United States GP - Sep 26, 2010

It’s funny how all that "crybaby" talk has suddenly vanished... now that Ferrari has been the best car on the grid for the last two races, suddenly Alonso is the undisputed best driver out there... your objectivity is truly second to none... 😉

Hey there.

I'm actually a neighbor of Joža Bistranskog, so this is my own account. Joža is sitting right next to me now, basically dictating everything I type.

Since this doesn't really break any forum rules—it's not like I'm cloning an account, after all. It’s my personal account, and having someone sitting nearby telling me what to write isn't something the rules cover, I guess.

So, yeah, no banning is happening here.

Joža will probably jump into the discussion soon enough.

stormybadger8 said:And then suddenly, I'm the one being biased. 😕 ???????????

Alright, here’s the cold, hard truth about that Vettel-Webber mess in Turkey, and honestly, it kills me to even say it.

Sebastian Vettel seriously messed up in Turkey, and it’s going to cost him the title. But look, it wasn't just his fault—he isn't the sole reason for that crash, regardless of who was talking trash. He was barely ahead of Mark Webber, like, almost half a car length ahead, and Webber was shoving him the entire time. Vettel jerked to the side and his rear tire clipped the front of Webber's car. That part? Yeah, that's on him. But honestly, it's not even that massive of an error. Both guys are equally to blame here. The kid didn't exactly have a choice but to turn into the corner; he couldn't just keep going straight or literally stop dead on the track, for God's sake.

Sebastian Vettel’s massive, unforgivable mistake happened away from the track and away from the car. That whole thing where he was waving his hands around and gesturing like Mark Webber had lost his mind? That’s his biggest blunder of the season. It’s costing him more than anything else, and honestly, it’s the one thing I actually hold against him—and I'm pretty sure the entire team does, too.
Between that mistake and the way journalists, parts of his own team, and random people on the forums all jumped him, everyone’s acting like he’s the villain just because of the backlash. It’s like they’re blaming him for the hate he's taking rather than actually looking at how he was driving on track.

Look, regarding that Webber-Hamilton situation, Gil, there’s no debate for me. It's on Hamilton. He was in a spot almost identical to Vettel's, but just watch the footage. Hamilton is the one forcing Webber off the track. He left enough room for a bicycle to squeeze through, maybe, but definitely not a Formula 1 car. There was enough space on the right side for two semi-trucks to pass.🙄 Webber had it in his grasp.
And he just flies right off the track.
B. kočiti is acting like a total idiot.
Just take a normal line through the corner and slam right into Hamilton.

Mark Webber went with option C, and honestly, he made the right call. Webber didn't flinch for a single second—he didn't move an inch toward Lewis Hamilton. It was Hamilton who slammed right into him because he was the one forcing the issue, trying to squeeze Webber off the track. Webber just held his line.☕
Hamilton is totally on himself here. He’s the one who dragged both of them into this mess, so there isn't even a debate. We all know who's at fault, plain and simple. If the roles were reversed and it was Webber, he would have been slapped with a penalty mid-race or right after it finished. The fact that he wasn't tells you everything you need to know about why this happened.☕

Look at you being all "objective" all of a sudden.

Webber was stuck in Hamilton's blind spot, so the poor guy didn't see him coming. Honestly, Hamilton is the one who swerved hard left—and he went all the way. He’s lucky he didn't rip the steering wheel right off.🤣 So he slams into Webber and suddenly it's all Webber's fault in your book? Typical.

Webber was also in the blind spot, Joshua Newman2, exactly the same way. And how can you even be sure Vettel saw him? In this case, Vettel swerves right into Webber—so according to you, it's all Vettel's fault.

Here’s the difference between those two incidents:

Hamilton-Vettel:
1. Hamilton is the one pushing Webber off the track, while Vettel is the one being pushed out.🙏 2. Both hit Webber. The only real difference is one swerves left and the other swerves right, but if that's such a massive distinction to you, then whatever.

Webber:
1. In one instance, he's the guy pushing someone else off; in the other, he's the victim getting shoved wide.
2. In both cases, he just hammers the throttle, holds his line, and refuses to budge an inch.

So basically, in your book, every racing incident has one single culprit: the guy being pushed off. Meanwhile, the stubborn mule doing the pushing won't back down or head to the pub to grab a beer. Shameful.🙏 🤣



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAAD_ZP1TU

Please, do me a favor and explain exactly how Hamilton isn't at fault while Webber is. I'm dying to know so I can learn how to be just as "super objective" as you.🙏

Look, man, you seem a little worked up. 🤷
Let's take it easy; we don't always have to see eye-to-eye on Formula 1, but on a personal level, there’s plenty of mutual respect here. 🙏

Regarding the Vettel-Webber incident, I honestly didn't see anyone watching the race besides you and Helmut Marko blaming Webber for it. Fine, you eventually softened your stance and started splitting the blame between them both—which is actually quite objective and something most neutral fans would agree with—but if we had to pin the fault on just one driver (if it wasn't a perfect 50-50 split, say 60-40 or something else), I believe most viewers (and from what I read in the aftermath, most experts too) felt more of the blame rested with Vettel. He turned into Webber because he realized the guy wasn't going to budge like Felipe Massa or Jenson Button would.

