Spiritual Teacher?!

hollowviper72:
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Everything we can possibly say regarding the self must be rooted in our own direct experiences—never in someone else's. Isn't that the entire point of a koan?
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hollowviper72, that isn't even a koan to begin with.

And secondly: how on earth could you imagine a koan that exists merely to "validate" one's own personal experience?
A koan is constructed and presented specifically to tear those very "personal experiences" into absolute shreds, don't you think?
Comprehendo?😕 🙄 😉

Kate Lee12:
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Is it not true that when someone claims to possess the ultimate truth, they are merely playing a deceptive game with themselves—convincing their own soul that they have grasped the infinite, when in reality, they have simply climbed a single rung on the ladder of consciousness?
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This applies perfectly to all those self-proclaimed gurus and "masters" who haven't actually undergone any real transformation.
They are nothing more than an ILLUMINATION DUST CLOUD.
As for the others, you wouldn't even begin to comprehend them, Kate Lee12.😁 🙂

Jose Reyes said:Real hustlers always snatch up the best opportunities.
Master John doesn't even notice them.
I guess you could say he’s just choosing to look the other way.
Boom!😛 😎

The only part you actually got right was the bolded bit. 😛

But honestly, I haven't really had anything worth grabbing yet... 😢 😂

Jose Reyes said:Master John isn't even thinking about it anymore. (See the post above)

Jack Harris3 is even further off than that. 😂

Jack Harris3:
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Jack Harris3, even less so.
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What is truly bizarre about this situation is that people like him don't actually think, does it not?😁 😁 😁 😁 😁 😁 😎 😲

Jose Reyes said:What’s so strange about the idea that poets don't actually think?😁 😁 😁 😁 😁 😁 😎 😲

Hmm... So they just absorb everything regardless? 🤔 😛

Jose Reyes said:Kate Lee12:
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When someone claims they’ve reached "the truth," aren't they just kidding themselves? They think they've grasped something far beyond human comprehension, all while patting themselves on the back for climbing some imaginary rung on a ladder of consciousness...
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That applies perfectly to those self-proclaimed "students" and "masters" who haven't actually experienced
THE ILLUMINATION.
As for the others... you wouldn't even begin to understand, Kate Lee12.😁 🙂

At least I'm not deluding myself into thinking I possess 😁

Kate Lee12:
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I certainly hope I’m not merely deluding myself by believing
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Seriously, who on earth butchered this logic?

"That which truly exists, when everyone claims it exists, is nothing more than a trick played on the fool who believes he has grasped something beyond his reach, all while convincing himself he has simply 'ascended' to a higher level of consciousness?"

Are you actually deceiving yourself just to maintain the illusion that you aren't deceiving yourself?🙂 😠

Nisargadatta already mentioned how Kudechi was essentially "launched" by that spiritual fraud, Balsekar.

Honestly, I couldn't care less who he mentions. I spent some time surfing through what both he and Maharashi have to say today. If Maharashi represents enlightenment, then this guy is either just copying him or he’s actually enlightened himself... though his perspective feels a bit warped. Maharashi, on the other hand, seems almost "blessed."

It isn't a secret. It’s just invisible to those lacking insight.
There must be a "Code."
Without it, what separates you from Master John?

The truth is, there is no difference because:

"The grass and the trees are ALWAYS enlightened."

Exactly like you, hollowviper72.

🙂 🙂 🙂 😁 😎

As long as you keep thinking like that, you’re just going to stay stuck in a dead end.

Michelangelo hit the nail on the head—you don't debate spirituality. All we have are our own lived experiences, not some secondhand account from someone else. That's the whole point of a koan. It doesn't matter how anyone else reaches enlightenment; what matters is how *we* get there. And the answer? It’s buried inside us. No one can hand it to you on a silver platter.

There’s your mistake right there... ditch this idea of "how we get there."
Because nobody is actually "going" anywhere.😎
🎉

Jose Reyes said:You hit the nail on the head, hiddenpuma75.

