2017 NASCAR Season

mellowtiger83 said:Hamilton is also a hard worker and knows every aspect of the car; in fact, the experts constantly praise him for being an incredibly high-quality development driver with excellent feedback.

Set aside Hamilton's private life; just because he is under the media spotlight doesn't mean it signifies anything of substance.

The whole Senna debate has been discussed for ages. Even if he outperformed Alain Prost in the same car, let's move past point-scoring pedantry and such nonsense. Prost could only have stayed ahead if Ayrton Senna had given up, which happened in very few instances. And no, this isn't myth-making, at least not from my perspective, as I was a supporter of Prost.

Vettel as a tactician? Vettel being exceptionally clever? I could provide twenty or thirty examples to debunk that. Vettel is just as raw as Hamilton and isn't even slightly more calculating than him, nor is he any calmer.

Let me enlighten you with one simple fact. We can clearly see that Mercedes-Benz absolutely devours their tires, whereas Ferrari manages them much better—which gives them a massive advantage during race conditions. Back in 2016, while Vettel was busy doing all those Pirelli tests, Hamilton was out there tearing up the tracks across America.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...y-time-890111/

Lujo says that tire testing feels like a total waste of his time. ☕

Vettel realizes that his 2017 season actually started last year, but apparently, Lujo still hasn't quite wrapped his head around that.
Case closed.

jadeseal7 said:Let me enlighten you with one simple fact. We can clearly see that Mercedes-Benz absolutely devours their tires, whereas Ferrari manages them much better—which gives them a massive advantage during race conditions. Back in 2016, while Vettel was busy doing all those Pirelli tests, Hamilton was out there tearing up the tracks across America.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...y-time-890111/

Lujo says that tire testing feels like a total waste of his time. ☕

Vettel realizes that his 2017 season actually started last year, but apparently, Lujo still hasn't quite wrapped his head around that.
Case closed.

Because do you know why those tire tests were such a waste of time?

The reason Mercedes-Benz eats through tires is because they have minor issues with the rear end. That's it. They will likely fix it quickly if they haven't already during these current tests.

Lujo sees everything perfectly clearly, and I can already tell you think Vettel will be better this year even though the season hasn't properly kicked off yet. To my eyes, things look pretty even. It’s nice to spread optimism, but you're about 1 or 2 months too early.

Hamilton can tear up the USA all he wants, but that won't stop him from giving his absolute maximum and beating Sebastian Vettel.

mellowtiger83 said:Because do you know why those tire tests were such a waste of time?

The reason Mercedes-Benz eats through tires is because they have minor issues with the rear end. That's it. They will likely fix it quickly if they haven't already during these current tests.

Lujo sees everything perfectly clearly, and I can already tell you think Vettel will be better this year even though the season hasn't properly kicked off yet. To my eyes, things look pretty even. It’s nice to spread optimism, but you're about 1 or 2 months too early.

Hamilton can tear up the USA all he wants, but that won't stop him from giving his absolute maximum and beating Sebastian Vettel.

To put it in the words of Sebastian Vettel—every single moment spent behind the wheel isn't a waste of time; it’s actually a chance to pick up something new. That's just how this guy operates. ☕

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Hamilton seemed a little checked out there; even though he's such a die-hard fan, it actually caught me off guard how much he was just coasting. And clearly, it wasn't even about losing time.

Guys, you've lost the plot a little bit. Hamilton finished up that test and then stated

mellowtiger83 said:Guys, you've lost the plot a little bit. Hamilton finished up that test and then stated

He didn't finish it because he "wasn't feeling great."

Should we start a fresh poll within this thread, limiting the options strictly to those drivers we actually believe have a legitimate shot at clinching a championship?

William Bennett53 said:Should we start a fresh poll within this thread, limiting the options strictly to those drivers we actually believe have a legitimate shot at clinching a championship?

I'm down for that!

I honestly can't help but roll my eyes at these journalists who just won't let the whole overtaking debate die.

Last year in Bahrain, we saw 50 overtakes—this year, there were only 14. If you ask me, which race was actually better? It’s pretty simple when you look at it that way.

It really isn't about the sheer quantity; it's all about the quality of the moves.

jadeseal7 said:He didn't finish it because he "wasn't feeling great."

🤣, when a test is essentially irrelevant, why on earth would you bother testing tires on an old chassis that's been refurbished just to look new? It's a complete waste of time. That's what test drivers exist for.

mellowtiger83 said:The reason is simple: Ham was stuck in traffic during the lap you're referencing. He backed off early because he saw there was no point. If this race had gone five laps longer, we could have looked at comparable split times, and I wouldn't be surprised if he left Vettel sitting right in his diffuser.

