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Sanctions on Russia

Started by Richard Wilson4 · · 👁 668 views · 9.5K replies

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analogbear5 analogbear5 Regular
571 messages
joined Aug 2019
#5321 ·
urbanotter said:To make those bold claims work, you need energy and raw materials to actually create a product.

And when it comes to the fallout from sanctions, energy and raw materials are the ultimate deciding factors.

p.s.
If you have the labor and the brains but zero raw materials, you're basically just spinning your wheels in the mud.

Anyone who points out these realities is immediately labeled a "Russ supporter" and treated like an outcast, both in general discourse and right here on this forum.

Points stand. I wouldn't go as far as saying they'll run completely dry on resources, but prices have spiked hard because of this—especially stuff like palladium and titanium.

It all boils down to how we choose to respond to Russia's aggression against Ukraine:

- Military action.
- If not military, then sanctions.
- If not sanctions, then there's no response at all.

Some people are fine with military intervention because they're willing to pay that price.

Others hate the idea of military intervention because they won't foot that bill, but they're okay with the cost of sanctions.

Then there are those who aren't down with military action *or* sanctions because they don't want to pay either—they'd rather just pay the price of letting the invasion of Ukraine slide. For some, that cost is negligible; for others, it doesn't even exist. Some actually support the Russian invasion.

Between all these factions, there’s never going to be any meaningful dialogue.
swiftjackal11 swiftjackal11 Regular
271 messages
joined May 2018
#5322 ·
ExxonMobil shareholders didn't reach a decision at their annual meeting regarding profit distribution or dividend payouts for 2021, according to an official company announcement today.
The folks on the forums who support Russia already have an excuse ready for this too.
urbanotter urbanotter Regular
431 messages
joined Oct 2020
#5323 ·
analogbear5 said:Points stand. I wouldn't go as far as saying they'll run completely dry on resources, but prices have spiked hard because of this—especially stuff like palladium and titanium.

It all boils down to how we choose to respond to Russia's aggression against Ukraine:

- Military action.
- If not military, then sanctions.
- If not sanctions, then there's no response at all.

Some people are fine with military intervention because they're willing to pay that price.

Others hate the idea of military intervention because they won't foot that bill, but they're okay with the cost of sanctions.

Then there are those who aren't down with military action *or* sanctions because they don't want to pay either—they'd rather just pay the price of letting the invasion of Ukraine slide. For some, that cost is negligible; for others, it doesn't even exist. Some actually support the Russian invasion.

Between all these factions, there’s never going to be any meaningful dialogue.


I agree that we won't run entirely dry on energy and raw materials, but the costs are going to skyrocket.
The European economy is heavily export and import-oriented; it possesses the technology and the expertise, but it is incredibly poor in terms of energy resources and raw materials, making it deeply dependent on imports.
Even after the war in Ukraine ends, energy and raw materials will remain expensive, largely because other developing nations have realized they can command much higher prices for their natural wealth.
With more expensive energy and materials, the European economy will struggle to stay competitive, and manufacturing will steadily migrate toward the East and toward countries that sit on vast reserves of fuel and ore.
In this shift—or during this expansion of industry in developing nations—global capital will play a major role, because capital doesn't care about borders; it only cares about profit.

Consequently, Europe is facing its darkest days ahead, characterized by a loss of competitiveness that will inevitably lead to job losses.

There is no doubt that sanctions hurt Russia, the target of these measures, but they arguably cause even more damage to Europe, which implements them to weaken Russia economically—a move that ultimately undermines Europe's own military strength and its ability to project power globally.
However, the sanctions haven't achieved the intended result; instead, they’ve produced the opposite effect, weakening Europe more than Russia, all while triggering a new arms race that demands ever-larger slices of the national budgets.

