Immigration: General Discussion Vol. IV (Read first post and moderator warning on pg. 309)

Paul Patel95 said:Look at this! Our kids are ditching America for Scandinavia while these guys are actually heading back to Iraq

Gospeti, what on earth is going on here?

🤣

Americans can't exactly move back to Iraq; they'd just end up in Iran. 😉

(Not trolling, just poking fun at that whole theory about Americans having Iranian roots)

I mean, they’re clearly struggling with the cold; they're so used to constant sunshine and warmth that heading north was probably a massive oversight on their part... and now they've realized they made a mistake because the easy life they were picturing just isn't there, especially since from everything I've been reading, they honestly expected money to just be falling from the trees 😁

Sam Murphy said:I mean, they’re clearly struggling with the cold; they're so used to constant sunshine and warmth that heading north was probably a massive oversight on their part... and now they've realized they made a mistake because the easy life they were picturing just isn't there, especially since from everything I've been reading, they honestly expected money to just be falling from the trees 😁

And the statistics certainly don't back them up.

If we were talking about a sudden influx of maybe 1,000 or even 10,000 refugees, you could actually manage that; you could distribute them across different states, provide social services, or perhaps help them find work.

But when you're looking at a million people rushing in all at once, there is simply no way to treat them as individuals, and there is zero chance that the local population won't start feeling threatened. I honestly don't understand how the refugees themselves don't grasp this reality; they still seem to expect everything handed to them on a silver platter, as if integrating a million people into a society is some minor inconvenience.

Robert Patel2 said:Honestly, the weirdest part of this whole circus to me is how economic migrants have suddenly become the bad guys! Like, they’re actually the only positive kind of migrants because they show up ready to work—kind of like how Americans head out to find jobs elsewhere, you know? They aren't just moving to live off welfare like millions of people in Western Europe. A system that basically funds people for life just to sit around on social assistance when they aren't even sick... I mean, that just seems like a broken system to me!

They arrive in Germany or Scandinavian countries with nothing in their pockets, expecting the government to bankroll them until they get back on their feet. The real issue is that many struggle to find their footing even then. They need help learning the language, they need help finding housing, and since many lack a high school diploma, finding employment becomes an uphill battle. Should we implement a rule where they are required to work? Even basic jobs, like handing out flyers, often require at least a high school education these days. Between food and clothing, they are essentially dependent on the state for at least the first six months to a year, relying on public funds to cover their entire existence.

And there is also the question of the children. How do you integrate kids during their most formative years when they don't know the local language or even five words of English?

Raymond Anderson4 said:They arrive in Germany or Scandinavian countries with nothing in their pockets, expecting the government to bankroll them until they get back on their feet. The real issue is that many struggle to find their footing even then. They need help learning the language, they need help finding housing, and since many lack a high school diploma, finding employment becomes an uphill battle. Should we implement a rule where they are required to work? Even basic jobs, like handing out flyers, often require at least a high school education these days. Between food and clothing, they are essentially dependent on the state for at least the first six months to a year, relying on public funds to cover their entire existence.

And there is also the question of the children. How do you integrate kids during their most formative years when they don't know the local language or even five words of English?

I actually heard this story about a small town in Germany with only about 3,000 residents where suddenly 500 migrants arrived, and now there's this massive push to enroll all their kids in the local schools, which has led to the local Germans threatening to pull their own children out of the system entirely if it actually happens... and I honestly suspect this isn't just some isolated incident, but rather a pattern we're seeing more and more often...

Even if we’re just talking about temporary housing, trying to settle 500 migrants in a tiny town is already a massive challenge. But think about the long-term reality: how on earth do you find work for all those people in a town of only 3,000? Let's say out of those 500, there are 100 able-bodied men looking for employment. Where are they supposed to go? A small town like that usually operates on a very steady, established rhythm of small manufacturing plants, local shops, and offices where the headcount stays pretty much the same. It's not like they're going to suddenly start manufacturing custom job openings just for them.

I don't have the specifics for this particular case, but I'm genuinely curious to see how things actually played out in this German city: http://pamelageller.com/2015/10/town...-country.html/

Raymond Anderson4 said:They arrive in Germany or Scandinavian countries with nothing in their pockets, expecting the government to bankroll them until they get back on their feet. The real issue is that many struggle to find their footing even then. They need help learning the language, they need help finding housing, and since many lack a high school diploma, finding employment becomes an uphill battle. Should we implement a rule where they are required to work? Even basic jobs, like handing out flyers, often require at least a high school education these days. Between food and clothing, they are essentially dependent on the state for at least the first six months to a year, relying on public funds to cover their entire existence.