Someone mentioned that Ham had fresher tires. Sure, but they weren't significantly newer by lap count. The man carved twenty seconds out of Vettel and Bottas in a single stint. If we set aside Vettel—who likely wasn't even pushing to the limit—we're looking at Bottas, whom Hamilton didn't just beat by ten seconds, but pulled fourteen seconds ahead of by the finish.

Aside from the rubber, someone brought up clear track conditions. He had just as much open air as the two drivers ahead of him.

You all want to watch a spectacle, a full-tilt sprint without worrying about tire degradation or fuel loads. I am telling you, when Hamilton doesn't have to manage his resources, he is the premier driver in Formula 1. In those raw, uncalculated conditions, he is peerless.

Then there is the mention of Rosberg. Of course he’s in a different league compared to Bottas or that erratic Raikkonen. At the very least, he would have secured Pole position without compromising his race setup. I have said this repeatedly: Rosberg was a qualifying alien throughout his entire career. That is precisely where his dominance over Bottas lies, even if they did possess equal race pace—which, let's be honest, they don't.

God, the lying is unreal. 🤣
Man, you were born in the wrong era. Back thirty years ago, when data wasn't exactly easy to find, people might have actually swallowed those myths. But today? Not a chance. You can't pull that stuff anymore.🙂
Look, this isn't some "maybe" scenario where we sit around debating things that might or might not actually happen. Let's get real. 🤦

Poor old Hamilton was stuck in traffic. 🙂 And Vettel wasn't even doing that just a moment ago. 🙂
Lewis Hamilton vs. Sebastian Vettel. It’s the matchup that defined an entire era of Formula 1. One was a master of precision and tire management, the other a relentless force who could bully a car into submission. Watching them go head-to-head was like watching two different philosophies of speed collide on the asphalt.
Take a look at those last few laps...
Hamilton hadn't even hit traffic around laps 53-54 yet, so his pace wasn't actually that much faster than Vettel's in lap 55. He probably could have chipped away at him by maybe 2 or 4 tenths per lap, but as far as my math skills go, over five laps? That difference wouldn't have meant jack shit.
Maybe I could squeeze out 20, but 5? Yeah, not happening.

Look, Mario, let's get one thing straight: Hamilton and Vettel weren't even in the same league there. Hamilton didn't quite pull off that overtake like Vettel did.
Some people didn't even bother waiting for Hamilton to reach them—look at Alonso and Marcus Ericsson, they just gave up early. 😉

Not exactly many laps on those fresh tires...
Only 8 laps ahead of Sebastian Vettel and... Only 11 laps ahead of Bottas.Whatever, it’s just a minor detail. 😁

You might have been watching, but I’ve got a feeling you didn't actually see a thing...
Mercedes went with a totally different strategy for Bottas and Hamilton, and that was basically it.
Bottas was flying during that short stint in the middle, then totally fell off a cliff during the long stretch at the end...
Meanwhile, Hamilton was dragging his feet during that long middle stint while he was stuck shuffling behind Bottas, only to suddenly find insane pace during that short burst at the end...

mellowtiger83 said:Well, whether Vettel is a genius or an alien, it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

In certain aspects, he's better than Hamilton; in others, he's worse. It's all quite close, really.

When you look at raw pace on track—when there's no need to baby the tires or conserve fuel—he might be slightly behind.

I think you've misread the situation. It would be wise to watch those final 20 laps Hamilton drives. Just because Vettel didn't have to manage things on a particular day doesn't mean he hasn't done it before or won't do it again.

If you look closely enough, the two of them are actually quite similar. Both are immense talents, and both possess massive egos.

You claim Vettel hasn't performed miracles. Go check the history at Spa-Francorchamps and try to guess which year I'm talking about. He didn't win that one, yet he put on one of the most impressive drives out there during a day where he didn't beat Hamilton.

I never claimed Hamilton was a genius simply because he saved his engine and tires. If anything, he used to be rather tedious. He seems to have lost that edge, almost as if he's matured, which isn't necessarily an improvement.

"Slightly behind," you say...

