Troy

lepa.pametna@neudata said:"It actually happened" WHERE?

Wow. It’s incredible how in just a few hours, a serious discussion about Troy turned into silentpilot6 rambling about being a "victim" of some party (his blatant admission regarding his preference for a ménage à trois! 😲), Kiki's obsession with the sexual orientation of one of the film's main protagonists, and Richard Hernandez13's nostalgia for Santa Claus. One has to wonder if the ancient Greeks packed an "intergalactic version" of the Trojan War into their stories long before they eventually reached the unfortunate Homer after four or five centuries! 🙄

On the other hand, some archaeologists who conducted excavations at the site believed to be the location of Troy have determined that there is not a single piece of concrete evidence that the events described by the aforementioned Homer actually took place!

Therefore...

#

👍
Exactly.
Man, I'm only just now thinking about what probably went down in Troy.
It was likely just 15 or 20 guys gathering to raid a village because a guy from a rival settlement married one of their best women. And you can't let that slide! 😠 🙂 Plus, she had been involved with the main woman of the village before moving on to someone else. You can't have that!
So they spent a week or two fighting with sticks and hoes.
Then someone remembered to bring horses—so the brave guys from Village G managed to jump over the reed fence of Village T while riding them.
And that was really it.
Then the stories started spreading through word of mouth, fueled by the wild imaginations of generations of drunk, talkative villagers, until it finally reached the pen of the famous lover of male physiques—Homer. And thus, the legend was born. 👍

Ilivamga, let's get back to the point.

Troy—in my humble opinion, this movie is outstanding. Brad Pitt absolutely blew me away with that slightly manic 'Brad Pitt of The Seven & 12 Monkeys' energy he brings to such an objectively eccentric character (after all, Achilles is a semi-supernatural being, and the film does a great job showing just how petty those ancient gods actually are). I was also so impressed by the lack of "lens flare" style songwriting, storyboarding, or directing. To me, the film feels incredibly "realistic"—setting aside any questionable historical accuracy, of course. There aren't any impossible Matrix-style stunts; instead, you see squads fighting the gritty way, with sticks, chains, and blunt force. You can practically feel them sweating and grunting under that heavy armor. The heroes are covered in scars and grit. It's visceral!

The characterization of Agamemnon is also top-notch. Even though he comes across as a total brute and a primitive in my eyes, he is exactly the kind of warrior king who would successfully unite the various kingdoms through sheer iron-fisted willpower.

The absolute moral compass of the film is Hector, just as he is in the original epic, and Eric Bana delivers a performance that is both professional and deeply soulful, IMO. Bloom, on the other hand, once again plays what is becoming his trademark role—that somewhat dainty, effeminate type with a bow and arrow. We might not all love that interpretation, but that is simply how Paris of Troy was conceived.

My personal favorites? Definitely Eric Bana as Hector, and of course, mostly because I find Sean Bean as Odysseus to be an incredibly charming actor. It’s such a shame they didn't give his character more screen time! However, it makes me hopeful that we might see a high-quality adaptation of the Odyssey sometime soon.

Now, some of the costume choices are historically inaccurate (for instance, I immediately noticed the fuller, or the groove in the swords), but the overall shape, "feel," and the general level of technology shown in the film are perfectly fine. You have to remember that a film needs a certain dose of epic scale, so it wasn't unexpected that some things were oversized (like the gates or the walls of Troy).

Of course, the film isn't entirely faithful to the source material, but in my view, the script adjustments work well within the cinematic narrative. I found the film extremely likable precisely because I didn't experience it as some sort of high-fantasy epic like Lord of the Rings, but rather as a very "faithful"—subjectively speaking, of course, since any Hollywood production will have its flaws if you analyze it closely—semi-historical epic.

Alongside Gladiator, this is one of my favorites. I truly believe it will help reignite and reinvent the historical spectacle genre, and I'll be among the first in line to cheer when these types of movies return to the big screen!

Kiki said:Hector's wife is a Lesbian.
She lives with Fion Shaw. Right in my neighborhood.

Sorry Kiki, but I guess who really cares if the actress is a Lesbian?

Nancy Kim2 said:Ilivamga, let's get back to the topic.

