Standard of living in Cuba is better than in America

Henry Cox78 said:The title is totally off. You can't just compare living standards to HDI; those are two completely different things. If the standard of living were actually higher, you wouldn't see tens of thousands of Americans flocking to Cuba for vacation—instead, you'd see Cubans visiting the States. Has anyone ever actually seen a Cuban tourist in Miami? That’s all there is to say about "living standards."

And as for why some women might leave Cuba by marrying painters... well, I suppose it might just be because they aren't making very smart decisions.

Sam Wright21 said:My understanding of Cuba is shaped by reading Houellebecq's platform and listening to the firsthand accounts of a friend who actually spent time there. There is a profound level of poverty 😢 As a tourist, you’re essentially barred from even stepping foot into the local dive bars where the average Cuban gathers. Cars are a luxury almost no one possesses, and the public transit system is so unreliable that people are constantly being pulled over just trying to make it to their shifts. Then again, I can't help but wonder if this misery wouldn't be so pervasive if it weren't for the decades-long blockade imposed by the USA.
Despite the deprivation, there’s a certain resilience there—they sing, they dance, they find ways to celebrate with whatever scraps they have left. Perhaps the tropical climate provides a buffer; the mere thought of them facing a brutal winter like ours makes me shudder.

It was all quite a spectacle. Whatever the fascists stole, the partisans simply reclaimed, but frankly, it’s beneath me to debate such things with Krinica.

What an absurd notion. While limiting imports might occasionally make sense, placing restrictions on exports is a recipe for disaster.🤦

Actually, the USA isn't stopping Cuba from exporting anything—there isn't some total blockade in place. It's more about limiting what comes into their market from Cuba and controlling what they send over to Cuba. It's pretty much similar to what we're seeing with Russia and the European Union right now.

It’s pretty straightforward. In Cuba, you have actual socialism where everyone is equally broke. In the States, we have "nepotism socialism" where a few elites hoard everything while everyone else struggles. But if you actually bother with basic math, the averages end up looking identical anyway. ☕

gentlemoose57 said:Good grief, so now trade restrictions are suddenly a bad thing? Isn't that basically the entire playbook for domestic conservatives here—claiming we need to protect ourselves from foreign lobbies and low-quality imports? Well, it looks like Cuba is living their absolute dream scenario.😁

The argument is that our version of the right wing is somehow more socially sensitive than the left
but that just isn't how the world works.

Tyler Jackson6 said:Cubans actually live longer than Americans—fewer heart attacks, fewer strokes,
way lower infant and maternal mortality rates too...
😉
it goes to show that even with basic medical setups, you can organize a solid healthcare system if you actually try,

just look at Brazil or the USA, where they have top-tier medicine (I mean, Brazil is basically the world hub for plastic surgery and cardiac stuff), yet their healthcare systems are a total mess...

Wait, so you actually trust statistical data coming straight from the official agencies of a totalitarian communist regime?

Benjamin Taylor6 said:The essence of socialism is turning the entire nation into one massive monastery. Everyone becomes a monk or a nun. They work hard, they pray to Marx, and that’s about it. The only thing they aren't supposed to do is procreate—though, let's be honest, that isn't exactly a priority in a monastery.😁

Naturally, they need the perfect role model for this: an ancient Chinese peasant from two millennia ago:

There’s this old story that perfectly captures Chuang Ze's philosophy regarding labor,
it's about a peasant who refused to use a pulley system
to draw water from his well. '
Some peasant had dug a well and was pulling water out
to irrigate his land. To get the water out of the
well, he just used a bucket, much like most unrefined people would. Seeing this, a passerby asked the man
why he wouldn't use a pulley: it would save him effort and allow him to get more
work done in a much more efficient way. The peasant replied:
"I know that machine saves effort, and that is exactly why I won't
use it. I fear that relying on such a device makes a man dependent on machinery. And that leads straight to laziness."