I have been saying this since day one, and my stance hasn't changed.
We should have applied maximum pressure, but not just on Russia—we needed to apply it to the nationalist government in Kyiv as well. We should have sat down with all the major world powers to negotiate a solution, with everyone acting as a guarantor to ensure any agreement was actually upheld.
Clearly, the West and the US haven't found that acceptable; instead, they continue to push forward through sanctions, arming Ukrainian nationalists, and now doubling down on expanding their own military capabilities.
This is just driving us further into an arms race, with massive spending on defense, all while moving closer to someone eventually hitting the "red button" and everything going to hell.
After that happens, it won't matter who won or lost; if anyone survives such an apocalypse, they will be living in a world that looks nothing like the one we know today.

Ultimately, the goal must be peace, peace, peace—true peace achieved through an agreement on new relations, so we can return to living in a safer environment, working, and enjoying the simple things in life just as we did before this tragic war began.
So, if that makes me a Putin supporter in the eyes of some, I'll gladly take the label.
As long as the fighting stops and peace returns, because we have absolutely no right to rob our children and grandchildren of their right to live.
We’re essentially just borrowing this planet from those who come after us rather than truly owning it, though we often act as if it’s ours to do with as we please.
It might sound like a bit of a cliché, I know, but I really believe these words are both fitting and necessary given everything happening in the world right now.
darkdriver darkdriver Active Member
153 messages
joined Jun 2022
#5324 ·
Joshua Myers432 said:Of course, people assume you can just flip a switch and start mass-producing something as complex as a modern vehicle—and I'm not talking about some boutique Tesla operation making two cars a year. This Chinese scrap metal only looks modern because they shamelessly ripped off the styling. Copying a silhouette is easy; try copying what's actually under the hood.

Then there are the ones who genuinely believe China is going to churn out ten aircraft carriers tomorrow and kick Americans out of the Pacific Ocean. 🤦 They might build ten ships and slap an "aircraft carrier" label on them, but the US has a century of expertise and institutional knowledge on this. We're looking at a gap that won't be closed for at least another twenty years.

The Chinese are basically praying—or whoever it is they pray to, if they even do that—that Western political elites stay exactly as they are right now: just average Western consumers who swallow everything, especially all that Western propaganda and cheap Chinese goods.
By doing that, they’re already way ahead of the West when it comes to any future conflict, which feels like it's just a matter of time, I guess.
darkdriver darkdriver Active Member
153 messages
joined Jun 2022
#5325 ·
steelfox98 said:The reverse is just as true. It won't hit Germany quite as hard, but losing access to a market of 140 million people also leads to layoffs.

And where exactly are they going to get the raw materials? Unlike the struggling European Union, which country on this planet actually holds the most resources? Even if they manage to grab some, how can they possibly compete with the Chinese, who will secure everything at a fraction of the cost compared to Russia?
Or are we just switching to manufacturing things out of thin air?

Do I really need to remind everyone how all those self-proclaimed "experts" predicted Russia would collapse within a month, yet now it's the European Union shivering in fear of the upcoming winter?
A few days ago, Macron "accidentally" found himself explaining the situation to Biden in front of the press. Not to mention how the European Union hasn't even implemented sanctions on Russian gold—they're still just "considering" it, which is trivial compared to the energy crisis facing Europe.
Clearly, they've realized sanctions are a double-edged sword that cuts us just as deeply. Of course, that doesn't apply to those living off their parents' dime, blissfully unaware of what's happening around them.

The Macron - Biden scene is pure surrealism:

It's like watching old school comedy legends back in their prime🤣 🤣 🤣
This French guy is going on and on about oil supplies—and I guess Joe is just sitting there wondering when his nurse is gonna show up to change his diaper.
darkdriver darkdriver Active Member
153 messages
joined Jun 2022
#5326 ·
hollowdriver13 said:So, apparently Russia is somehow "thriving" under all those sanctions. You know how it goes—the folks close to Putin keep insisting they’re stronger than ever despite the West hitting them with everything they've got. But if you actually look at the numbers, the reality tells a pretty different story. Check out this comparison from May 21/22

https://census.gov/compendium/document/50801

I pulled some of the biggest drops to show just how much these industries are actually struggling right now.

