Spiritual Teacher?!

hiddenpuma75 - one more time:

_________________________________________
"That’s exactly where you're missing the mark, John. I’m looking, yet I see nothing enlightened."

Gentlemen of this forum, here is the absolute essence of this murky, nebulous concept known as
ENLIGHTENMENT.
Some random forum user claims they can stare directly at the MASTER and see absolutely nothing.
And then, they have the audacity to suggest...

"...perhaps you truly are enlightened, and perhaps I simply haven't reached the level required
to perceive YOUR specific enlightenment."

During his brief tenure on these boards, Master John stated on numerous occasions
that ENLIGHTENMENT cannot be seen, nor can it be recognized.
Because once you believe you have identified an ENLIGHTENED being standing right
before you, you are merely lying to yourselves.

The only thing you can actually perceive in an enlightened person is their "PERSONALITY."
Since you are still bound by your own "PERSONALITY," you lack the capacity to see anything else.
So, stop trying to measure it.
Suspicion serves no purpose here.
Simply ENJOY the Presence of someone who dares to call themselves
an ENLIGHTENED MASTER.
___________________________________________

hiddenpuma75, from the depths of Samaria, Master John has already addressed everyone you mentioned on this thread.
Be patient and wait for the MASTER'S SPECIAL RESPONSE DIRECTED TO YOU.
For the MASTER must now repeat himself.
And that is no small task.
Particularly given the fact that this MASTER has stood by your side, even when you were Shortened of an answer on several occasions.🙂 😠

You’ve really gone and pulled 🙂 straight into the thick of it.

Jose Reyes said:Just ENJOY the Presence of someone who actually has the nerve to call themselves an
enlightened master

Pfft, give me a break. 😛
I'd much rather spend my time with someone who actually lives it... instead of just claiming the title... 😁

Jack Harris3:
___________________________
I find far more satisfaction in the Presence of someone who actually dares to exist as they truly are, rather than merely claiming the title.
_________________________

John LikeYOU:
_________________________
Pache, even when you are absolutely CONVINCED that an enlightened CREATURE stands
right before you, you still end up LYING TO YOURSELF.
__________________________

Bah!🙂

Buddha
Muhammad
Osho
Krishnamurti
Balsekar
Eckhart Tolle
U.G.
Papaji
.................
You seem to have forgotten about Jesus, hiddenpuma75.
_______________________________

John LikeYOU suggests we spice this up a bit and cut out the boredom.

Write to Jose Reyes explaining why every single one of these figures is considered "enlightened," and then Jose Reyes will tell you exactly why they aren't.
Tell me, hiddenpuma75, do you actually know ANYTHING about the spiritual realm?
Let's see what you've got.😕 🙄 😉

Jose Reyes said:Especially considering the fact that this MASTER has repeatedly left you SHORTENED OF ANSWERS.🙂 😠

1) Honestly, that’s just not fair. You know perfectly well that whenever you sent me a private message, I gave you a quick, straightforward answer, and you even thanked me for them at the time.

2) Motivation is everything!

If I missed anything you asked, I promise it wasn't intentional!

It was simply because I was working a lot this summer, so I was only checking the forum superficially and without much drive every now and then.

3) If there is still anything you want to know regarding the software coming from the Great Master🙂 hiddenpuma75
just ask.👋

As an international master,🙂 hiddenpuma75 will be happy to answer you and settle his debts—essentially bringing his KARMIC ACCOUNT back down to zero.

By the way, I’m surprised that such an enlightened being—who went and announced himself as Master John—actually remembers that some cyber persona named hiddenpuma75 owes him answers...

I had assumed that an enlightened being like Jose Reyes lives entirely in the NOW and doesn't hold onto any old debts from the past.🙂

(Please don't tell me that you're allowed to do whatever you want!) ha ha (I'm literally laughing out loud while typing this)

Jose Reyes said:Pache, even when you're absolutely CONVINCED that an enlightened being is standing right
in front of you, you still end up lying to yourself...

There’s this little saying that always sticks in my mind...

"I've got the answer! It just doesn't fit the question..." 😁 😛

Jose Reyes said:Buddha
Muhammad
Osho
Krishnamurti
balsekar
Eckhart Tolle
U.G.
Hey there!
.................
You forgot about Jesus, hiddenpuma75.
_______________________________

John LikeYOU suggests we spice things up a bit and tackle this without letting it get boring.