By the way, according to this chart, Cubans are ranked as the 7th happiest nation in the world: http://topforeignstocks.com/wp-conte...kings-2009.JPG
And they have several neighbors with a very similar standard of living and mindset!

There’s a story about a certain American businessman standing
on a pier in a small Mexican fishing village right as a boat pulled in. In the boat, there was just one fisherman and
a few large tuna. The American started praising the Mexican's catch and asked him
how long it had taken him to catch them.
"Oh, very little time," the Mexican replied.
The American then began questioning him about why he didn't stay out longer to catch
more fish.
The Mexican said that what he had was enough for his family.
The American kept pressing: "And what do you do when you aren't fishing?"
Then the Mexican tells him: "I sleep in late, go fishing for a bit, play with
my kids, relax with my wife, Mary, head into town every evening for
a glass of wine, and play guitar with my friends. I stay busy enough throughout the day,
Sir."
The American replied condescendingly: "Look, I have a degree in business management
from Harvard, and I can give you some solid advice. Why don't you spend more time
fishing so you can buy a bigger boat? With a larger boat, you could earn enough for
several boats. Eventually, you could own an entire fleet.
Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you could sell directly to
the processors, and eventually even open your own cannery. You would have
total control over everything—the product, the processing, and the distribution. At that point, it would be best if you
moved to Mexico City, then to Los Angeles, and finally to New York, where you could
run a business that would surely expand globally."
"And how long would all that take, Sir?" the Mexican fisherman asked.
The American answered: "About fifteen or twenty years."
"And then what, Sir?"
The American laughed and said that this was the best part. "When the time comes, you would sell the shares of your company and strike it rich. You'd make a fortune..."

millions.«
»Millions, Sir? And then what?«
The American kept going: »And then you could finally just step back from it all. You’d move down to
some little coastal fishing village—somewhere quiet—where you could sleep whenever you felt like it, do a bit of fishing, play
with your grandkids, relax with your wife, and then head out in the evenings for a glass of wine and maybe strum
a guitar with your buddies.«

Komentar:

Look, let's be real—a Mexican fisherman is basically just a lazy guy with zero sense of time management who doesn't bother saving a dime. He’s the type of person who’s going to be the first one running to the government for a handout the very second he comes home with an empty net! It isn't just about him potentially going hungry, either—I mean, if you aren't generating profit or building up some savings, you've got no roof over your head, no health insurance, and absolutely zero way to provide any kind of stability for your family's future. Honestly, society can only put up with a tiny handful of these freeloaders before things go south. If every single responsible adult acted this way, civilization would straight-up collapse within a decade!

If you ask me, a decent education for a kid should really wrap up like this:

Turist: Man, you seriously don't even have to work anymore—you can just kick back on the beach and totally chill!
Fisherman: Thanks, buddy, but that’s exactly what I’m already doing!

Turist: No, you just don't get it! Honestly, it’s always the same story—when you fail to grasp reality, you just sit there whining about how everyone else is responsible for your miserable luck. You'll be out there begging for handouts from people who actually put in the work and earn their keep. If you get a toothache or pick up some nasty parasites, you’ll start crying about how your "rights" to healthcare are being violated, demanding that the folks who actually planned for the future foot your medical bills. And if your kid goes hungry tomorrow? Well, you'll just demand that someone else feeds them since you failed to provide the absolute basics in the first place. You and your whole crowd are never going to amount to anything—seriously, nothing!—and that’s exactly why we want absolutely nothing to do with people like you.

👍

Spot on.