Ford: -96.7% (3,700 vehicles)
Freightliner: -39.3%
ICE motors: -57%
Passenger rail cars: -59.8%
Freight cars: -51.8%
Fiberglass cables: -80.8%
Whirlpool: -58.1%
Washing machines: -59.2%
AC electric motors: -49.9%
Elevators: -34.7%
Excavators: -60%

I still don't really get what any of this means for your average Russian—you know, the people living outside of Moscow or Saint Petersburg, who probably don't even have a flushing toilet, running water, or a washing machine, and have definitely never even tasted Nutella. And let's be real, most people fall into that category, right?
Anthony Hill5 Anthony Hill5 Regular
379 messages
joined May 2024
#5327 ·
darkdriver said:I still don't really get what any of this means for your average Russian—you know, the people living outside of Moscow or Saint Petersburg, who probably don't even have a flushing toilet, running water, or a washing machine, and have definitely never even tasted Nutella. And let's be real, most people fall into that category, right?

It matters immensely to them, because finally, those in New York and Los Angeles will be able to reach the standard of living enjoyed by the average American living elsewhere. Life will become significantly more pleasant once we are no longer burdened by the petty envy of those residing outside of the major metropolitan centers.
Bryan Booth82 Bryan Booth82 Regular
483 messages
joined Feb 2024
#5328 ·
Isn't it just pathetic? The Ruble is never gaining any ground, and frankly, nobody even wants it...

lp
slyfox43 slyfox43 Regular
292 messages
joined May 2023
#5329 ·
It’s just far too expensive; I mean, who can actually justify that kind of price tag?
silentnomad7 silentnomad7 Active Member
127 messages
joined Jan 2018
#5330 ·
urbanotter said:I honestly don't see how my being a bit of an outlier has anything to do with what the CEO of the VBW, Bertram Brossardt, actually stated.

"A sudden halt in Russian gas imports would significantly impact the workforce in Germany. Mathematically speaking, the consequences would affect roughly 5.6 million jobs," said Bertram Brossardt, the CEO of the VBW.


It seems like you're stuck for a real rebuttal, so you're just veering off-topic and hallucinating these supposed "Putin supporters" out of thin air.

What a reach. 😁

The main thing is that you're sitting there worrying about the struggling German economy. 😁

The German economy is basically a monster that has pulled millions of workers away from poorer nations, essentially growing at the expense of half the European Union.

So, honestly, it might actually be a good thing if those layoffs happen, because maybe some people would head back to their home countries where there’s a serious labor shortage...

And there's really no need to fear for the workers from these regions; the Germans aren't exactly looking to take over those specific jobs anyway...
Donna Harris11 Donna Harris11 Active Member
164 messages
joined Oct 2018
#5331 ·
https://nypost.com/2022/06/30/biden-...raine-victory/

Joe Biden: Gas prices will stay high for however long it takes to win in Ukraine

The complaining just won't stop

recession is coming soon
analogbear5 analogbear5 Regular
571 messages
joined Aug 2019
#5332 ·
And here I was, thinking the US was actually making a killing off this war.
brightheron64 brightheron64 Regular
408 messages
joined Apr 2016
#5333 ·
"American agriculture is raking it in,"

And yet, here we go again tonight, listening to everyone moan about how grain buyers are only offering them maybe $2.00 or $2.10 per pound at most...

So much for all that panic regarding global food shortages...
Ronald Chavez2 Ronald Chavez2 Active Member
121 messages
joined Feb 2023
#5334 ·
analogbear5 said:And here I was, thinking the US was actually making a killing off this war.

The American oligarchy is certainly reaping the rewards, especially the arms dealers and the big oil players, but does anyone actually give a damn about the average Joe who's getting crushed by inflation while working two jobs just to stay afloat? It's all going to end in nothing but tears and outrage once the next Trump rolls into office.
darkdriver darkdriver Active Member
153 messages
joined Jun 2022
#5335 ·
Anthony Hill5 said:It matters immensely to them, because finally, those in New York and Los Angeles will be able to reach the standard of living enjoyed by the average American living elsewhere. Life will become significantly more pleasant once we are no longer burdened by the petty envy of those residing outside of the major metropolitan centers.