Troy—I think the movie is excellent, honestly. Brad Pitt blew me away with that slightly manic 'Brad Pitt of The Seven & 12 Monkeys' type of characterization; he plays someone who is objectively a bit strange (but then again, Achilles is basically a semi-supernatural being, and it’s good to see how messed up those ancient gods actually were). I really appreciated the lack of 'lens flare' style songwriting, storyboarding, or directing because, in my opinion, the film feels incredibly 'realistic' (setting aside any questions about the historical accuracy of the plot). There aren't any impossible Matrix-style stunts; the squad just fights with spears, shields, and whatever else they can grab, and you can actually see them sweating and grunting under all that heavy armor. The heroes are covered in scars and everything.

The way they characterized Agamemnon is great too. Even though he comes off as a total brute and a primitive from my perspective, he's exactly the kind of warrior king who would probably unite the various Greek kingdoms with an iron fist.

The most morally upright character in the film is definitely Hector, just like in the original epic, and I thought Eric Bana played him with such professionalism and warmth. Bloom, on the other hand, once again played something that seems to be becoming his type—sort of a dainty guy with a bow and arrow. We might not all love that interpretation, but that's just how Paris of Troy was envisioned.

My personal favorites have to be Eric Bana = Hector and, of course, mostly because I find Sean Bean = Odysseus to be a really likable actor. It's a shame they didn't give his character more screen time, but it makes me hope we'll get a high-quality adaptation of the Odyssey sometime soon.

Some of the costume choices are historically inaccurate (like the fuller, or the grooves on the swords, which I noticed right away), but the overall shape, feel, and level of technology shown in the film is fine. You have to remember the movie needs a certain dose of epic scale, so it wasn't surprising that some things were oversized (like the gates or the walls of Troy).

Of course, the movie isn't entirely faithful to the original, but I think the script changes work okay within the film's narrative. I really liked the movie mostly because I didn't experience it as some sort of epic fantasy like Lord of the Rings, but rather as a very 'faithful' (subjectively speaking, though if you analyze it, there are flaws, as always with a Hollywood production) semi-historical epic.

Alongside Gladiator, this is one of my favorites. I think it will help reinvent the historical spectacle genre, and I'll be among the first people cheering when those kinds of movies return to the big screen.

Thank God we finally got a concrete (and pretty good) post. 👍

(And if Odysseus had a better script... which leads me to think that the Troy script isn't exactly a masterpiece—even critics have plenty to complain about—but still 👍 and Sean Bean 👍 )

Man, I was just scrolling back through this thread and stumbled upon the cast list... and there it was! I knew I was forgetting something crucial... 🙏 Peter O'Toole as Priam 👍 👋 :klap:

Absolutely, positively incredible!

The movie was alright. Actually, I thought it was quite good.

...

And that’s actually a problem. Movies like this aren't supposed to just be "alright" or "good." They have to be "HOLY COW, I NEED TO GO SEE THIS AGAIN NEXT WEEK AND THE WEEK AFTER THAT!!!!!" It needs to feel... epic. Like when I first saw Star Wars, or Ben Hur, or Quo Vadis, or Lord of the Rings.

Then again, I’m still being optimistic here. One by one, my friends told me they didn't like it. But it wouldn't be so bad if my friends, much like myself, happen to loathe these specific kinds of films. They complained that the dialogue felt cheap (which I agree with) and that everything was terribly pathetic (though I beg to differ—I mean, if an epic isn't going to be pathetic and larger-than-life, what's the point?). We all loved the mano-a-mano duels, but we really missed those massive battle scenes you see in LoTR.

Hector was cool, just like in the Iliad (I remember even as a kid thinking Hector was totally awesome; there's that scene in the epic where he plays with his son on the wall and says goodbye to his wife before heading to battle... great guy!). Achilles was a total prima donna, just like in the poem, and I think Brad Pitt did a solid job. Paris was a surprising coward. I mean, I know from the Iliad that he isn't exactly a hero, but for him to be *that* pathetic... well, Peter O'Toole is Peter O'Toole, so that says everything I need to say about him.🙂