Ashley Gonzalez12 said:It’s pretty straightforward. In Cuba, you have actual socialism where everyone is equally broke. In the States, we have "nepotism socialism" where a few elites hoard everything while everyone else struggles. But if you actually bother with basic math, the averages end up looking identical anyway. ☕

What exactly are we talking about here? What is it that some people have while everyone else is left out in the cold? Are you seriously trying to tell me that only the "Todorićs" of the world are winning while everyone else is just out there grazing like sheep? I don't know about you, but looking around my neck of the woods, it’s just two of us working, plus maybe two neighbors from down the street. Everyone else—like ten or so people—is living off government handouts and doing just fine. That’s pretty much the average in the USA. I even know someone who gets subsidies for uncultivated fields she owns, and honestly, she doesn't even know why she qualifies. In a decent country, you’d be paying taxes on unused land, not getting a check for it.
Yeah, that’s definitely going to lead to most people actually having nothing one day. It's just basic math, really. But I guess Americans have always been pretty terrible at that kind of stuff. ☕

What we're dealing with today is basically just a modified socialist model. If it weren't for the media constantly breathing down our necks, most people might actually think we’re living in some kind of wonderland. But no, the news spends every single day making sure we know exactly how bad things are. Meanwhile, they make it sound like Cuba is some kind of paradise. I guess.☕

Karen Rodriguez3 said:Spot on.

What exactly are we talking about here? What is it that some people have while everyone else is left out in the cold? Are you seriously trying to tell me that only the "Todorićs" of the world are winning while everyone else is just out there grazing like sheep? I don't know about you, but looking around my neck of the woods, it’s just two of us working, plus maybe two neighbors from down the street. Everyone else—like ten or so people—is living off government handouts and doing just fine. That’s pretty much the average in the USA. I even know someone who gets subsidies for uncultivated fields she owns, and honestly, she doesn't even know why she qualifies. In a decent country, you’d be paying taxes on unused land, not getting a check for it.
Yeah, that’s definitely going to lead to most people actually having nothing one day. It's just basic math, really. But I guess Americans have always been pretty terrible at that kind of stuff. ☕

What we're dealing with today is basically just a modified socialist model. If it weren't for the media constantly breathing down our necks, most people might actually think we’re living in some kind of wonderland. But no, the news spends every single day making sure we know exactly how bad things are. Meanwhile, they make it sound like Cuba is some kind of paradise. I guess.☕

They don't have what I have—the status of being unemployed, which seems to be the one thing you love to spit on constantly here on this forum.

Are you sure you aren't just unemployed and looking for stuff to invent? Maybe you just love blaming everything on others or twisting what people actually write into some weird interpretation. Either show me actual proof using posts, or just stop making things up.

Karen Rodriguez3 said:Spot on.

What exactly are we talking about here? What is it that some people have while everyone else is left out in the cold? Are you seriously trying to tell me that only the "Todorićs" of the world are winning while everyone else is just out there grazing like sheep? I don't know about you, but looking around my neck of the woods, it’s just two of us working, plus maybe two neighbors from down the street. Everyone else—like ten or so people—is living off government handouts and doing just fine. That’s pretty much the average in the USA. I even know someone who gets subsidies for uncultivated fields she owns, and honestly, she doesn't even know why she qualifies. In a decent country, you’d be paying taxes on unused land, not getting a check for it.
Yeah, that’s definitely going to lead to most people actually having nothing one day. It's just basic math, really. But I guess Americans have always been pretty terrible at that kind of stuff. ☕

What we're dealing with today is basically just a modified socialist model. If it weren't for the media constantly breathing down our necks, most people might actually think we’re living in some kind of wonderland. But no, the news spends every single day making sure we know exactly how bad things are. Meanwhile, they make it sound like Cuba is some kind of paradise. I guess.☕

Who has nothing? People stuck in limbo—those who aren't part of the public sector (which is just a web of theft and nepotism) and don't have their own business. That includes those 400,000 unemployed souls. Those people truly have nothing. As far as I'm concerned, Cuban socialism is better than this American brand of nepotistic socio-capitalism.