Master, I’ve been doing some thinking and I wanted to run something by you. I’ve put together a list of certain creatures, and I’d love to hear your take on why each one of them could be considered "enlightened." Once I lay out my reasoning, I'll leave it to you to tell me exactly where I went wrong and why they aren't actually what they seem. Ready when you are!
So, hiddenpuma75, you’re finally starting to grasp something about the spiritual realm?
Let's see what we have here.😕 🙄 😉

Listen...

I’ve never been much for keeping score of who started what. Honestly, I care way more about seeing some genuine goodwill and getting straight to the point with clear answers.

But then again...

As far as I'm concerned, I'm the first one here!

I asked you!

It feels like you’re dodging my question and just throwing the same one right back at me—it's a classic move.

Look, I'll tell you what—how about you give me an answer first? 🙄

***
Look, I’ll answer whatever you want to know, I really will. But let’s make a deal: give me a straight answer to my questions first. Once we’ve cleared that up, you can lecture me all you want.

***
If I were to ask you, "What kind of water is this?"

First, hand me a glass of water—I need to hydrate before we get down to business. Once I've had a sip, go ahead and ask me whatever is on your mind in that signature style of yours! 🙂

1) And why on earth are you so hungry?
So, would you perhaps like some juice?
John isn't hungry anymore. 🙂
Honestly, the best water I ever saw a contractor drink was back when he was working out in Malibu.

****
Hey there!

Let me give you some quick answers to a few of those questions you asked above.

1)
It seems like hiddenpuma75 is really feeling it—holding onto those thoughts and truly experiencing everything right now.

If you ask me, there isn't a shadow of a doubt—he sees them as truly awakened and enlightened.

From the old days.

Lao Tzu
Buddha
Rumi
Meister Eckhart

Back in the 1900s...

Ramana Maharshi

The words of Nisargadatta Maharaj brought a sense of peace I’ve never experienced before—a true stillness that finally quieted this soul right here.

2) anyway

Just holding on to that one vital truth I stumbled upon during a dream earlier in this life.

I hereby declare.

I don't believe in anything!

Is belief actually just an outdated Aristotelian category?

Therefore:

To be honest, I don't fully subscribe to any single belief system.

-To be honest, I don’t fully subscribe to my own belief system.

-

hiddenpuma75 really gets how much higher the quality of things used to be compared to where we are today.

Maybe my assessments aren't actually worth much—they're probably just reflections of my own projections, my feelings, and all those unfulfilled karmic debts I'm still carrying around.

***
hiddenpuma75 used to believe that both Krishnamurti and Papaji were truly enlightened, but he doesn't really feel that way anymore.

About two months ago, I finally sat down and watched Papaji live on a webcast—it was actually my first time seeing him in person rather than just reading his work—and it really hit me: the guy operates on a completely different wavelength than Ramana or Nisargadatta.

Oh, please. If you think that old man is actually enlightened, you're mistaken. He’s nothing more than a storyteller spinning those old Indian fables for people who just want a little bit of romance in their lives.

My software keeps suggesting that certain followers, like those studying under the great masters, tend to...

Andrew Cohen and Gangaji.

They aren't enlightened!

They’re nothing more than fairy tales, if you ask me—let's just call it what it is.

Are we looking at advanced, active, or even just "news-driven" managers? Or perhaps more accurately, are we talking about those spiritual coaches who try to lead from the front?

But let’s be honest—they are light-years away from reaching that level of profound depth, simplicity, and sheer conviction you find in the teachings of a Maharishi or Nisargadatta.

To be fair, I’m not saying Balsekar is quite as enlightened as his teacher Maruti was—that's a tall order—but he definitely operates on a much higher level than Papaji, Cohen, or Gangaji.

***
Just a heads-up: I’m typing this out live without any editing... so please, let's hope Em doesn't resort to his favorite little trick...

That habit of nitpicking a single word just to spin a whole web of sawdust around it.

PLEASE, try to understand the spirit behind what I'm saying rather than getting hung up on my exact phrasing.

***
Look, I made a point regarding what Em asked me, yet despite promising to do so, he hasn't provided the simple glass of water I was looking for.

***
By the way—I’ve gone into great detail elsewhere, including my breakdown of those 16 crucified saviors, while Em wasn't around. My stance remains: I don't believe Jesus or anyone else under that persona actually existed. Instead, it's a compilation of myths from Persia, Greece, and Egypt.