The fact that he later went off on a tangent, pointing fingers and calling his own teammate a lunatic, wasn't his only mistake that day. Even if he and Webber share the responsibility for the collision, a significant portion still lands on Vettel, but that outburst definitely trashed his reputation. If that's what you meant, I completely agree. Before that, Vettel was seen by the public as this charming, intelligent young talent who got along famously with Bernie (remember that joint interview where they were just praising each other?) and could even win in a Toro Rosso. After that, something snapped, and he developed this image of a spoiled kid throwing a tantrum when someone takes his toy away. Still, he has at least another decade of racing ahead of him; there's plenty of time to win back his old fans and pick up a whole new crowd.

As for this recent incident, it's much less clear to me personally. There wasn't much replay footage available, so I've only watched the whole thing a couple of times (I haven't checked YouTube yet, but I will shortly), but my gut feeling is that Webber was being a stubborn mule who refused to give an inch (much like Vettel in Turkey or Hamilton in Monza). I admit, it's just an impression, as the sequence of events isn't entirely crystal clear to me.

I also recognize the possibility that Webber might not be at fault. 🙏 Especially considering he collided with Hamilton, who, as stormyviper11 correctly pointed out earlier, is building a reputation for dirty driving similar to Schumacher's. 🤷

@Paul Collins13
Tell Joža that Joshua Newman sends his regards and wishes him a speedy return. 👍
And yeah, tell him my mother's advice suggests that writing posts—even indirectly, if they are being dictated to you—could result in a very long ban.

stormyviper11 said:Fernando Alonso is absolutely on fire right now. He’s finally got his team dialed in and his head straight, and honestly, anything short of him taking the title would be a massive shock. No matter how much people try to twist the math, he’s been the most consistent driver out there over the last five or six seasons. It's just crazy how a mix of weird luck and that classic "Schumacher-style" attitude toward team management caused him to blow his chance at chasing down those legendary records... First, he ran into a wall with McLaren where it was impossible to win, then he shook up the paddock's trust so much that he ended up stuck in a mid-field team for two years. But now that they've moved past the tuning phase? Man, it's not even a stretch to think we could see a streak of titles and pure dominance until the next big rule change hits.

I wouldn't feel too bad if Mark Webber snatched the title, though. It would basically just be the next logical step in this downward spiral of world champion quality: Michael Schumacher - Fernando Alonso - Kimi Raikkonen - Lewis Hamilton - Jenson Button - Mark Webber. They should all just get together and head off to see the Wizard of Oz.
Michael Schumacher could ask for some basic decency and actual fair play.
Fernando Alonso could ask for some respect for his own crew and the rest of the world, for crying out loud.
Kimi Raikkonen could ask for some work ethic and a reason to actually care.
Lewis Hamilton could ask for some air conditioning to cool his head down.
Jenson Button could ask for a heart and maybe a little bit of pace.
Mark Webber could ask for a DNA transplant to move some grit from his ego into the rest of his body.

Vettel isn't quite there yet, and Lewis Hamilton is still maturing, even if Lewis managed to stumble into that one title. I still think age and experience are going to carry the day here. I expect both of them to crack under pressure eventually, and I'm just waiting for Webber to finally screw up because of some stupid mess he started or got caught up in. So, it really comes down to Alonso and Button—the only two guys I actually trust to do their jobs professionally without making massive mistakes. And let's be real, Alonso is faster, has the better car, and more points...

Joža's calling the shots, so I'm just here typing. Don't go getting mad at me if I mess something up by accident, okay?

say Joža:

You really let me down there. Honestly, you've fallen pretty low in my eyes—maybe even basement level low. But whatever, I won't make this personal anymore, because deep down, I still respect you... assuming you actually read anything.

Look, if you think about it, today's drivers don't mess around with death nearly as much. They don't have grease under their fingernails from tinkering with engines anymore, and they aren't accidentally shifting into neutral mid-race, but I guess they're still more advanced than the guys from back in the day. Today's drivers are total idiots, and honestly, idiots are at their best when it comes to being idiots—well, only when it’s specifically about their own idiocy. But hey, that's what we're talking about here, right?