I don't know... I guess Adam Moore11 is just going to claim I'm attacking unemployed people again, because that’s how he'll take it, obviously. But look, I know two people personally who turned down jobs at that big shopping mall opening up those two massive retail spots in downtown Chicago. One passed because the pay was just too low, and the other—who's 35 and hasn't even had a steady job in his life—just couldn't deal with having to walk a mile from the train station to the shop.
So, these folks actually have enough to get by. If things were different, they’d probably take the work. They've got a roof over their heads, electricity, food, phones, TV, money for going out, and healthcare covered. How?

Sure, there are definitely people struggling to survive, but you have to look at the whole picture if you want a fair comparison.

crimsonwolf20 said:Komentar:

Look, let's be real—a Mexican fisherman is basically just a lazy guy with zero sense of time management who doesn't bother saving a dime. He’s the type of person who’s going to be the first one running to the government for a handout the very second he comes home with an empty net! It isn't just about him potentially going hungry, either—I mean, if you aren't generating profit or building up some savings, you've got no roof over your head, no health insurance, and absolutely zero way to provide any kind of stability for your family's future. Honestly, society can only put up with a tiny handful of these freeloaders before things go south. If every single responsible adult acted this way, civilization would straight-up collapse within a decade!

If you ask me, a decent education for a kid should really wrap up like this:

Turist: Man, you seriously don't even have to work anymore—you can just kick back on the beach and totally chill!
Fisherman: Thanks, buddy, but that’s exactly what I’m already doing!

Turist: No, you just don't get it! Honestly, it’s always the same story—when you fail to grasp reality, you just sit there whining about how everyone else is responsible for your miserable luck. You'll be out there begging for handouts from people who actually put in the work and earn their keep. If you get a toothache or pick up some nasty parasites, you’ll start crying about how your "rights" to healthcare are being violated, demanding that the folks who actually planned for the future foot your medical bills. And if your kid goes hungry tomorrow? Well, you'll just demand that someone else feeds them since you failed to provide the absolute basics in the first place. You and your whole crowd are never going to amount to anything—seriously, nothing!—and that’s exactly why we want absolutely nothing to do with people like you.

👍

And if that tourist lecturing him is an American, then that fisherman probably ended up broke too. ☕

Karen Rodriguez3 said:I don't know... I guess Adam Moore11 is just going to claim I'm attacking unemployed people again, because that’s how he'll take it, obviously. But look, I know two people personally who turned down jobs at that big shopping mall opening up those two massive retail spots in downtown Chicago. One passed because the pay was just too low, and the other—who's 35 and hasn't even had a steady job in his life—just couldn't deal with having to walk a mile from the train station to the shop.
So, these folks actually have enough to get by. If things were different, they’d probably take the work. They've got a roof over their heads, electricity, food, phones, TV, money for going out, and healthcare covered. How?

Sure, there are definitely people struggling to survive, but you have to look at the whole picture if you want a fair comparison.

Oh, there are plenty of those types, I agree. A huge chunk of Americans have clearly secured just enough of a minimum standard to support lifelong unemployment. I don't fundamentally have anything against it; let people do whatever they want. But in America, you practically need to be a workaholic fanatic—a mix of Tesla/Gates/Jobs—just to launch a business today. The real issue is when people collect benefits while doing absolutely nothing, all while a mountain of others are desperate to work but can't find a single opening.

America is pushing this model of tourism plus massive debt. We'll see how long that lasts. There are entire counties where basically everyone either works in the public sector or is just—unemployed. To be specific, nobody is actually doing anything. 🤷

Tyler Jackson6 said:The UN just dropped their latest Human Development Index rankings,
and honestly, it’s pretty hilarious how America managed to stay completely stagnant—like, we didn't move an inch on the absolute value scale. Just sitting there while the rest of the world moves on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...t_of_countries

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/human...ment-index-hdi

😲

Meanwhile, Cuba actually managed to jump ahead of us.