When it comes to pure raw pace, Vettel is a once-in-a-generation talent on this entire grid, even compared to Hamilton...
The difference is he doesn't just do it for nothing; he does it when it actually matters and makes sense. 😉

Go watch being Singapore 2013 and then come talk to me...
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...nando%20Alonso
The SC completely screwed Vettel right after his Pit stop, and everyone was convinced the win had vanished into thin air...
Then BOOM—he goes on this insane tear from laps 31 to 44, leaving the entire field that benefited from the tire changes under the SC (including his own teammate in the exact same car) dead in the dust. He even gained an extra pit stop over them...
That furious pace where he built a 25-second lead over everyone else in just 13 laps... 😳
He was 2 damn seconds faster than anyone else on track during every single one of those 13 laps, and he was doing it on mediums, not Softs or Supersoft tires...
And this wasn't some easy Sunday drive; it was a street circuit that demands absolute concentration and physical grit...

And what do the British media have to say about it?
They immediately jump straight into conspiracy theories about how Vettel must have had traction control or whatever nonsense...
All based on basically hearing some rumor from someone who heard it from a guy in a bathroom on the third floor of some building... they heard some guy mention that Vettel had TC on his car 🤣

mellowtiger83 said:http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/vi...s_good_for_F1/

Here is an analysis regarding Vettel's driving capabilities.

Your previous post was nothing more than pure fanboyism.

And I have no idea where you got the notion that Hamilton was destroying his Power Unit; perhaps it was simply because he was fast.

By the way, Schumacher and those legendary years have absolutely no connection to Vettel or this current Ferrari era.

There is a massive difference: Schumacher could still perform even when the car was failing him.

The British? Please. They have no clue what fanboyism even looks like when it's an Englishman versus a German—or basically any Englishman versus anyone else. 😁
Of course, they're always right, and sure, Red Bull Racing was just this dominant car built solely and exclusively for Vettel.
They probably redesigned the whole thing halfway through the 2007 season just to suit him. 🙂

mellowtiger83 said:🤣, when a test is essentially irrelevant, why on earth would you bother testing tires on an old chassis that's been refurbished just to look new? It's a complete waste of time. That's what test drivers exist for.

Funny how that's supposedly "totally irrelevant"...
Even funnier is that in this Pirelli era, Vettel has gone out to test tires twice whenever he could. He's one of the only drivers who actually spent time at the Pirelli factory back in the early days. 🙂
They called everyone in order, but only Vettel showed up. Everyone else decided it was a waste of time...

And lo and behold, Vettel is one of the best tire managers in the entire Pirelli era. But sure, let's pretend it's all because his car was custom-built just for him. 😁

Also funny how miles ahead of everyone else were those three cars testing the new Pirellis...
Why on earth were Williams Racing and Force India suddenly so far ahead of the rest of the pack? I'm sure you haven't wondered about that...

mellowtiger83 said:Hamilton is also a hard worker and knows every aspect of the car; in fact, the experts constantly praise him for being an incredibly high-quality development driver with excellent feedback.

Set aside Hamilton's private life; just because he is under the media spotlight doesn't mean it signifies anything of substance.

The whole Senna debate has been discussed for ages. Even if he outperformed Alain Prost in the same car, let's move past point-scoring pedantry and such nonsense. Prost could only have stayed ahead if Ayrton Senna had given up, which happened in very few instances. And no, this isn't myth-making, at least not from my perspective, as I was a supporter of Prost.

Vettel as a tactician? Vettel being exceptionally clever? I could provide twenty or thirty examples to debunk that. Vettel is just as raw as Hamilton and isn't even slightly more calculating than him, nor is he any calmer.

Hamilton is basically most similar to Kimi Raikkonen, but "sort of" similar... extremely talented and fast, but he couldn't care less about anything else.
The big difference is that Hamilton isn't out there partying nearly as much as we know he does, though I wouldn't be surprised if he starts...

Forget all that talk about praising technical expertise and giving "feedback." That’s just PR fluff every driver uses...
The truth is what you see in the results, how they show up for testing, and stuff like that.
They're trying to claim that the real worker at Mercedes-Benz was actually Rosberg and that he was the one providing the feedback...
It’s pretty weird that Mercedes-Benz has started sliding since Rosberg left, especially when Hamilton is supposedly giving great feedback...

I have never read anything more foolish in my entire life, and I shall refrain from offering any further commentary!!

The end. As far as I am concerned, this debate is over, and frankly, I couldn't care less about the whole Hamilton vs. Vettel nonsense.

I am going to go watch NASCAR, IndyCar, and Supercars, in that specific order.

It will become obvious to you all very soon: Vettel cannot be a world champion if he has an equal car to Hamilton, nor can he be a champion against Hamilton if his car is even slightly faster.

There are only two scenarios where he could potentially win, and that is if Mercedes-Benz becomes unreliable—which simply isn't going to happen.

Therefore, the 2017 world champion is already a foregone conclusion!!