There’s a big difference between being a great driver and just being a solid human being. Take A. J. Foyt, for example. He won his race on Sunday, then spent Monday dropping his grandson off at kindergarten. By Monday afternoon, he was already teaching the kid how to use a screwdriver and a wrench. On Tuesday, he was back in the garage working on his NASCAR build, and by Wednesday, he was out on the tractor fixing the hydraulics. Then on Thursday, he was giving George Snider some pointers on how to actually understand racing mechanics, and by Friday, he was already headed out to Milwaukee. That was just A. J. Foyt for you.

Sebastian Vettel wins the race on Sunday, then spends all Monday glued to the simulator to make up for lost testing time. Tuesday? Back in the simulator. Wednesday, Thursday—you get the idea, he’s basically living in that sim. Then he finally heads home, everything's all set and taken care of, gets some fresh clothes, catches some sleep, and just repeats the whole cycle back at Red Bull Racing. Just life as it goes, I guess.

I guess Sebastian Vettel is technically a better driver than A. J. Foyt. I mean, obviously, since his entire life has been centered around driving race cars. But honestly? Sebastian Vettel is just a total jerk. Foyt was a real man, you know? That’s just how it is. You can see that whole "idiot" vibe with modern drivers best when you look at Michael Schumacher. Even the Regenmeister 1.02 seemed like a lost soul after leaving Formula 1, like he was totally adrift and had no idea what to do with himself. Well, I guess it makes sense since he didn't really know how to do anything besides lap a track. It doesn't matter how much money you have if you don't even know how to exist on your own. You feel me?

So, we kind of end up at this conclusion where Button—who’s basically got that smooth, cerebral style—is actually better than Prost. It feels like just a simple evolution of talent. I mean, how can you even claim he lacks raw speed? If that's the case, what was Prost actually missing? That's just how these drivers work. Button is like Prost 1.02, whereas some guy driving a Toro Rosso will probably be Prost 1.03. I guess every new generation just produces better drivers.

Alonso was already crushing it in F3000 back in '99 when he was only 19—that's basically the F1 feeder series. It makes sense, though. These drivers today start in karting and just get sucked into this endless loop of perfecting their craft. It lasts until the end of their careers, or at least until they hit their mid-career slump in F1 when the motivation and discipline start to slip. Maybe like Kimi Raikkonen.

How can you even call Kimi undisciplined? I mean, getting into Formula 1 at 21 with Peter Sauber's team while Max Mosley is breathing down your neck trying to snatch your super license... could any driver really afford to be undisciplined under those conditions? Not a chance. Kimi used to be a super disciplined driver. Maybe until about 2006—then fame just went to his head and things started sliding. But that doesn't take away from his 2007 title, which honestly feels like he’s just collecting on the one he missed out on in 2003. That's my take.

It’s not a drop in driving skill, it’s more like a drop in character. I guess today's drivers are all just corporate puppets—totally hollow inside—but maybe that's what we're talking about here. You said Mark Webber lacks guts, but stormyviper11, did you know Webber is actually the only driver who truly looks out for others? He just organized a fundraiser for that poor guy who had the accident at Brands Hatch. Webber cares about his peers, kind of like how Stewart used to, though back then Stewart was probably more focused on looking after widows than the drivers themselves. Webber is basically Stewart 1.03.

What kind of "drop in quality" are you even talking about? What about Niki Lauda—a driver you admitted didn't have raw talent and had to make up for it with sheer grit? And yet you say Jenson Button lacks pace. Well, what was Lauda missing in '84 if not pace? Titles aren't won on pure speed alone, I thought you knew that, stormyviper11. If Button wins his title in 2010, it’ll definitely be way stronger than Lauda’s '84 run. Lauda had a dominant car and maybe one rival. Button is sitting in the third fastest car with four people to beat. Oh boy, stormyviper11.

Who else were you pointing fingers at? Oh yeah, Lewis Hamilton? Hamilton, much like his predecessor Senna, is just a headless gambler, a Regenmeister 1.01. But then again, Hamilton is still a better driver, Senna 1.02—that win at Spa was incredible.
Besides, if this is a decline in quality, which drivers *should* have won titles so the list of champions doesn't look like a downward slide? Maybe DC from 2000-2004? Or Montoya? Or Kimi—who’s already been labeled a decline in quality.
What about Fisichella or Kimi in 2005? Michael Schumacher in 2006? Alonso in 2007? Hamilton is also labeled a decline in quality too. Then there's Massa in 2008—give me a break, "Federvugla" world champion? And Vettel in 2009?