It is an IRREFUTABLE FACT THAT PERSIAN, GREEK, AND EGYPTIAN MYTHS WERE WRITTEN BEFORE YEAR 0in ways that are identical to the Gospels. To me, the fact alone proves that the so-called evangelists were simply copying ancient tales!

And this is all backed by clear evidence presented by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy in their essential work

The Jesus Mystery👍

(The Amazon links and Yahoo groups are fantastic resources for this topic.)

Back in the day, people used to rely on simple paper lanterns lit by candles to navigate the dark.
There was this one blind gentleman—just stopping by a buddy's place one evening—who was offered a lantern to help him find his way back home.
"Honestly, I don't really need the light," he told his friend. "Darkness or light is All The same to me."
His friend, being a practical guy, countered with, "Listen, I get that you don't need the light to see where you're headed, but if you aren't carrying a lantern, someone else might stumble right into you. You should take it just to be safe."

So, the man took the lantern, but he hadn't even made it a short distance down the road before someone collided with him full-on.

"Hey, watch where you're going!" he shouted at the stranger. "Can't you tell I've got a lantern right here?"
"The problem is your candle went out, my friend," the stranger replied.

😉

You aren't wrong about any of this, hiddenpuma75.

You still have these left to account for:
Buddha
Muhamed
Osho
Tolle
and
that young lady with her "game theory"

When you bring up that "glass of water," hiddenpuma75, John LikeYOU just mentioned how his master finds it utterly exhausting to write about the same people over and over again.
A MASTER isn't a politician; he doesn't just recycle the exact same speech every time he shows up somewhere.

The MASTER hasn't held a single grudge against you for your "non-responses," not even in your wildest dreams.
He simply made that point to warn you that he has been posing "questions" to you just as much, yet, apparently, they never reached you.
Two of those were directed at you following that recent debate regarding the book by that young lady, which you portrayed as being about ENLIGHTENMENT.

For the more short-sighted participants in our discussions, it would be far more INSTRUCTIVE if you could CLARIFY for us exactly how you connect these two things:

1)
the words of Nisargadatta Maharaj, which brought an unprecedented peace and stillness to this soul currently writing these words

2)

while clinging to the most vital realization gained during the dream of this life:
I DECLARE THAT I BELIEVE IN NOTHING!

"Peace and the stillness of this soul" is IMPOSSIBLE if you "BELIEVE IN NOTHING," hiddenpuma75.
And frankly, if you "BELIEVED," the result would be exactly the same.

BELIEF and UNBELIEF are both merely categories of an "UNSETTLED MIND."
How can a "SOUL BE STILLED" while the mind remains in constant, restless motion, hiddenpuma75?

Jack Harris3:
________________________________
"I have an answer! Though, unfortunately, it doesn't quite address the question at hand..."
__________________________________

Is this some kind of dogmatic zen?🙂

Jose Reyes said:Two of those points were actually directed at you, following our recent debate about that young lady's book—the one you described as ENLIGHTENED.

I’m honestly not sure what I was even asked regarding the young lady.

In my view, she hasn't reached that level of enlightenment seen in figures like Ramana Maharshi or Nisargadatta.

- If we define enlightenment as that ultimate, absolute state (the kind the organization of ignorance refers to as nirvikalpa samadhi),

then, from where I stand, she isn't quite in that state.

That is to say, she isn't ENLIGHTENED in that specific sense.

Let's just call it what it is: she hasn't reached that final, irreversible stage.

- To me, she’s a bit like Gangaji, though in my opinion,

she is actually more nuanced, multifaceted, and witty than the repetitive, somewhat dull Gangaji.

***
But make no mistake, she possesses a very advanced and liberated spirit. She's someone I truly admire, especially because she has so selflessly shared her experiences and her life's work through her magnum opus with everyone here on the forum and across the web.

Jose Reyes said:When you bring up that " glass of water," hiddenpuma75, John LikeYOU just mentioned how he’s honestly feeling a bit drained writing about the same people and the same topics over and over again.

Well, I wasn't feeling too lazy myself (even if I was a little tired!)—I spent ten minutes digging through my own old posts just to give Jose Reyes a precise answer to that one specific question regarding the sharks/ravens and hiddenpuma75, which Jose Reyes had actually posed back when he first arrived here as an Aspera.