I mean, think about it—you've got great weather year-round and universal healthcare that actually works for everyone,
it's more about living simply rather than constant excess,
and so, you know,
people end up living longer.
They aren't out here flaunting the latest iPhone or driving a BMW,
but they're arguably happier because they aren't drowning in debt, predatory loans, or seeing red numbers on their checking accounts every single month.
Since the whole concept of equality is actually taken seriously there,
there isn't this massive gap between the ultra-rich and the working class, which keeps the kind of crime you usually see in Latin America from tearing things apart.
No narco cartels to worry about either.

So, congrats to our dear, unranked nation.

🙂

Oh, sure. Just wait until democracy actually shows up. 👋

When you're traveling in Cuba, you can wander around totally freely! Honestly, I've never heard of anyone having even a single issue with the Cuban people. The only real headache occurs if you're driving and get into a wreck—you're automatically held liable, even if, in reality, it wasn't even your fault!

Tyler Howard said:The argument is that our version of the right wing is somehow more socially sensitive than the left
but that just isn't how the world works.

I mean, which right wing are we even talking about?🤷

I'm sorry, but I don't quite follow—could you clarify what you mean? It seems like a bit of a non sequitur, or perhaps just a stray thought. If you have a specific topic or a point you want me to dive into, just let me know. I'm all ears. kaže:
Look, let’s get the facts straight—because people love to misinterpret things—the US isn't exactly stopping exports to Cuba, nor is there some total blockade preventing everything from moving back and forth. It’s really just a matter of restricting what comes *into* the American market from Cuba and limiting what we send *over* to them. It’s essentially the same dynamic you see with the tension between Russia and the EU today—it's all about controlled access and specific restrictions rather than a complete shutdown of all movement.

And whose fault is it that they aren't trading through Mexico? Or some other similar country, for that matter. Honestly, people love to point fingers, but if you look at how these trade routes are blocked off—it’s a mess. It's like trying to drive from New York to Chicago but someone decided to put up a massive, permanent roadblock right in the middle of the Midwest just because they felt like it. You can't just blame one side and expect things to work. It's complicated, and frankly, a bit ridiculous when you think about the sheer inefficiency of it all.😁

Ashley Gonzalez12 said:And if that tourist lecturing him is an American, then that fisherman probably ended up broke too. ☕

He can lecture us all he wants—spout off his endless wisdom until he's blue in the face—but let’s be real: this local guy of mine isn't ever going to listen. He's just dug in.

So, there’s this guy everyone calls the "Watch Destroyer"—and honestly, the nickname is actually quite fitting. About fifteen years ago, he showed up to work carrying a literal thermos. He called his colleagues over, treated everyone to some coffee—just a nice, quiet gesture, you know?—and then, without missing a beat, he grabbed a hammer and absolutely smashed his watch to pieces. His reasoning? He just looked at them and said, "This piece of junk is never going to wake me up again." And wouldn't you know it? He wasn't kidding. Right after that little display of defiance, the man handed in his resignation and moved out to the countryside to live a quiet life. These days, he doesn't bother waking up before 10:00 AM. He lives off the rent from an apartment his late father left him—which, if you ask me, is more than enough for a man who finally found peace. $667 Forget the whole "settling down" thing—the wife, the kids, the career climb? Just forget it. Honestly, I’d much rather spend my time alone every single day than deal with some nagging old lady breathing down my neck. Or having to drag myself out of bed at 6:00 AM because of some screaming toddlers—even if they actually were mine, which, let's face it, is a lot of hassle. And what about the flashy car or the designer clothes? Please. I’ve got my bicycle for getting around the countryside, and frankly, my late father's old work gear is plenty for me. It’ll last forever since I barely work anyway. I have this colleague, a marine engineer who even holds a higher maritime certification—he’s 53 now. This guy hasn't worked a real job since he was 38. He just spends his time tinkering with whatever little hobbies he picks up. Life is better when you aren't chasing the rat race.