If that's the case, then the whole field is questionable. And not just today's guys, the entire history of the sport becomes suspect. Everything from now back to the original Regenmeister Rudolf Caracciola or the Nebelmeister Rosemeyer. Or is Caracciola the Nebelmeister and Rosemeyer the Regenmeister? Someone local tell me, since they'd know.

ruggedfox28 said:..but isn't that exactly what makes racing great? Isn't that the true spirit of Formula 1, back before the money, the marketing, and the big teams started dictating how drivers should drive—let alone how they should behave on track?

I actually prefer Lewis Hamilton because he’s got that relentless drive to be the best. He goes after it without making any compromises, even if he ends up looking like an idiot most of the time... he doesn't give a damn about team orders or corporate priorities... it's just pure racing, and whoever has more talent, luck, or sheer balls ends up on top...

People around here on the forums always say, "without Hemić and all his crazy stunts, racing would be as boring as watching paint dry"... 😉

..yeah, people call him impulsive, reckless, whatever... but that's exactly why I like him. He doesn't bow down to authority (like the Alonso-McLaren situation) and he'll fight for himself any way he can...

..but he didn't say after Monza that he should just play nice during the final races to grab whatever points are left. His heart couldn't take it when he saw a chance to muscle past a powerhouse like Mark Webber at the Singapore GP..that's my point right there—he drives with his heart, not with a paycheck or a team manager breathing down his neck... 😉

..I wouldn't be surprised if we see him putting on a massive show for the rest of the season. Since he's basically tanked his championship chances anyway, he might just start driving super risky (which would be fun to watch) since he's got nothing left to lose...

So, Lewis Hamilton is basically just a clown here for our entertainment. Honestly, it’s the truth. There's no other way to put it.

ruggedfox28 said:..but isn't that exactly what makes racing great? Isn't that the true spirit of Formula 1, back before the money, the marketing, and the big teams started dictating how drivers should drive—let alone how they should behave on track?

I actually prefer Lewis Hamilton because he’s got that relentless drive to be the best. He goes after it without making any compromises, even if he ends up looking like an idiot most of the time... he doesn't give a damn about team orders or corporate priorities... it's just pure racing, and whoever has more talent, luck, or sheer balls ends up on top...

People around here on the forums always say, "without Hemić and all his crazy stunts, racing would be as boring as watching paint dry"... 😉

..yeah, people call him impulsive, reckless, whatever... but that's exactly why I like him. He doesn't bow down to authority (like the Alonso-McLaren situation) and he'll fight for himself any way he can...

..but he didn't say after Monza that he should just play nice during the final races to grab whatever points are left. His heart couldn't take it when he saw a chance to muscle past a powerhouse like Mark Webber at the Singapore GP..that's my point right there—he drives with his heart, not with a paycheck or a team manager breathing down his neck... 😉

..I wouldn't be surprised if we see him putting on a massive show for the rest of the season. Since he's basically tanked his championship chances anyway, he might just start driving super risky (which would be fun to watch) since he's got nothing left to lose...

That's a wonderful example you've picked. 😁

Hamilton is just a faster, more sensitive version of Juan Pablo Montoya. 😁

I'm just a much more broken, unscrupulous, and dishonest version of Juan Pablo Montoya.

P.S. — banned the clone, and added an extension to the original handle. ☕

Jason Campbell70 said:So, Lewis Hamilton is basically just a clown here for our entertainment. Honestly, it’s the truth. There's no other way to put it.

That's a wonderful example you've picked. 😁

Hamilton is just a faster, more sensitive version of Juan Pablo Montoya. 😁

I'm just a much more broken, unscrupulous, and dishonest version of Juan Pablo Montoya.

P.S. — banned the clone, and added an extension to the original handle. ☕

Stop talking about bans and clones.

Like I said at the start, I'm just a neighbor of Joža Bistranskog. Joža came over to my place for a drink and he's basically telling me what to write. I don't think that breaks any rules, especially not forum rules.

There's really no issue with cloning here; this is my own account and it's got nothing to do with him. What he does at my house or what we chat about or what he suggests I write... well, you guys can't really do anything about that.

A ban would be totally unjustified, I guess.

stormybadger8 said:And then suddenly, I'm the one being biased. 😕 ???????????

Alright, here’s the cold, hard truth about that Vettel-Webber mess in Turkey, and honestly, it kills me to even say it.

Sebastian Vettel seriously messed up in Turkey, and it’s going to cost him the title. But look, it wasn't just his fault—he isn't the sole reason for that crash, regardless of who was talking trash. He was barely ahead of Mark Webber, like, almost half a car length ahead, and Webber was shoving him the entire time. Vettel jerked to the side and his rear tire clipped the front of Webber's car. That part? Yeah, that's on him. But honestly, it's not even that massive of an error. Both guys are equally to blame here. The kid didn't exactly have a choice but to turn into the corner; he couldn't just keep going straight or literally stop dead on the track, for God's sake.