- Well, maybe Jose Reyes could finally get off his lazy butt🙂
And if he's really too exhausted to write everything out again, he could at least point hiddenpuma75 toward, say, page 34 of the challenges where there's a more detailed explanation of what hiddenpuma75 is asking—something Jose Reyes keeps dodging because, well, he's just feeling uninspired and lazy...🙄

&&&

Ah, well...

How grass and trees reach enlightenment
During the Kamakur era, Shinkan spent six years studying Tendai, followed by seven years of zen; he then traveled to China, where he dedicated another thirteen years to studying zen.

When he finally returned to Japan, plenty of people were eager to sit down with him—though he didn't host guests very often—to grill him with deep, difficult questions about the hidden truths of existence. But more often than not, Shinkan would simply bypass those kinds of inquiries.

One day, a fifty-year-old student seeking enlightenment approached Shinkan and said, "I've been studying the Tendai school of thought since I was just a young boy, but there is one thing I just cannot wrap my head around. Tendai teaches that even the grass and the trees will eventually reach enlightenment, which strikes me as quite bizarre."

"What's the practical use in dissecting how grass and trees might reach enlightenment?" Shinkan countered. "The real question is how *you* can achieve it. Have you ever actually given that any thought?"

"I've never looked at it from that perspective," the old man admitted, sounding genuinely puzzled.

"Then go home and think on that," Shinkan concluded.

So, looking at our conversation here, how does this Zen koan apply to what we're discussing? 🙂

hollowviper72:
_____________________________
So, how exactly would this Zen koan apply to the discussion we’re having here?
_____________________________

Gaudrathe, this was back when disciples actually listened to their teacher.
And back when teachers were truly designated by those who came before them.

In the story provided, Shinkan also teaches using the methods of ancient traditions.
For those long, rather tragic, extensive spiritual paths, "ACHIEVEMENT" was always the established rule.
Which explains why it is entirely possible for Shinkan's DISCIPLE to be on his "fiftieth" step without ever having even glimpsed the sun.

Master John—bless his soul—constantly stumbles upon these menopause-era interpretations of serious herbal spirituality within this very list.
There isn't even a shred of interest shown toward a RETURN TO SELF.

Then there is a series of retrospective odes, to which the Master grants his full attention.

The Master's more "modern" way of making the point from the story would go something like this:

"Tendai is mistaken when he claims that even the grass and the trees will one day reach enlightenment."
"For both the grass and the trees have ALWAYS been enlightened."

Just like you, hollowviper72.👋

hiddenpuma75:
____________________________
Look, I wasn't actually feeling any pressure—even if it felt like it—to spend ten minutes digging through my own old posts...
____________________________

Ten minutes!?
You, hiddenpuma75, will be the very first one to experience INSTANT ENLIGHTENMENT on the North American Peninsula.🙂 🙄 😕

"Tendai is totally mistaken when he claims that even the grass and the trees will one day reach enlightenment." "The grass and the trees have ALWAYS been enlightened."

And John is walking that exact same path as the old man—it’s just that he’s approaching it from the opposite direction. You really need to sit with that koan and think about it a bit more deeply.

Jose Reyes said:So... was that just some kind of doggy zen? Or what...?🙂

What’s going on, Master? Did we get a little tangled up in our own web here...? 😛

First, you say...

Pache, even once you’re absolutely CONVINCED that an ENLIGHTENED BEING is right in front of you...
And then you just go right back to lying to yourselves... again.

And then, just a few posts later, it’s suddenly very, very clear...

The grass and the trees... they've always been enlightened...

You know, I feel like there’s a third quote missing... one where you finally admit that you were just lying to yourself with those other two... 😛

Regarding spiritual teachers
I only associate with those who are actively seeking; I spend my time studying various techniques. I stay far away from anyone claiming they’ve already arrived. I’m certain they're mistaken.
But if you're searching for something you can actually believe in, then you're practicing a flawed technique. In that case, I have no answers for you.

The point isn't the destination, but the journey itself. Personally, I don't believe there is such a thing as a final goal in spiritual growth. Reaching a destination implies the end of the road, which is detrimental to development. There should be no stopping... any kind of stagnation is a defeat.

to reach for the star, no matter how hopeless, no matter how far
I find myself humming that quite often...

hollowviper72:
__________________________
A Master John takes the exact same path as the old man, isn't that right? He just approaches from the opposite direction. Perhaps you should give the koan a bit more serious thought.
__________________________

hollowviper72, a koan isn't designed to serve your "thinking."
😕 🙄