I have to mention the female characters too. Andromache was fine. Helen was a bit of a non-entity. Seriously? She’s the most beautiful woman in the world? "The face that launched a thousand ships?" Look, full credit to Diane Kruger—she is undeniably gorgeous. But beauty isn't everything. You need charisma and presence. You need to be the kind of woman who, when she smiles at a guy, makes him lose his mind. You have to act... well, like the most stunning queen in the entire world. We were just discussing how Monica Bellucci would have been perfect for the role. She’s got the look and the presence. Honestly, throw Monica Bellucci in some rags, smudge some dirt on her face, and half the guys in the room would be sighing the moment she hits the screen. As it stands, Helen comes across as some bland, pretty girl who, much like Andromache, only knows how to talk about love, eternity, and flowers. Though, it wouldn't be so bad if those lines actually sounded convincing.

Briseis is the only one of the three who actually shows some personality. I liked it when Achilles tells her, "You fought against soldiers; that takes courage," and she snaps back, "That isn't courage. That's how a dog fights when you attack it." If there is any line in this movie that sounded genuinely heroic to me, that was it. And I say that about a film where every other sentence is about "immortal names" and honor and all that crap.

This might sound like I'm whining, but I had to explain why the film wasn't "great" for me, even if it was "good." The movie feels thin. It lacks that epic scale. I miss the gods and monsters from the Iliad, and I miss that "bigger than life" sensation. I don't understand why they even attempted historical authenticity. Like I said before, first of all, I don't know where they even got their historical data on the Trojan War, and second, it seems bizarre to me that Hollywood would suddenly decide to make "historically realistic" epics. What the hell?

The most epic part was when Achilles, with just his own contingent and soldiers, goes on the attack against the Trojans before the Greeks even land on the shore. Now, *that* was epic!🙂

My one serious grievance with the film: an epic war doesn't last five days. That sounds more like the US Army's conflict with Canada. Do you know of any epic poems about the US Army fighting Canada? I didn't think so. That’s why there aren't many massive battle scenes in the movie. They simply didn't have enough time to Fight!

It seems to me that Troy wanted to have its cake and eat it too: they wanted to make a film that was both historically realistic *and* epic at the same time. My impression is that they succeeded at neither, landing somewhere awkwardly in the middle.

There really isn't any other option: we just have to wait and hope that the Chinese "Hero" makes its way to Cinemark so you can finally witness what a truly epic story looks like. You might also find it worthwhile to revisit Dan Simmons' "Ilium" to see his particular take on the Greek heroes. Honestly, in that version, Helen is very cool.

Watched the movie yesterday.
It left me feeling indifferent, even though if you look closely, this version is actually more historically accurate than Homer's. 😁The idea that the entire Greek army wasted ten years outside Troy while shepherds, women, and children were left to defend Greece just seems idiotic.

The film wasn't exactly boring, but it wasn't exactly a knockout either—nothing to make you jump out of your seat with brilliant scenes. Honestly, it could have easily run for 18 hours instead of 3 and I would’ve just sat there watching like I was scrolling through some random website. I wouldn't have been bored, but I wouldn't have been on the edge of my seat, either. Just zombie-fied.

Achilles is the best character in the film, followed by Odysseus.
The worst is Priam. He's incredibly dim-witted, taking advice from some guy who says things like, "Apollo is angry, we must attack" (because apparently, if you know military strategy, you're just some religious fanatic with a stupid beard). He doesn't even blink once during the whole movie. He even died with his eyes wide open. And the acting? Stiff and expressionless. Give this man an Oscar. Actually, make it two. One for each eye.
Hector and even Paris have more sense than that obviously senile old man. This blitzkrieg would have ended much better if he had listened to them instead of that Jehovah's Witness type.

The fight between Achilles and Hector was top-tier.

Of course, they had to sweeten the ending, so Andromache, the baby, Helen, Paris, and Bris all escape. I suppose Hollywood would have spontaneously combusted if the film had ended with Hector's child being a stain in front of the walls of Troy.

The strongest scene for me was when Odysseus comes for Achilles, and that final shot where it's Achilles, Patroclus, and then Odysseus behind them, followed by that super fast zoom on Odysseus saying something about how this war will be remembered. That zoom reminded me of those oh-so-80s kung-fu movies with Cynthia Rostock (or something) that were packed with zooms like that, which even happen occasionally in Greece. You can tell Wolfgang knows his stuff.