Sebastian Vettel’s massive, unforgivable mistake happened away from the track and away from the car. That whole thing where he was waving his hands around and gesturing like Mark Webber had lost his mind? That’s his biggest blunder of the season. It’s costing him more than anything else, and honestly, it’s the one thing I actually hold against him—and I'm pretty sure the entire team does, too.
Between that mistake and the way journalists, parts of his own team, and random people on the forums all jumped him, everyone’s acting like he’s the villain just because of the backlash. It’s like they’re blaming him for the hate he's taking rather than actually looking at how he was driving on track.

Look, regarding that Webber-Hamilton situation, Gil, there’s no debate for me. It's on Hamilton. He was in a spot almost identical to Vettel's, but just watch the footage. Hamilton is the one forcing Webber off the track. He left enough room for a bicycle to squeeze through, maybe, but definitely not a Formula 1 car. There was enough space on the right side for two semi-trucks to pass.🙄 Webber had it in his grasp.
And he just flies right off the track.
B. kočiti is acting like a total idiot.
Just take a normal line through the corner and slam right into Hamilton.

Mark Webber went with option C, and honestly, he made the right call. Webber didn't flinch for a single second—he didn't move an inch toward Lewis Hamilton. It was Hamilton who slammed right into him because he was the one forcing the issue, trying to squeeze Webber off the track. Webber just held his line.☕
Hamilton is totally on himself here. He’s the one who dragged both of them into this mess, so there isn't even a debate. We all know who's at fault, plain and simple. If the roles were reversed and it was Webber, he would have been slapped with a penalty mid-race or right after it finished. The fact that he wasn't tells you everything you need to know about why this happened.☕

Look at you being all "objective" all of a sudden.

Webber was stuck in Hamilton's blind spot, so the poor guy didn't see him coming. Honestly, Hamilton is the one who swerved hard left—and he went all the way. He’s lucky he didn't rip the steering wheel right off.🤣 So he slams into Webber and suddenly it's all Webber's fault in your book? Typical.

Webber was also in the blind spot, Joshua Newman2, exactly the same way. And how can you even be sure Vettel saw him? In this case, Vettel swerves right into Webber—so according to you, it's all Vettel's fault.

Here’s the difference between those two incidents:

Hamilton-Vettel:
1. Hamilton is the one pushing Webber off the track, while Vettel is the one being pushed out.🙏 2. Both hit Webber. The only real difference is one swerves left and the other swerves right, but if that's such a massive distinction to you, then whatever.

Webber:
1. In one instance, he's the guy pushing someone else off; in the other, he's the victim getting shoved wide.
2. In both cases, he just hammers the throttle, holds his line, and refuses to budge an inch.

So basically, in your book, every racing incident has one single culprit: the guy being pushed off. Meanwhile, the stubborn mule doing the pushing won't back down or head to the pub to grab a beer. Shameful.🙏 🤣



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAAD_ZP1TU

Please, do me a favor and explain exactly how Hamilton isn't at fault while Webber is. I'm dying to know so I can learn how to be just as "super objective" as you.🙏

Could a bike make it through? 😕
If you watch the footage, Mark Webber is basically on one wheel on the curb, and he just hits the turn so fast that he nudges Hamilton—you can actually see it on Webber's onboard camera... 🤷

I guess I’m three times more careful when I’m playing on a public server and someone tries to overtake me (where there's no championship and everyone is just racing like a swarm of headless flies) than Webber was. 😛

crimsonstag84 said:Could a bike make it through? 😕
If you watch the footage, Mark Webber is basically on one wheel on the curb, and he just hits the turn so fast that he nudges Hamilton—you can actually see it on Webber's onboard camera... 🤷

I guess I’m three times more careful when I’m playing on a public server and someone tries to overtake me (where there's no championship and everyone is just racing like a swarm of headless flies) than Webber was. 😛

Hamilton actually hit him, not the other way around... like I mentioned before, he was trying to close the door without realizing exactly who he was trying to shut out ☕. If it had been anyone else, they probably would have backed off and let Lewis Hamilton through (well, maybe not if it were Grandpa 😁!). It’s just baffling to me why Hamilton and the rest of the field don't realize this might be Webber's absolute last shot at a title. He’s going to be fighting much more desperately, harder, and sharper than the guys who still have time to become champions or have already been there 🤷. Where others might ease off the throttle, he won't... it's pure psychology
.

