back at everything that’s already happened from a place of total presence! Isn't that wild? Instead of being stuck in those old loops, you can finally approach your past with a completely fresh perspective.

placidharbor7:
The "I" is always just the past, isn't it, Eckhart Tolle? It makes you wonder—how can the past possibly exert any influence if we are truly operating from the level of the present moment? Honestly, saying the past acts through the past just feels more accurate. As long as that sense of "self" exists, every single action we take is just an echo of what has already happened. But here is the real kicker: if that "ego" or "self" isn't there anymore, then who exactly is doing the acting? If the self vanishes, what even is the past at that point? And most importantly, if there is no "I," then who is left inside you to actually perceive and recognize the present moment?

Eckhart Tolle:
The more attention you pay to what’s already behind you, the more clearly you define that "self" you're trying to build from those old experiences. Don't get me wrong—focusing is vital! But shouldn't that focus be directed somewhere other than the past? Why spend all our energy dwelling on what's already happened instead of where we are right now?

placidharbor7:
What exactly is this "attention" we're talking about? Is it just a tool, or is it something deeper? I mean, can anyone truly be attentive unless there’s an "I" behind the eyes to do the focusing? It feels like only consciousness—that core sense of self—could actually pull this off. After all, isn't it our own perspective that does the concentrating? When you emphasize the importance of attention, Eckhart, it makes me wonder: who is actually holding onto that focus? If attention is essentially synonymous with the "I," then doesn't that imply the "self" is already established and fully formed? Are you suggesting that we can somehow upgrade or evolve this existing self from within? It's a fascinating thought, don't you think?

Eckhart Tolle:
Try to really focus on the present moment for a second! Have you ever tried just sitting back and carefully observing everything happening inside you? I mean, truly watching how your reactions, moods, thoughts, feelings, fears, and even your deepest desires unfold right here in the immediate now. Isn't it fascinating to see it all play out in real time?

placidharbor7:
That sense of attention we cling to? That’s just the "ego," according to Eckhart Tolle. It's essentially being stuck in the past. This kind of focus means you're constantly obsessing over your own identity while simultaneously dragging around everything that's already happened. Isn't it strange how that specific type of attention acts as this massive, stubborn barrier standing right between you and God? If that's the case, what kind of logic are we even following here?

Eckhart Tolle:
Do you ever feel like you're carrying the weight of everything that's already happened right inside you? It’s true—your past is always present. But here is the beautiful thing: if you can learn to look at all those old memories and experiences without being critical or constantly trying to tear them apart, you can change everything! What if you chose to observe your history with complete impartiality, without any judgment whatsoever? If you can do that, you suddenly gain this incredible advantage. You can actually face that entire past from the empowered position of your presence in the present moment. Isn't that a powerful thought? By truly focusing on the now, you’ll finally find your way back to yourself!

placidharbor7:
Eckhart Tolle claims that "the past exists within us," but honestly? I think he’s got it backwards. We don't just carry the past around like some heavy backpack; we *are* the past, through and through. Every single thing we look at is filtered through that lens. We approach life with this constant, nagging need to be critical and to deconstruct everything in sight. Think about it: if you believe that "observing" requires an "observer" inside you, then that very observer—that internal watcher—is nothing more than the past itself! That "watcher" is the ego. And let's be real, that ego is fundamentally incapable of looking at anything without passing judgment. True observation would mean being able to see things exactly as they are, completely stripped of all those preconceived notions and biases. That kind of pure, non-judgmental perception is what it actually means to achieve selflessness. And isn't that just another way of describing enlightenment? To be truly enlightened is to live entirely in the present moment. If you aren't awake, Eckhart, how can you possibly expect anyone to follow your guidance?

Eckhart Tolle:
Try changing the way you’ve been resisting the present moment. Try not to give your attention to either the past or the future, unless it's absolutely necessary.

placidharbor7:
But the "self" is made up of exactly that—the past and the future, Eckhart! How can the past possibly "not attract attention"? And how could the future ever deny itself our attention?
And what do you mean by "unless it's absolutely necessary"? Who gets to decide what’s necessary or isn't? Making those calls requires oversight, and isn't oversight exactly what kills that "detached" awareness you're talking about?