Since those folks only make up about 10% of the population, they're really gonna have to deal with the reality of the majority
No Nutella for them
analogbear5 analogbear5 Regular
571 messages
joined Aug 2019
#5336 ·
The 1% who own more than half the country? Yeah, they’re definitely going to make it out alive.

image
Amanda Allen4 Amanda Allen4 Active Member
238 messages
joined Feb 2013
#5337 ·
analogbear5 said:The 1% who own more than half the country? Yeah, they’re definitely going to make it out alive.

image

Middle Eastern style capitalism is actually far more efficient at wealth distribution than the classical model—and besides, it paves the way for a stable, autocratic regime, unlike our own democratic system which is nothing but volatile and unstable!
urbanotter urbanotter Regular
431 messages
joined Oct 2020
#5338 ·
silentnomad7 said:What a reach. 😁

The main thing is that you're sitting there worrying about the struggling German economy. 😁

The German economy is basically a monster that has pulled millions of workers away from poorer nations, essentially growing at the expense of half the European Union.

So, honestly, it might actually be a good thing if those layoffs happen, because maybe some people would head back to their home countries where there’s a serious labor shortage...

And there's really no need to fear for the workers from these regions; the Germans aren't exactly looking to take over those specific jobs anyway...

As I was simply relaying what Bertram Brossardt, the CEO of VBW, had to say, you should probably try explaining this "struggle" to him rather than to me.

I wasn't labeling the economy as weak or strong, though it isn't exactly a secret that they've maintained a constant trade surplus—so you are right when you suggest they have developed at the expense of much of the EU.

However, the reality is that they are heavily dependent on imported energy and raw materials; any spike in those prices will hit them much harder than economies that possess their own domestic energy and resource supplies.

I'm not personally worried, but logic suggests that if a recession hits and job numbers start dropping, it will be the immigrants who lose their positions first, rather than the native Germans or citizens.

It isn't just the Germans; many people generally don't want to "do certain types of work," but when there's no other option, they very quickly accept whatever the labor market offers instead of what they would prefer to do.
We see this pattern quite often back home, where our "younger generation" tends to be among the oldest when it comes to finally leaving the nest and becoming independent.
So, if anyone should be concerned about the workers from those areas, it should be their aunts, their mothers, or the government, not me.
As far as I am concerned, being a retiree, I stand to benefit; if these people are working here instead of just leaning on their parents, they contribute to the system, which helps ensure my pension increases and remains secure.
They say that underestimating your opponent is a surefire way to lose the game.
And that is exactly what happened to the West when they implemented those sanctions; I am certainly not the first or only person to notice that the sanctions aren't producing the desired or expected results.
swiftjackal11 swiftjackal11 Regular
271 messages
joined May 2018
#5339 ·
urbanotter said:As I was simply relaying what Bertram Brossardt, the CEO of VBW, had to say, you should probably try explaining this "struggle" to him rather than to me.

I wasn't labeling the economy as weak or strong, though it isn't exactly a secret that they've maintained a constant trade surplus—so you are right when you suggest they have developed at the expense of much of the EU.

However, the reality is that they are heavily dependent on imported energy and raw materials; any spike in those prices will hit them much harder than economies that possess their own domestic energy and resource supplies.

I'm not personally worried, but logic suggests that if a recession hits and job numbers start dropping, it will be the immigrants who lose their positions first, rather than the native Germans or citizens.