nimblesurfer17 said:Hamilton actually hit him, not the other way around... like I mentioned before, he was trying to close the door without realizing exactly who he was trying to shut out ☕. If it had been anyone else, they probably would have backed off and let Lewis Hamilton through (well, maybe not if it were Grandpa 😁!). It’s just baffling to me why Hamilton and the rest of the field don't realize this might be Webber's absolute last shot at a title. He’s going to be fighting much more desperately, harder, and sharper than the guys who still have time to become champions or have already been there 🤷. Where others might ease off the throttle, he won't... it's pure psychology
.

thank God 🙏🙏🙏

finally, someone who actually knows what they're talking about 👍

that's exactly it, Hamilton is the one at fault☕

people were trying to feed me lines like "Why shouldn't Webber be wary of a spoiled Sebastian Vettel," who happens to be his teammate, while Hamilton should just move out of the way because he's the "golden boy." Truly brilliant philosophy right there.🤦

nimblesurfer17 said:Hamilton actually hit him, not the other way around... like I mentioned before, he was trying to close the door without realizing exactly who he was trying to shut out ☕. If it had been anyone else, they probably would have backed off and let Lewis Hamilton through (well, maybe not if it were Grandpa 😁!). It’s just baffling to me why Hamilton and the rest of the field don't realize this might be Webber's absolute last shot at a title. He’s going to be fighting much more desperately, harder, and sharper than the guys who still have time to become champions or have already been there 🤷. Where others might ease off the throttle, he won't... it's pure psychology
.

So, basically, Hamilton is the one to blame because Webber is just inherently "crazy"—especially right now while leading the championship—and keeps running headfirst into walls, so Lewis should've just known and let him by? 😕 First off, I think we're labeling Webber as a "crazy" driver in these on-track duels way too fast. Second, we're acting like it's totally normal (😕) and that everyone else should just adjust their behavior to accommodate that. In my book, that logic works if we're talking about how much damage Lewis took by not letting Webber past, but when we're debating who's actually at fault for the crash? Hell no. Seriously, if we follow that line of thinking, we might as well just label him unpredictable and ban him from racing entirely, otherwise he's eventually going to kill someone on the track. 🤷

Quote:>

Keith Rodriguez27 says: So, basically, Hamilton is at fault because Webber is just "crazy" by nature—especially since he's leading the championship right now—and decides to charge head-first into a wall, which means Lewis should have known better and just let him through? 😕 First off, I think we're way too quick to label Webber as some "madman" driver during on-track duels. Second, that logic assumes his behavior is somehow normal (😕) and that every other driver should just adapt to it. In my book, that logic works if we're talking about how much damage Lewis took by letting Webber past, but when we're debating who actually caused the crash? Not a chance. Seriously, at this rate, we might as well just declare him unpredictable and ban him from racing entirely before he actually kills someone on the track. 🤷>

because 😕

I honestly think you guys and even Joshua Newman27 are being insanely unrealistic. What's your problem? Should everyone just brake and wiggle out of the racing line like Jenson Button whenever Hamilton shows up to push someone around? 🙄>

Look at what Hamilton is doing in that clip. He dives into the corner like a maniac, trying to force his way in. What was Webber supposed to do? Just slam on the brakes or swerve off the track? What is wrong with you people? 😕>

I don't get why you're all coming for me. This isn't even a fair argument. 😵>

I'm standing up for Webber here 🤦 ,and it's honestly unbelievable. 🤣>

stormybadger8 said:Quote:>

Keith Rodriguez27 says: So, basically, Hamilton is at fault because Webber is just "crazy" by nature—especially since he's leading the championship right now—and decides to charge head-first into a wall, which means Lewis should have known better and just let him through? 😕 First off, I think we're way too quick to label Webber as some "madman" driver during on-track duels. Second, that logic assumes his behavior is somehow normal (😕) and that every other driver should just adapt to it. In my book, that logic works if we're talking about how much damage Lewis took by letting Webber past, but when we're debating who actually caused the crash? Not a chance. Seriously, at this rate, we might as well just declare him unpredictable and ban him from racing entirely before he actually kills someone on the track. 🤷>

because 😕

I honestly think you guys and even Joshua Newman27 are being insanely unrealistic. What's your problem? Should everyone just brake and wiggle out of the racing line like Jenson Button whenever Hamilton shows up to push someone around? 🙄>

Look at what Hamilton is doing in that clip. He dives into the corner like a maniac, trying to force his way in. What was Webber supposed to do? Just slam on the brakes or swerve off the track? What is wrong with you people? 😕>

I don't get why you're all coming for me. This isn't even a fair argument. 😵>

I'm standing up for Webber here 🤦 ,and it's honestly unbelievable. 🤣>

Did you even bother reading what I wrote above? 😁
Aside from the fact that I’m willing to admit my stance on this specific incident isn't set in stone, the way you're lecturing me about being "unrealistic" is nothing short of tragicomic.

stormybadger8 say Joža:
Why? 😕

Honestly, guys, you and Joshua Newman2 are being so incredibly delusional that it’s actually getting a little ridiculous.