But you still have these figures to account for:
Buddha
Muhamed
Osho
Tolle
and
that young lady with her "game theory" perspective

John,

it’s about time you started being more direct. Just tell us plainly what’s actually on your mind.

***
So, basically,

tell me—and tell all of us here—because I couldn't find this in my initial search through the threads:

- why and how do you maintain that Buddha wasn't enlightened (whereas you claim to be)?

***
You mentioned something about visions, Vipassana, and Muhamed's perspiration, but frankly, I didn't find those answers very satisfying.
If anything, it felt like you were just rambling about ancient masters whose light still pierces through the darkness of the ages, trying to compare them to someone aspiring to be a spiritual teacher today.

****

By the way, if I recall correctly, you asked me how I can possibly know if someone is truly enlightened... well, since you're the one questioning others, why don't you explain why they aren't?

Alright, here goes:

SUCCESS IS HUMAN PROOF

That is ONE of the criteria I use to argue that people like Buddha and Muhamed were indeed enlightened—speaking from the level of an adept who has crossed Daath (the Kabbalistic "abyss" from the Tree of Life symbolism).

The more I read through this thread, the more I’m convinced that the collective enlightenment quotient here is hovering somewhere around the level of a stale mattress. Look, I didn't come here to lecture anyone—I'm here to learn too—but honestly, some of you are making my hair stand on end. 😱 You have John over here claiming a koan from a classic text isn't actually a koan (when it’s clearly from Japanese Zen master Muju), and then there’s Karen Sanchez19, who's trying to convince me that all you need for enlightenment is to balance a daisy on your head and just... wait. I mean, sure, maybe that works if we bore the entire universe into submission until it forces enlightenment upon us after ten thousand reincarnations. But seriously, why does Buddha's path even exist if you aren't supposed to actually "walk" it? Buddha didn't just sit around waiting for enlightenment to drop out of a clear blue sky; he lived it. It was a pursuit. And in any pursuit—even one where your body doesn't physically move from its chair—you have to be going somewhere and arriving somewhere.

Man... wow. Much respect, but I am officially checking out. 😁

So, how could Buddha have even gone looking for something if he wasn't entirely sure it actually existed? I mean, he didn't even know what it was supposed to look like, right? 😁
And are you really certain that once he reached the end of his journey, he actually found exactly what he was searching for... and not just some completely different thing altogether? 😁

Also, how did Buddha actually reach enlightenment in the first place? Is there any real record of that happening?
I’m talking about that sudden "aha!" moment... Did he arrive at it through intense, active searching, or did he just sit down under a tree to catch his breath, take a break from the grind, and then suddenly—just like that—it all clicked? 😁

For a seeker, the search itself is the whole point of living. No one truly knows how someone else reaches enlightenment, nor can anyone claim to understand the mechanics behind another person's awakening. We don't even really know what the core essence of this pursuit is—where it starts, where it ends, or if there's even a destination. Honestly, once you've actually arrived, words for "enlightenment" just seem to fall short.

That’s why, in our own personal journeys, we shouldn't get bogged down obsessing over labels, specific paths, or rigid structures; instead, we just have to live the search. When the time is right, the true nature of everything will finally become clear. You don't force an epiphany through sheer willpower—you simply cultivate the readiness to let it happen.

At least, that’s the most coherent way I can wrap my head around it right now. I hope that makes sense... I can't quite tell if I'm hitting the mark or just rambling. *shrug*

hollowviper72 said:...there just isn't any willingness to realize that.

Not him either. 😁

I’m struggling to wrap my head around this last part. 😕

The real issue when you try to transplant Eastern schools of thought into Western culture is that everyone here seems obsessed with finding the path of least resistance—it's almost a reflex. It’s honestly no surprise that this whole idea has taken root, suggesting that enlightenment isn't actually something you work toward, but rather something you just sit around waiting for Mr. Universe to drop into your lap while you sip cocktails. Honestly, it explains why Buddhism has become such a massive trend in the States. 😁

If > had just stayed tucked away in his palace forever, he never would have actually *become* the Buddha. You all spend far too much time over-philosophizing things. I can't believe I just said that. 😉

Parsifal:
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SUCCESS IS MERELY HUMAN PROOF
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Parsifal, I suspect your Buddha would take great issue with you attempting to validate his "Buddha-ness" through mere "success."