It isn't just the Germans; many people generally don't want to "do certain types of work," but when there's no other option, they very quickly accept whatever the labor market offers instead of what they would prefer to do.
We see this pattern quite often back home, where our "younger generation" tends to be among the oldest when it comes to finally leaving the nest and becoming independent.
So, if anyone should be concerned about the workers from those areas, it should be their aunts, their mothers, or the government, not me.
As far as I am concerned, being a retiree, I stand to benefit; if these people are working here instead of just leaning on their parents, they contribute to the system, which helps ensure my pension increases and remains secure.
They say that underestimating your opponent is a surefire way to lose the game.
And that is exactly what happened to the West when they implemented those sanctions; I am certainly not the first or only person to notice that the sanctions aren't producing the desired or expected results.

Sanctions definitely work. As soon as Russia starts crying about it, you know something is actually happening. We aren't looking at the immediate fallout here; we're looking at the next century. A hundred years from now, when Russia takes stock of everything, they'll see exactly how much oil and gas they pumped out since this war with Ukraine started, and realize just how much more they could have moved if things hadn't gone south.
urbanotter urbanotter Regular
431 messages
joined Oct 2020
#5340 ·
swiftjackal11 to say:
Sanctions actually work, even if it doesn't feel like it right this second. Whenever we hear the Kremlin starting to whine about their economic struggles, you know something is actually shifting under the surface. We shouldn't be looking at this through the lens of next week or even next year; we have to look at the long game, stretching out over the next century. When the dust finally settles in a hundred years and they sit down to audit their history, they’re going to see exactly how much oil and gas they pumped out while fueling this conflict with Ukraine, and they'll realize just how much wealth they could have built if they hadn't chosen this path.

My crystal ball seems to be showing me a slightly different picture than yours, though I definitely agree that...
In a hundred years, I think everything will finally settle into focus, and we'll be able to see the full picture with much more clarity than we can right now.
I didn't mean to imply, nor would I ever suggest, that the sanctions aren't having an actual impact on the Russian economy. It isn't my intention to downplay the effects they're having.
I was just making the point that the sanctions haven't exactly delivered the knockout blow that the people who pushed them through were counting on. It feels like we expected a certain level of impact, but in reality, things haven't played out quite the way the architects of those policies envisioned.
If I look at my crystal ball and weigh it against the hard facts we have right now, a pretty clear picture starts to emerge. Even though there’s been a noticeable dip in how much energy and raw materials Russia is shipping out to the West, they aren't just sitting idle. Instead, they are pivoting hard toward the Far East. It seems like their cooperation with countries like China and India is not only strengthening but actually accelerating. From what I can see, exports to those nations are climbing rapidly, and honestly, it looks like that upward trend is only going to get stronger from here.
It’s an undeniable reality that exports to Western nations have shifted significantly lately. Most of these countries have effectively shut the door on Russian energy, raw materials, and even food supplies—not through any natural shift in market demand or organic economic trends, but through sheer administrative force and political pressure. It isn't about what the market wants; it's about what policy dictates.