So, here’s the bottom line: if you don't see things the way I do, you're living in a fantasy land. When is this qualifying madness finally going to end?

stormybadger8 said:Quote:>

Keith Rodriguez27 says: So, basically, Hamilton is at fault because Webber is just "crazy" by nature—especially since he's leading the championship right now—and decides to charge head-first into a wall, which means Lewis should have known better and just let him through? 😕 First off, I think we're way too quick to label Webber as some "madman" driver during on-track duels. Second, that logic assumes his behavior is somehow normal (😕) and that every other driver should just adapt to it. In my book, that logic works if we're talking about how much damage Lewis took by letting Webber past, but when we're debating who actually caused the crash? Not a chance. Seriously, at this rate, we might as well just declare him unpredictable and ban him from racing entirely before he actually kills someone on the track. 🤷>

because 😕

I honestly think you guys and even Joshua Newman27 are being insanely unrealistic. What's your problem? Should everyone just brake and wiggle out of the racing line like Jenson Button whenever Hamilton shows up to push someone around? 🙄>

Look at what Hamilton is doing in that clip. He dives into the corner like a maniac, trying to force his way in. What was Webber supposed to do? Just slam on the brakes or swerve off the track? What is wrong with you people? 😕>

I don't get why you're all coming for me. This isn't even a fair argument. 😵>

I'm standing up for Webber here 🤦 ,and it's honestly unbelievable. 🤣>

You're overhyping TBF. It's not like Lewis is actually as dim-witted as you're making him out to be.
That wasn't some forced shutdown. As much as I love seeing a rival drop points, I'm genuinely gutted that we missed out on such a legendary overtake.
Look, you’ve got a car that's clearly faster than the championship leader, and you're looking at an overtake on the outside. That's exactly what Webber wouldn't allow. Sure, Lewis didn't dive into the corner too aggressively, though he probably could have squeezed just a tiny bit more to the right. It wouldn't have mattered—he was faster in that moment, plain and simple. If you even want to call it a mistake, that's his only one. You can't pin this on anyone else.

Keith Rodriguez27 said:So, basically, Hamilton is the one to blame because Webber is just inherently "crazy"—especially right now while leading the championship—and keeps running headfirst into walls, so Lewis should've just known and let him by? 😕 First off, I think we're labeling Webber as a "crazy" driver in these on-track duels way too fast. Second, we're acting like it's totally normal (😕) and that everyone else should just adjust their behavior to accommodate that. In my book, that logic works if we're talking about how much damage Lewis took by not letting Webber past, but when we're debating who's actually at fault for the crash? Hell no. Seriously, if we follow that line of thinking, we might as well just label him unpredictable and ban him from racing entirely, otherwise he's eventually going to kill someone on the track. 🤷

No, Hamilton is to blame because he didn't leave enough room in the corner for Webber to make the pass... though, I am curious, did Hamilton say anything after the race was over? 🤷
And yeah, you really have to account for the "mental state" and the sheer personality of the drivers you're battling against... that's honestly one of the most critical factors. It's just not the same experience when you're squaring off against Jenson Button or Felipe Massa versus facing off against Grandpa or Webber. Lewis really should have picked up on those personality traits by now—he would have realized that this move might fly with most of the current Formula 1 grid, but certainly not with Webber, especially not with him in his current position... it's like that old saying, "don't pick a fight with a bull." 😁 The real crux of this whole thing is that Webber isn't "crazy" in the sense that he's pulling stunts like Schumacher against Jacques Villeneuve; rather, he's "crazy" because he refuses to play it safe or back down where other drivers might flinch when faced with the presence of someone like Hamilton, Alonso, or Sebastian Vettel.

Rebecca Fox4 said:It’s funny how all that "crybaby" talk has suddenly vanished... now that Ferrari has been the best car on the grid for the last two races, suddenly Alonso is the undisputed best driver out there... your objectivity is truly second to none... 😉

Don't give me these vague generalizations. If you've got names, use them.
Let's be real, I highly doubt anyone in this thread actually changed their mind about Alonso at any point during this season.

nimblesurfer17 As specified by:
No, Hamilton is the one to blame here. He didn't leave enough room in the corner for Webber to make his move. It’s that simple. Anyway, does anyone know if Hamilton actually said anything about it after the race? 🤷

This is basically everything that matters from the McLaren side (Michael Witmarsh):

Look, I don't think Lewis did anything wrong here. I’m really not interested in playing the blame game, but honestly? That was a solid move. When you go for an overtake, there's always going to be some level of risk if the other driver refuses to give you any breathing room. But this wasn't some desperate, late-braking lunging stunt. He pulled ahead on the straight and he was already in front before he even hit the corner.