Look... while my love for the sport and my heart as a Ferrari fan would make me jump if the Scuderia took the win, I have to give Hamilton a bit more credit. His raw pace is undeniable, and frankly, I find myself trusting the Mercedes-Benz trajectory over Ferrari's progress this season. Then again, last year he was outclassed by Nico Rosberg in that exact same car, and I won't let anyone convince me that Rosberg is actually better than Sebastian Vettel. It seems Hamilton just isn't always that lethal when his mental game isn't at its absolute peak.

Here are the results from the off-season poll. I’m going to start a new one now, since it’s become blindingly obvious that this whole thing has boiled down to just two drivers.

I'm going with Vettel.

I also think if Vettel ends up winning the championship, Mercedes-Benz will absolutely crush Hamilton and kick him out of the team regardless of his contract just to bring in Fernando Alonso. I’d honestly bet ten bucks on it.

silverviper44 said:I'm going with Vettel.

I also think if Vettel ends up winning the championship, Mercedes-Benz will absolutely crush Hamilton and kick him out of the team regardless of his contract just to bring in Fernando Alonso. I’d honestly bet ten bucks on it.

Perhaps! But what happens if the situation is reversed 😒?

mellowtiger83 said:I have never read anything more foolish in my entire life, and I shall refrain from offering any further commentary!!

The end. As far as I am concerned, this debate is over, and frankly, I couldn't care less about the whole Hamilton vs. Vettel nonsense.

I am going to go watch NASCAR, IndyCar, and Supercars, in that specific order.

It will become obvious to you all very soon: Vettel cannot be a world champion if he has an equal car to Hamilton, nor can he be a champion against Hamilton if his car is even slightly faster.

There are only two scenarios where he could potentially win, and that is if Mercedes-Benz becomes unreliable—which simply isn't going to happen.

Therefore, the 2017 world champion is already a foregone conclusion!!

When did you even start watching Formula 1, yesterday?
Hello? Vettel has already secured titles against Hamilton in equal cars, or even when his car was slower than Hamilton's 🙂
. And no, he wasn't even the only one—Kimi Raikkonen has them, Nico Rosberg has them, and Felipe Massa almost had them too, though we all know how Timo Glock "helped" by parking it on the side...🙂
And get this: Vettel was actually ahead of Hamilton in that absolute McLaren mess during that famous Brazil 2008 race while driving an ultra-dominant Red Bull Racing car. And no, that wasn't the only time that season he beat Hamilton in that junk McLaren while in the dominant Red Bull Racing car. 🙂

Damn, if anyone has driven top-tier cars their entire career, it's Hamilton, and he squeezed those titles out with barely any breathing room 🤦
. And he did it even in the most dominant car of all time...
But sure, let's just forget that Nico Rosberg is an alien, and Felipe Massa is too 🙂
. Not to mention those seasons where Jenson Button was basically an alien and took runner-up, while poor Hamilton, in the exact same car, had to use superhuman strength just to finish fifth. 🙂

As for this season's title: if Ferrari keeps staying within striking distance of The Bear and The Bear doesn't pull away by more than half a second, I am absolutely certain it belongs to Vettel—mostly because Hamilton is on the other side. ☕
If it were Fernando Alonso or even Nico Rosberg in that car, I wouldn't be so sure, but right now, there's zero doubt. ☕

Of course, I'm expecting a massive outcry about "unreliable" Mercedes-Benz engines and Ferrari conspiracies regarding Hamilton. Gotta respect tradition, I guess. 😁

silverviper44 said:I'm going with Vettel.

I also think if Vettel ends up winning the championship, Mercedes-Benz will absolutely crush Hamilton and kick him out of the team regardless of his contract just to bring in Fernando Alonso. I’d honestly bet ten bucks on it.

It's about damn time...
If Ron Dennis had any sense, McLaren would've snatched titles in 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2012. They probably would've been fighting for it in 2011 too, if he hadn't brought Lewis Hamilton into the fold or actually told him how to behave...

Regardless of how much people love or hate Fernando Alonso, it's obvious he would've cruised to those 2007 and 2008 titles if he wasn't staring at Lewis Hamilton in the other garage while stuck with a total nobody like Heikki Kovalainen.
Given how fast the car was, they definitely should have taken the 2010 and 2012 titles. Honestly, Fernando Alonso wouldn't even have been in the title fight during those years if McLaren had actually put some decent drivers in the seats...

Heh, I was just waiting on Tibby. Had to stir the pot a little bit. Let's go.

You’d be better off buying me a beer at Prestige instead of running your mouth here, friend.