Hahahaa, if Sean Bean had actually said that word in Ancient Greek, it might have worked! But instead, we get that incredibly awkward voiceover—that total lack of synchronization during "This... war... will be remembered" (and then he just keeps rambling for another twenty seconds!) 😂

Personally, I’d much prefer it if things went down with Hector's kid, rather than what happened in the Iliad when they just slaughtered him right at the walls through no fault of his own.

Don't you dare insult Paris... look, back in those days, the overlap between religious thought and realpolitik was probably way tighter and more interconnected than our modern perspective allows us to see. Still, you're right; that was easily the dumbest scene and the most illogical move in the whole thing.

I don't care if everyone comes for me now with pitchforks and stones, but Paris didn't come across as being all soft (silentpilot6: so pick) or anything... he was just... different. An emotional guy, an idealist, leaning hard into that "love conquers all" cliché... basically a naive soul. And then he goes and screws over both his old man and his entire nation with that amateurish sentimentality.

casualotter21 said:We were just saying Monica Bellucci would be perfect for the role. She’s stunning and a great actress. Honestly, just put Monica Bellucci in some rags, smear some mud on her face, and half the guys out there will be swooning the moment she hits the screen.

If Monica's face can't launch my little 4-foot dinghy, it certainly isn't launching a fleet of 1,000 ships.

rapidstag74 said:Of course they had to sweeten the deal at the end, so we get that little escape with Andromache, the baby, Helen, Paris, and Bris. Honestly, I feel like Hollywood would have just spontaneously combusted if the movie had wrapped up with Hector's child being left as nothing more than a stain on the walls of Troy.

That sounds like it could definitely work for a sequel. The Aeneid: a true story.

Honestly, my absolute favorite scene in the movie has to be that intense moment when Odysseus goes to find Achilles. There’s this incredible final shot where you see Achilles and Patroclus standing there, with Odysseus right behind them, and then the camera does this super fast, dramatic zoom straight onto Odysseus as he delivers that powerful line about how this war is going to be remembered forever. It just hits so hard.

Did you catch that? 😁
I guess that’s probably meant to be a little homage to the classics. Sword & Sandals I’ve always had a soft spot for those old episodes, especially the ones that feel a bit cheesy, like the ones starring Steve Reeves.

Ugh, yeah, I checked it out too.
I wasn't expecting much... and honestly, I didn't walk away with much either. 😁
It’s like they just couldn't make up their minds, you know? They couldn't decide if they wanted to stage this as a "realistic" historical epic or just lean into the mythic side of things.
So, there are no gods involved, and then you have this sissy version of Paris hitting Achilles in the heel—you know, *that* specific way (was it an accident? Who knows... 😁 )... And don't even get me started on the dialogue; it’s almost always a struggle to sit through because everyone is "overacting" so much, though I suppose Peter O'Toole and Brian Cox are the exceptions since they actually make sense when they perform.
The battle scenes look flashy enough at first, but after the initial rush, they become incredibly predictable—it's just the same old thing, right? A little bit of close-quarters combat, a little bit of that "bird's-eye CGI perspective," some fireballs, some ships... and that's basically the whole show.

It isn't exactly a snooze-fest... but by the time I walked out of the theater, I had already forgotten most of it. 🙄

rapidstag74 said:Just Monica's. face It certainly wouldn't launch my four-meter boat, let alone a fleet of a thousand vessels.

Whether there's a face or not, I say it's nothing but flintlocks at dawn!

Honestly, I think I would have found it much more entertaining to see Helen portrayed exactly how she appears in *Ilium*. As it stands, that version of Helen could probably handle Helen, Priam, Andromache, and Paris all at once with just one hand.

Ilium is quite impressive.

I honestly can't help but feel like those old-school historical flicks starring Steve Reeves just had a certain level of authenticity they totally lack today: 😁

http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/stevereeves1.html

casualotter21 said: I have just one single, serious grievance with this movie: an epic war doesn't last five days! That’s about as long as the US Army's skirmish with certain neighboring states used to feel. Is there even a single epic poem written about those brief clashes? I didn't think so.