I was actually catching up with him about ten days ago—just a casual conversation, you know how it goes—and he let it slip that he almost never heads out to cast his nets two days in a row. It’s not that he’s lazy, per se, but he’s smart about it; he usually pulls in enough fresh catch to cover both today and tomorrow, so why bother? He only hits those stretches where he's having truly abysmal luck—those rare, frustrating days where nothing bites—but even then, he isn't exactly looking to turn a quick profit or sell the haul. He just does it.

Nicholas Nguyen said:True enough, though people seem to forget that Cuba has been under sanctions from the U.S.—and by extension, its allies—for roughly fifty years now.
Restricting the import and export of essential goods and raw materials certainly stunts any meaningful economic growth in Cuba.

But this ranking just highlights how a bunch of incompetent, corrupt bureaucrats are running the show. It’s pathetic.

I'm a bit confused here—how can anyone call it a socialist paradise when its survival depends so heavily on trading with the USA????
Besides, if the US is actually the fifth largest importer for Cuba, then the whole blockade argument starts to fall apart.

Sam Wright21 said:My understanding of Cuba is shaped by reading Houellebecq's platform and listening to the firsthand accounts of a friend who actually spent time there. There is a profound level of poverty 😢 As a tourist, you’re essentially barred from even stepping foot into the local dive bars where the average Cuban gathers. Cars are a luxury almost no one possesses, and the public transit system is so unreliable that people are constantly being pulled over just trying to make it to their shifts. Then again, I can't help but wonder if this misery wouldn't be so pervasive if it weren't for the decades-long blockade imposed by the USA.
Despite the deprivation, there’s a certain resilience there—they sing, they dance, they find ways to celebrate with whatever scraps they have left. Perhaps the tropical climate provides a buffer; the mere thought of them facing a brutal winter like ours makes me shudder.

It was all quite a spectacle. Whatever the fascists stole, the partisans simply reclaimed, but frankly, it’s beneath me to debate such things with Krinica.

What an absurd notion. While limiting imports might occasionally make sense, placing restrictions on exports is a recipe for disaster.🤦

Oh, come on—do you honestly think the people whose products are being blocked at the border are just going to sit there and take it? No way. They’ll probably—quite coincidentally, I might add—decide to slap some restrictions on your exports too, wouldn't they?

Just stop trying to complicate things you clearly don't grasp...

Honestly, these numbers are a disaster for us. I mean, it’s kind of surreal—we’re being outpaced by a country that’s been grinding under some of the most brutal and illegal sanctions on the planet for decades. Even North Korea didn't have anything quite like this until recently, I guess.
If we were hit with a ban on luxury imports like BMW or Audi, we’d probably be starving within three months. The few people left with any actual capital would just pack up, leave America for good, and burn every bridge behind them...

A little something for those who like to downplay the impact of these illegal, aggressive (according to the UN) sanctions against Cuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...o_against_Cuba

Helms-Burton Act

Burton Act was condemned by the Council of Europe, the European Union, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and other U.S. allies that enjoy normal trade relations with Cuba. The governments argued that the law ran counter to the spirit of international law and sovereignty.

Following a complaint filed by the European Union with the WTO, a dispute settlement panel was set up. Eventually, they paused everything to try and hammer out a deal through negotiations. A year later, the panel basically lost its authority over the situation, and the EU just... stopped pursuing it through the WTO.

The law has also been condemned by humanitarian groups because these groups argue that sanctions against an entire country will affect only the innocent population.

The law provides for compensation of only the largest of claims for confiscated property, which mostly means big multinational corporations (we're talking roughly $6 billion). It pretty much ignores the claims of individual members of the exiled Cuban-American community who lost their own homes.

The European Union introduced a Council Regulation (No 2271/96) [9]—which is binding for all member states—declaring that the extraterritorial parts of the Helms-Burton Act aren't enforceable in the EU, while also allowing for the recovery of damages caused by it. The EU law also applied sanctions against US companies and their executives for making Title II complaints.

Read more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_S...nhancement_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Democracy_Act

Sanctions against Cuba for beginners