Eckhart Tolle:
Try to step out of the dimension of time in your daily life as much as you possibly can.

placidharbor7: The "dimension of time" is also the "self," Eckhart. How can you step outside of yourself?

Eckhart Tolle:
If you find it difficult to step directly into the present moment, at least try to notice the mind's habitual tendency to avoid it. You'll probably also notice that, as a rule, you tend to project the future as being either better or worse than the present.

placidharbor7:
The "present moment" is beyond the reach of the intellect, Eckhart. How can the mind then "avoid" your "now"? Observing the perceptions of one's own intellect is just a dead end. To observe is to repeatedly focus on the "self." And any kind of "self" is ultimately hollow. Why encourage that emptiness, Eckhart?

Eckhart Tolle:
For instance, if you imagine the future to be beautiful, it gives you hope and the pleasure of anticipating pleasant events. If you imagine it to be ugly, it brings you anxiety... and both perceptions are illusions...

placidharbor7:
The intellect is an illusion in its very essence, Eckhart. Straining to dissect its contents just pulls us into a vicious cycle. Dissecting it only serves to highlight that same intellect over and over again.

Eckhart Tolle:
Reciting "enlightenment" gives you the perception of a special achievement,
which people seem to love, even though it's really just a natural experience of oneness with everything that is.

placidharbor7:
How is it possible to experience that sense of oneness with all that is as long as the "self" still exists, Eckhart? Oneness means the end of your "self." Once that "self" is gone, who is left to experience the oneness? If the "self" vanishes, then all other things and phenomena vanish in the same way—including the perception of oneness itself.

Enlightenment has nothing to do with your "self." All "achievements" are just polite euphemisms for failure and lack. Every achievement involves blood, sweat, and tears. Enlightenment is a gift from God. A gift cannot be forced. That gift is bestowed upon us without any effort or involvement on our part.

Eckhart Tolle:
Your unwillingness to feel connected to oneness is what causes the sense of separation—both from yourselves and from the world around you.

placidharbor7:
The cause comes first, and then follows the "unwillingness." Don't blame the "unwillingness," Eckhart. The opposite isn't even possible; "willingness" isn't something you can simply manufacture. You are the true divider—your "self" is. You are the one who uses one cause to build another. You won't help yourself that way.

Brenda Cook4 said:Buddha koans really are a fantastic way to give your brain a bit of a "stretch" in a totally different direction.

Beyond just focusing directly on the koan itself—you have to let it go. Think of it like dropping a pebble into a pond; you let it sink into your subconscious and just settle there for a while... letting it shift around until we see what eventually surfaces.

Every answer carries its own weight...

Take this specific goose koan, for example: nobody actually specified what kind of bottle we're talking about. For all we know, it could be a rubber bottle😁 that’s incredibly stretchy... whatever... though personally, I find the most compelling part (as I've mentioned before) is how much it comes down to pure perception...😁

even if the bottle is just an ordinary glass one. 😉
but essentially, the koan asks: where is the goose? 👍

Austin Hayes66 said:even if the bottle is just an ordinary glass one. 😉
but essentially, the koan asks: where is the goose? 👍

The goose is made of glass.
So, where is the most ordinary bottle?

Hannah Wilson3 said:The goose is made of glass.
So, where is the most ordinary bottle?

Yeah, seriously, where is it? 😬🤣🤣

So where’s the goose missing from this? 👍😍

Hannah Wilson3 said:The goose is made of glass.
So, where is the most ordinary bottle?

It vanished inside the shell.

Douglas Brown4 said:I have to admit, I haven't met a single Zen practitioner yet whose vibe I could truly "get," so I'm not sure if Zen is just sophisticated nonsense or if there's some deeper meaning behind it.
Still, your explanation resonates with me most (though I won't call it logical, because I know all those spirituality enthusiasts will jump down my throat if they hear I think Zen is meant to confuse people or weaken the mind).

Douglas Brown4 said:Reality. I've seen people obsessed with Buddha. Just like I've seen people following Gurdjieff and all that fourth way crap.