😂 GNNlegendocare !!!!111one 🙏 🙏 🙏 👋

😂 🤣

That explains why there aren't many massive battle scenes in the film. They simply didn't have enough time to Fight!

It seems to me that at the end of the day, the makers of Troy wanted to have their cake and eat it too: they tried to make a historically realistic *and* epic film at the exact same time. My impression? They failed at both and ended up with something stuck awkwardly in the middle.

There's no other way: we just have to wait and hope that the Chinese "Hero" hits theaters so we can see what a real epic looks like. Also, you really ought to re-read Dan Simmons' "Ilium" to see how he portrays those Greek heroes. Man, Helen is very cool in that one.

Such a sharp, brilliant analysis! 👋 Honestly, I liked the movie more simply because Greek mythology was such a huge part of my childhood. The Iliad (the one with the pictures—I remember them being incredible, especially how fierce Achilles looked... heck, even Patroclus looked competent 😕 WTF?) was the first fantasy story I ever read on my own (well, for some people it's The Hedgehog, for others it's the Iliad), so it holds massive sentimental value for me. Finally seeing those illustrations come to life, moving and speaking!

By the way, did I notice "monsters" and CGI lens-flare fireballs being mentioned in the context of the Iliad? Hmmm... haven't we mixed up our stories with Odyssey & Aeneid? As far as I recall, the only fantastical elements in the Iliad are the gods and their internal warring; those Greek guys are anthropomorphic anyway, fighting with the same old armor, swords, and spears as the little humans down below the cursor. 😁

But wouldn't I love to see the hot goddess Athena absolutely wreck her idiot brother Ares when he starts crying and running away like a total coward? Oh man... honestly, Athena has always been the hottest of the Greek gods to me. Forget that flat Aphrodite... Athens over Aphrodite every day !

No, I just absolutely cannot pass up inspiration like this:

Invocation:

The Aeneid of Janez, part of Janez's legacy
(Sing, oh Muse, the passion of Janez's son, Janez)

Wait, here’s a blind smiley face for me ---> 😎

Actually, this one is better ---> 🙂 (this girl in headphones definitely explains why someone would write an epic about a terrifying siege of Canada by Mexicans)

The Achilles heroes sneak into Troy through a ruse, hiding a massive wooden horse filled with their best fighters inside. The whole city gets leveled, but Aeneas makes it out alive to eventually build the Roman Empire.

Nancy Kim2 said:I mean, who wouldn't love watching a hot girl like Athena absolutely crush her idiot brother Ares, especially if he ends up crying and running away like a total coward... god, that would be something. Honestly, Athena has always been the hottest goddess in the whole pantheon to me; forget Aphrodite... give me Athens over Aphrodite every day!

A bit of a tangent here, but: have you ever read Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson? There's this one really interesting... way he approaches the whole idea of Athena vs. Ares...

Good grief, Spoilerman, you actually did it... you spoiled the whole damn book! 🙂 😂 (What an absolute moron) 🤣

And here I was, thinking a Trojan Horse was some kind of rare breed of hippopotamus... honestly, I just believed whatever I read on that one survey over at Po Ure Torture 😁

jay said:A bit of thread drift here, but: have you ever read Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson? It features a rather fascinating... exposition, if you will, regarding the theme of Athena vs. Ares.

And? What’s the verdict?

Nancy Kim2 said:Honestly, I enjoyed the movie more because those myths were such a huge part of my childhood,

It was just incredible to see those old stories come to life, actually moving and speaking.

The only truly epic thing about the Iliad is the gods and their constant
fighting, ....

😕 But what does this movie even have to do with the Iliad? 😕

It’s just a flashy Hollywood romp that you can enjoy if you don't know anything (like most people in the audience) about the actual Iliad.
From the very beginning—when Paris hands the apple to Aphrodite—the gods dictate everyone's fate, but they aren't even in this movie. Even Achilles' mother feels vague and unconvincing here. And Achilles, goodness me 😁, comes across as the smartest guy among the Greeks. He's a fascinating character in this farce, but again, it has nothing to do with the Iliad.

The film is full of handsome Hollywood stars, but I doubt a single one of the true Greek or Trojan heroes would recognize themselves if they somehow sat down to watch this.😉