Master John hasn't witnessed a larger circus in quite some time.
Would you care to admit if this was all just a little scheme that happened to pan out for you, Parsifal?😲

That is precisely ONE of the criteria I use to argue that figures like Buddha or Muhammad were actually enlightened—that they spoke from the perspective of an adept who has successfully crossed Daath (that Kabbalistic "abyss" found in Tree of Life symbolism).

Success... you mean historical success?

Everything those men ever uttered (Jesus and Buddha alike)...

They lived over 2,000 years ago... their actual words have been "blended" more than you could possibly imagine...

Perhaps that isn't even their success at all... perhaps it’s just the success of the people who wrote in their names...

They are essentially characters from a novel (especially the Bible)...

Everyone just parrots what, say, Jesus said... maybe he was just a fictional figure... but even that doesn't matter...
In reality, it doesn't even matter if they were truly enlightened or not...
What matters is what is written in their "works"—their recorded statements...

The New Testament and Jesus' words are saturated with messages meant for the masses; to me, that is sufficient proof that we are dealing with politicians...
I am not saying Jesus wasn't enlightened... but it is glaringly obvious that the New Testament contains far more politics and far less of the true, enlightened Master...

I need to dig into the Apocryphal Gospels from the Nag Hammadi library... then I will see what the Church really is and why they rejected them... because the Church has always historically discarded the truth in favor of whatever serves its own interests.

To goes to Karen Sanchez19, who seems to think enlightenment is achieved simply by balancing a daisy on your head and—just sitting there.

No... just waiting isn't enough. In fact, waiting itself is a symptom of the ego—of our lower consciousness. It’s not about having enough patience to wait; it’s about having enough presence to stop waiting altogether.

Think of this "universal consciousness"... view it as something entirely separate from your ego-driven awareness and that distorted, misused sense of "self."

Everything you do in pursuit of enlightenment happens on *this* side of the equation. Everything. An enlightened being stays on the sidelines—or rather, exists on a different plane entirely—but they aren't sitting around waiting for you to catch up.
😁
They have no need to wait for anyone.

But then again, since everything is already a fixed reality... I suppose you could always sign up for one of those "enlightenment intensives" run by some local charlatans and pretend to experience it there.

Then why does Buddha's Path even exist if you don't actually "walk" it? For heaven's sake, Buddha walked it! Enlightenment didn't just drop out of the sky onto his head. It was a search. And in any search, you move from point A to point B—even if your physical body never leaves the chair.

People... honestly. I can't even deal with this right now.

The truth is, this whole idea of "searching" is an illusion. Perhaps he simply believes that enlightenment is the result of a quest, but it isn't a consequence of seeking at all.

Now, I don't know if an enlightened person realizes this intuitively. If they do, then it follows that Buddha wasn't truly enlightened.

In a seeker's life, the search isn't just a part of living—it *is* living. No one truly understands how others reach enlightenment. No one can grasp the mechanics of another's awakening. Nobody knows the true essence of the quest, where it starts, or where it finally terminates. Once you're enlightened, words become useless tools to describe the experience.

So, in our own pursuit, we shouldn't obsess over labels, paths, or structures. We simply live the search. When the moment arrives, the ultimate truth of all things will reveal itself. Insight isn't something you can force through sheer willpower; it’s about being ready for the insight to happen.

That’s the most coherent thought I can muster right now. I have no idea if I'm even making sense here... *shrug*

This whole "search" is nothing more than an illusion. It's a mirage that feels like reality only because you haven't woken up yet. Once you actually achieve enlightenment, you'll realize why the searching was just a phantom to begin with....