Well, not everyone in America drives a Ford either. Only certain people.😁

True. But I guess every amateur gets into Buddha and Gurdjieff, only to act all "spiritual" later and hold a grudge against me for years just because I don't do anything yet I have everything.

🤔

mistyfox812 said:🤔

Yeah. That’s just taking words out of context. Especially when a moderator decides to delete the context itself. Think about it, I guess... maybe you'll eventually figure it out.

Bela Hamvas said:Ever since Aristotle, identity has been treated as a logical problem, when in its ultimate sense, it’s actually metaphysical rather than logical. Identity isn't just about A equaling A—it’s not simply that everything is equal to itself. That specific way of looking at it isn't metaphysical, but it isn't purely logical either; because we're talking about equality, it's mathematical. There are three ways to interpret the thesis of identity: mathematically, logically, and metaphysically. The first two are just narrow versions of the metaphysical truth. If you view the thesis of identity as a logical one, it becomes a tautology. In logic and math, the identity thesis serves as the foundation for all rational operations. But in metaphysics, it isn't just a formal thesis; it's an axiom stating that existence is identical within everything that exists.

😉
but you shouldn't go looking for those answers in philosophy... 👍 if I slice an apple right down the middle, then suddenly 2 equals 0 👍...

electricdrifter68 said:It vanished inside the shell.

I’m asking you nicely, Mr. Weather Forecaster... where exactly isn't there a goose? 👍😍

Austin Hayes66 said:I’m asking you nicely, Mr. Weather Forecaster... where exactly isn't there a goose? 👍😍

You have a point; they asked for this themselves. When they come after me, I suppose I'll just let you deal with them. I guess we'll see how that ends up playing out.

It’s called ''...the word zen is actually just a variation of some old Greek term for life...''

Zen-on says: look, you gotta get through half the distance before you can finish the whole trip. But wait—before you even tackle that first half, you have to cover half of *that* (the first quarter). And before you do that, you’ve got to hit half of that first quarter. It just keeps going and going forever. Basically, before you could ever travel any actual distance, you'd already be stuck trying to cross an infinite number of tiny little segments.
Diogenes just gets up and walks out.

😉

mistyfox812 said:It’s called ''...the word zen is actually just a variation of some old Greek term for life...''

Zen-on says: look, you gotta get through half the distance before you can finish the whole trip. But wait—before you even tackle that first half, you have to cover half of *that* (the first quarter). And before you do that, you’ve got to hit half of that first quarter. It just keeps going and going forever. Basically, before you could ever travel any actual distance, you'd already be stuck trying to cross an infinite number of tiny little segments.
Diogenes just gets up and walks out.

😉

👍 🙏

Panta Rei Ki!

mistyfox812 said:It’s called ''...the word zen is actually just a variation of some old Greek term for life...''

Zen-on says: look, you gotta get through half the distance before you can finish the whole trip. But wait—before you even tackle that first half, you have to cover half of *that* (the first quarter). And before you do that, you’ve got to hit half of that first quarter. It just keeps going and going forever. Basically, before you could ever travel any actual distance, you'd already be stuck trying to cross an infinite number of tiny little segments.
Diogenes just gets up and walks out.

😉

but since we're dividing things into an infinite number of segments: the time required to cross one of those infinitely small segments APPROACHES ZERO😉 😁

Austin Hayes66 said:I’m asking you nicely, Mr. Weather Forecaster... where exactly isn't there a goose? 👍😍

What a circus!
Which goose are we even talking about?

Douglas Brown4 said:You have a point; they asked for this themselves. When they come after me, I suppose I'll just let you deal with them. I guess we'll see how that ends up playing out.

Honestly, this whole thing was over before it even truly began. Just sit back, enjoy the show, and remember to stick to the math.

electricdrifter68 said:Honestly, this whole thing was over before it even truly began. Just sit back, enjoy the show, and remember to stick to the math.

Maybe we’re just being a little envious, huh? You don't really need any of that. I guess you should just focus on Q. It's probably best to celebrate the win before the war is even over. He hasn't even replied to you yet.