And there is also the question of the children. How do you integrate kids during their most formative years when they don't know the local language or even five words of English?

Since we can no longer keep them separated from us in camps, perhaps the most honest solution for everyone involved would be for the state to tie social assistance to a specific duty: caring for the aging European population. We have so many elderly citizens left behind in small towns because the youth all moved away looking for work.

In this scenario, migrants could, for example, spend five hours a day chopping wood for those residents, followed by three hours of intensive language study to facilitate some semblance of integration into the society they have entered. Afterward, a selection process should occur. Those who master the language effectively could be permitted to stay, while those who do not should be sent back via plane. Alternatively, they could be relocated to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the emirate, or Dubai.

Furthermore, language proficiency should be tested so rigorously that staying in the country becomes a genuine challenge to achieve.

Nicole Barrett76 said:Since we can no longer keep them separated from us in camps, perhaps the most honest solution for everyone involved would be for the state to tie social assistance to a specific duty: caring for the aging European population. We have so many elderly citizens left behind in small towns because the youth all moved away looking for work.

In this scenario, migrants could, for example, spend five hours a day chopping wood for those residents, followed by three hours of intensive language study to facilitate some semblance of integration into the society they have entered. Afterward, a selection process should occur. Those who master the language effectively could be permitted to stay, while those who do not should be sent back via plane. Alternatively, they could be relocated to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the emirate, or Dubai.

Furthermore, language proficiency should be tested so rigorously that staying in the country becomes a genuine challenge to achieve.

It’s not a bad idea. But I have another suggestion... we could just do away with state borders and populations altogether and everything would be fine, making these kinds of displays unnecessary...

Sandra Evans said:It’s not a bad idea. But I have another suggestion... we could just do away with state borders and populations altogether and everything would be fine, making these kinds of displays unnecessary...

Of course this is the best approach.

It isn't just Europe that needs to tackle this issue head-on. What are our sister Arab nations doing—countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Dubai, the Emirates, Algeria, Morocco, and Egypt? What is Israel doing? What about those Turkic Central Asian states? And what are the USA, Russia, Australia, India, China, and Pakistan doing???

Is it only us Americans who are expected to act as if we are somehow superhuman?

And if we absolutely must confront this problem, wouldn't it be best to house them in camps, far removed from the rest of the population, providing them with food, clothing, and warmth, while using every political means at our disposal to end the war quickly so they can be sent back to rebuild their own nation as soon as possible?

Stric iz ozadja said:I'm sorry, but I would much rather chop wood myself for my mother than leave her at the mercy of some wild Moroccan man holding an axe...

That is perfectly understandable. In fact, it is one of the significant reasons that migrants ought to realize: that a fear of strangers is a completely normal and rational phenomenon; that they should have fought for their own country (just as we fought for ours); and that being "forced" to chop wood is by no means an act of slavery or oppression, but rather a recognition that everyone must be a productive member of society and that one cannot live off idleness; furthermore, the mere opportunity to work, even if it is a "lowly and dirty job" like chopping wood, is actually a profound expression of trust placed in them.

Mexicans aren't even letting all Syrians through anymore
— they're only admitting those from active war zones.

Ugh, that route is basically shutting down. Austria is at its breaking point—honestly, they'll probably stop letting anyone in at all...
Meanwhile, Greece is still just letting everyone through without any real discussion. They really ought to be kicked out of Schengen. If you ask me, they've already disqualified themselves; we just need to make it official on paper.

Now we wait and see how this plays out.
In a few weeks, things might actually settle down enough for smooth sailing again. I really hope that's the case...

Nicole Barrett76 said:Of course this is the best approach.

It isn't just Europe that needs to tackle this issue head-on. What are our sister Arab nations doing—countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Dubai, the Emirates, Algeria, Morocco, and Egypt? What is Israel doing? What about those Turkic Central Asian states? And what are the USA, Russia, Australia, India, China, and Pakistan doing???

Is it only us Americans who are expected to act as if we are somehow superhuman?