He figured he could hold his line, you know? He left some room for Mark, but I think Mark committed way too late and just couldn't make the inside pass work. Instead, he slammed into Lewis. Honestly, Mark got incredibly lucky to escape any real trouble, while Lewis just had a run of bad luck. There’s zero blame on Lewis for how things went down today.

If you check the car positions heading into that turn and compare it to what went down at Monza, you could basically flip Lewis's position on its head. Last time around, everyone jumped on him, but we can't pin it on him this time. At the end of the day, they're both just professional racing drivers.

If he’d actually attempted to dive down the inside by braking late just to force an overtake, we’d have every right to be disappointed in him.Look, the bottom line is he made the move. He was already ahead when they hit that corner, which means he earned the right to pick his line. Usually, if you're the one trailing him, you just have to deal with it and accept the situation..

"He had the opening, but he didn't commit to it. He hesitated, missed his chance, and ended up wrecking the car. Typical.Look, I don't see much point in throwing Mark under the bus. Did Lewis mess up his line or his execution? In my book, he didn't.

At the end, Michael Witmarsh says blaming Webber is pointless. Sure. As if that changes anything. Typical.
So, it's pretty obvious who they're pointing the finger at.

nimblesurfer17 said:No, Hamilton is to blame because he didn't leave enough room in the corner for Webber to make the pass... though, I am curious, did Hamilton say anything after the race was over? 🤷
And yeah, you really have to account for the "mental state" and the sheer personality of the drivers you're battling against... that's honestly one of the most critical factors. It's just not the same experience when you're squaring off against Jenson Button or Felipe Massa versus facing off against Grandpa or Webber. Lewis really should have picked up on those personality traits by now—he would have realized that this move might fly with most of the current Formula 1 grid, but certainly not with Webber, especially not with him in his current position... it's like that old saying, "don't pick a fight with a bull." 😁 The real crux of this whole thing is that Webber isn't "crazy" in the sense that he's pulling stunts like Schumacher against Jacques Villeneuve; rather, he's "crazy" because he refuses to play it safe or back down where other drivers might flinch when faced with the presence of someone like Hamilton, Alonso, or Sebastian Vettel.

http://www.formula1.com/news/intervi...0/9/11325.html

Rebecca Fox4 said:It’s funny how all that "crybaby" talk has suddenly vanished... now that Ferrari has been the best car on the grid for the last two races, suddenly Alonso is the undisputed best driver out there... your objectivity is truly second to none... 😉

I guess you could say Fernando Alonso has been the best driver on the grid for the last five years—maybe.

stormybadger8 said:Quote:>

Keith Rodriguez27 says: So, basically, Hamilton is at fault because Webber is just "crazy" by nature—especially since he's leading the championship right now—and decides to charge head-first into a wall, which means Lewis should have known better and just let him through? 😕 First off, I think we're way too quick to label Webber as some "madman" driver during on-track duels. Second, that logic assumes his behavior is somehow normal (😕) and that every other driver should just adapt to it. In my book, that logic works if we're talking about how much damage Lewis took by letting Webber past, but when we're debating who actually caused the crash? Not a chance. Seriously, at this rate, we might as well just declare him unpredictable and ban him from racing entirely before he actually kills someone on the track. 🤷>

because 😕

I honestly think you guys and even Joshua Newman27 are being insanely unrealistic. What's your problem? Should everyone just brake and wiggle out of the racing line like Jenson Button whenever Hamilton shows up to push someone around? 🙄>

Look at what Hamilton is doing in that clip. He dives into the corner like a maniac, trying to force his way in. What was Webber supposed to do? Just slam on the brakes or swerve off the track? What is wrong with you people? 😕>

I don't get why you're all coming for me. This isn't even a fair argument. 😵>

I'm standing up for Webber here 🤦 ,and it's honestly unbelievable. 🤣>

If you ask me, it was just a racing incident—maybe.
If I had to point a finger at someone—maybe—it would be Mark Webber.

Rebecca Fox4 said:It’s funny how all that "crybaby" talk has suddenly vanished... now that Ferrari has been the best car on the grid for the last two races, suddenly Alonso is the undisputed best driver out there... your objectivity is truly second to none... 😉

God, Kimi Räikkönen...
I grew up rooting for Fernando Alonso during his glory days at Renault, but my loyalty doesn't blind me to reality. I’d tell you the same thing now as I would have years ago: that brilliant driver is an absolute crybaby. Those two traits aren't mutually exclusive. It’s like Nikola Karabatić—just because someone is a master manipulator and a total fake doesn't mean they aren't a world-class athlete. Alonso is simply both.