It feels like there’s this constant, forced comparison being made regarding a whole range of products that Russia has never actually mastered on a large scale. In reality, they’ve mostly just been importing these goods, using the surplus money generated from exporting strategic energy resources, raw materials, and—more recently—food supplies. It reminds me of those times back in the day when certain industries seemed robust, only to realize they were entirely dependent on external supply chains fueled by commodity exports.
I honestly don't think it ever crosses the minds of the leadership in Russia to try and go toe-to-toe with the West when it comes to manufacturing things like washing machines, refrigerators, cars, or even escalators—assuming you'd count those under the broader umbrella of elevators.
Russia has always struggled with a deficit when it comes to consumer goods, relying heavily on imports to satisfy its people. Once the Iron Curtain finally fell, it opened up a massive window of opportunity for foreign investors to step in and set up shop. By pouring capital into the country, these international players were able to jumpstart local manufacturing while introducing much more sophisticated technology than anything that had been available back during the USSR era.
Once the sanctions kicked in and international companies pulled their manufacturing operations out of Russia, it became almost inevitable that production levels for those specific goods would take a massive hit. It’s just basic economics, really. I remember watching similar shifts during my time working in supply chain logistics back in the Midwest; when the big players decide to exit a market overnight, the resulting vacuum causes an immediate and predictable decline in output. You can't just flip a switch and expect things to stay steady when the entire industrial foundation is being dismantled.
I have a feeling—if I were to consult a crystal ball—that Russia isn't actually going to pour much more energy into ramping up their own domestic manufacturing for these goods. It seems far more likely that they’ll just keep importing them like they always have; the only real difference is that instead of sourcing everything from Western markets, they'll be looking toward the East to fill the gap.
When you look at the trajectory of economies like China and India, it becomes clear that they are both still seeing significant growth. However, the real question remains whether they can actually manage to bridge the gap left by Western imports. Once those sanctions hit and the flow of goods from the US and Europe dries up, these nations face the massive challenge of finding domestic ways to replace everything they used to rely on from the West. It’s a complex transition, and I often wonder if their internal manufacturing will ever truly catch up to what we've been used to providing.
This shift seems to be working quite well for China, especially since they’re running into more and more roadblocks when trying to ship their goods over to Western markets. I honestly think they’ll find a lot of satisfaction in pivoting their strategy; as it becomes increasingly difficult to move products toward the West, they’ll likely just lean harder into exporting to Russia and the rest of the BRICS nations instead. It feels like a natural redirection of their economic energy.
I’ve been thinking quite a bit about where Russia is heading, and I honestly believe their primary focus will continue to be heavily weighted toward space exploration and military tech. It seems like that's where they see the most strategic value. Beyond that, they’re going to lean even harder into exporting energy and raw materials, though I suspect we’ll see them pivot more toward basic food staples as well. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a colleague a few years back regarding global supply chains—how quickly a nation can shift from being an industrial powerhouse to relying on its agricultural exports to maintain leverage. It feels like a very deliberate, calculated move to secure influence through different types of essential resources.
So, despite what some people might claim while staring into their crystal balls, the Russian economy isn't just going to collapse simply because production numbers for washing machines or cars have taken a dip. It’s easy to get caught up in those specific manufacturing statistics, but looking at the bigger picture tells a much different story than the one being sold by the alarmists.
When you look at the big picture, it’s clear that Russia isn't truly a global economic powerhouse in the way we usually define it. They aren't driving the world economy through high-tech manufacturing, like churning out advanced washing machines or sophisticated automobiles. Instead, their entire influence rests on much more primal pillars: energy, raw materials, and food supplies. Honestly, I feel like anyone trying to meticulously track every single export and import of those specific commodities is wasting their breath; it’s an exhausting amount of effort for very little payoff when you realize that's essentially their entire playbook.
It feels like we really need to be keeping a much closer eye on the flow of energy, raw materials, and all those essential food supplies coming out of Russia.
It isn’t the European portion of Russia or their manufacturing of household appliances that actually makes them a global superpower; rather, their true influence on the world stage stems from the vastness of Siberia and the sheer wealth of resources being extracted from its soil.
I suppose everyone is entitled to their own crystal ball, and like you mentioned, once a century has passed—though my mother would argue we won't have to wait that long—it will be much easier to see exactly who actually profited from all these sanctions and who simply shot themselves in the foot for no reason at all.
I find myself nodding along with what President Biden has been saying regarding the sheer scale of the situation; there’s just no way to realistically defeat Russia through military force alone, let alone by trying to outmaneuver them economically. It’s one of those heavy, sobering realities that you have to sit with for a while. I remember watching a documentary on global logistics a few years back, and it really drove home how interconnected—and fragile—these massive power structures actually are. When you're dealing with a nation of that size and resource depth, any attempt at a total victory feels less like a strategic goal and more like an impossible uphill battle against the laws of physics. It’s a daunting thought, but I think it's important to be honest about it.
Unless there is an actual military victory over Russia that results in securing all those vast natural resources, there isn't really a "victory" to speak of;
instead, this entire confrontation just serves to ramp up the terrifying risks of World War III and the total apocalypse that follows.

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