And if we absolutely must confront this problem, wouldn't it be best to house them in camps, far removed from the rest of the population, providing them with food, clothing, and warmth, while using every political means at our disposal to end the war quickly so they can be sent back to rebuild their own nation as soon as possible?

That is perfectly understandable. In fact, it is one of the significant reasons that migrants ought to realize: that a fear of strangers is a completely normal and rational phenomenon; that they should have fought for their own country (just as we fought for ours); and that being "forced" to chop wood is by no means an act of slavery or oppression, but rather a recognition that everyone must be a productive member of society and that one cannot live off idleness; furthermore, the mere opportunity to work, even if it is a "lowly and dirty job" like chopping wood, is actually a profound expression of trust placed in them.

I get all that, and I'm with you... but like Lee said earlier... If Angela Merkel was shouting "Welcome!", then from a migrant's perspective, what right does a little subject like you have to come in and start setting conditions?
Forget this whole "everyone must be a productive member of society" thing... they don't give a damn about that—they only care about direct orders from the government... that's the only thing they actually respect.

Nicole Barrett76 said:Since we can no longer keep them separated from us in camps, perhaps the most honest solution for everyone involved would be for the state to tie social assistance to a specific duty: caring for the aging European population. We have so many elderly citizens left behind in small towns because the youth all moved away looking for work.

In this scenario, migrants could, for example, spend five hours a day chopping wood for those residents, followed by three hours of intensive language study to facilitate some semblance of integration into the society they have entered. Afterward, a selection process should occur. Those who master the language effectively could be permitted to stay, while those who do not should be sent back via plane. Alternatively, they could be relocated to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the emirate, or Dubai.

Furthermore, language proficiency should be tested so rigorously that staying in the country becomes a genuine challenge to achieve.

Keeping people isolated is counterproductive. Setting up camps on the outskirts of cities is just bad policy; how are they supposed to socialize with the local population if that’s even the goal? You end up creating ghettos filled with people who lack any means of support, and that doesn't bode well for anyone. If they have already arrived, it implies the city leadership intends for them to stay permanently. You won't achieve integration by immediately removing them from society.

As for the idea about chopping wood... I'm not sure if that's sustainable long-term. This is a situation that requires serious, long-range planning.
We could utilize migrant labor for public works projects, or allow locals to provide services for a fee determined by the state. But this needs to be structured as a cohesive, time-bound project.

Nicole Barrett76 said:Of course this is the best approach.

It isn't just Europe that needs to tackle this issue head-on. What are our sister Arab nations doing—countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Dubai, the Emirates, Algeria, Morocco, and Egypt? What is Israel doing? What about those Turkic Central Asian states? And what are the USA, Russia, Australia, India, China, and Pakistan doing???

Is it only us Americans who are expected to act as if we are somehow superhuman?

And if we absolutely must confront this problem, wouldn't it be best to house them in camps, far removed from the rest of the population, providing them with food, clothing, and warmth, while using every political means at our disposal to end the war quickly so they can be sent back to rebuild their own nation as soon as possible?

That is perfectly understandable. In fact, it is one of the significant reasons that migrants ought to realize: that a fear of strangers is a completely normal and rational phenomenon; that they should have fought for their own country (just as we fought for ours); and that being "forced" to chop wood is by no means an act of slavery or oppression, but rather a recognition that everyone must be a productive member of society and that one cannot live off idleness; furthermore, the mere opportunity to work, even if it is a "lowly and dirty job" like chopping wood, is actually a profound expression of trust placed in them.

Sure, that sounds great in some sort of perfect utopia, but I think we both know—and let's be honest here—that the world we actually live in is nowhere near that kind of ideal. 🙂

Is it not truly remarkable how much weight a single statement can carry? Does one not find themselves pondering the profound implications behind such a simple assertion?

Is there anything more fundamental to the progress of our great nation than the integrity of our highways? Does the quality of our roads not serve as the very backbone of American commerce and connection? kaže: I certainly understand where you're coming from, and I find myself in complete agreement with your sentiment... however, hasn't lee_chan already pointed out the fundamental flaw here? If Lady Merkel has already extended a "Welcome!", then by what right does an individual like yourself, acting merely as one of her subjects, attempt to demand concessions or set conditions? Forget all that nonsense about everyone needing to be a "productive member of society." They couldn't care less about that; they only ever respond when they receive direct orders from the government. Is that not the only thing they are capable of understanding or respecting?

We really need to draw this out for them... to hammer it home that we aren't some submissive subjects of Merkel's whims, but rather followers of Tomislav Karamarko—at least for the time being.

Benjamin Foster2 said:Sure, that sounds great in some sort of perfect utopia, but I think we both know—and let's be honest here—that the world we actually live in is nowhere near that kind of ideal. 🙂

Does this not lead us back to the inescapable reality that we must provide aid by maintaining them in secure camps, separated from the local population? Is it not our responsibility to ensure they are fed, treated, sheltered, and clothed, while providing purposeful engagement to help them process the trauma of war and eventually face the monumental task of rebuilding their own nation?

Those who have truly suffered the ravages of war will be profoundly grateful for even such a small gesture.

-------------------------------------

And of course, wouldn't it be far more sensible to distribute that burden across the rest of the globe rather than forcing it solely upon Europe?

Paul Thomas46 said:Mexicans aren't even letting all Syrians through anymore
— they're only admitting those from active war zones.

Ugh, that route is basically shutting down. Austria is at its breaking point—honestly, they'll probably stop letting anyone in at all...
Meanwhile, Greece is still just letting everyone through without any real discussion. They really ought to be kicked out of Schengen. If you ask me, they've already disqualified themselves; we just need to make it official on paper.

Now we wait and see how this plays out.
In a few weeks, things might actually settle down enough for smooth sailing again. I really hope that's the case...

Tomorrow is "D-Day." The North American route is closing up and refugee status criteria are getting tightened.
The weakest link is Turkey and those supposed voluntary quotas. Personally, I don't think that'll ever actually happen, but the days of letting every single person walk right in have to end—hopefully.

http://www.politico.eu/article/balka...eu-to-declare/

wanderingbadger77 said:Tomorrow is "D-Day." The North American route is closing up and refugee status criteria are getting tightened.
The weakest link is Turkey and those supposed voluntary quotas. Personally, I don't think that'll ever actually happen, but the days of letting every single person walk right in have to end—hopefully.

http://www.politico.eu/article/balka...eu-to-declare/

Honestly, I think this is going to be a mess—likely some incidents or even violence.
Angela Merkel calls them over, then they travel thousands of miles only for a customs officer to tell them they can't go any further.

Dennis Hall41 said:Honestly, I think this is going to be a mess—likely some incidents or even violence.
Angela Merkel calls them over, then they travel thousands of miles only for a customs officer to tell them they can't go any further.

I mean, once Lady is out of the picture, even the North Star is gonna vanish from the sky.🙂

Scott Rodriguez19 said:I mean, once Lady is out of the picture, even the North Star is gonna vanish from the sky.🙂

Hmm... I wouldn't say "when"—more like "if."

And don't forget about Scandinavia—they've always had that reputation for being pretty aggressive and intolerant, too.

I honestly don't see how anyone thinks this is going to stop. And like Turkey is actually going to listen to the European Union? Someone obsessed with Suleiman the Magnificent and the Ottoman Empire isn't exactly going to take orders from Vienna.😂

Migrants are just going to pile up in Greece. At any given moment, the Greeks could move 100,000 people right up to the Mexican border. If even 1,000 of them have stones and start throwing them at the police... what then? If just one person shows up with a gun and fires at a Mexican officer, what happens next?

They aren't just going to go back voluntarily.

Lisa Patel4 said:I honestly don't see how anyone thinks this is going to stop. And like Turkey is actually going to listen to the European Union? Someone obsessed with Suleiman the Magnificent and the Ottoman Empire isn't exactly going to take orders from Vienna.😂

Migrants are just going to pile up in Greece. At any given moment, the Greeks could move 100,000 people right up to the Mexican border. If even 1,000 of them have stones and start throwing them at the police... what then? If just one person shows up with a gun and fires at a Mexican officer, what happens next?

They aren't just going to go back voluntarily.

Look, this whole thing has to hit a breaking point eventually. But you're right—they aren't going to just pack up and head home voluntarily. Anyone stuck in that weird, undefined limbo within some country... well, that bubble being blown right now? It’s going to burst sooner or later. And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do to stop the people caught inside that bubble at the Mexican border. Why? Because they have zero interest in going back.