Arming Ukraine

Andrew Miller102 said:It’s a pretty brilliant move, really, laying everything out in the open and being transparent about exactly what's heading into Ukraine.😵

It isn't as if Russia hasn't figured this out already, and acting like having a Patriot missile guarding that airfield provides some kind of ironclad security is optimistic at best. A Patriot is essentially useless if Russia decides to retaliate by tossing a few Kinzhal supersonic missiles their way just for the hell of it.☕

Honestly, it would be better if the Patriot actually shot it down, just so all this posturing could finally stop.

If Russ actually pulled it off, maybe the response would just be more Patriots stationed in western Ukraine...
Or perhaps they'd just hand the Ukrainians 50 Tomahawks so they could have a little fun hitting targets inside Russia.

rowdyraven112 said:Oh sure, and the working class is going to foot the entire bill. ☕

They're buying 4th-gen jets, they're buying Bradley fighting vehicles. The Prime Minister is only even thinking about getting a Patriot missile system just so he can act tough. For Christ's sake, the average salary is $70,000. We've got the money, if we want to spend it. ☕

A nation requires funding, and an army demands its share. It is an absolute necessity. But one must ask: what is the true price of a lost war?
What is the true price tag on national survival?
What is the true price of liberty?
What is the true price of admission to the Western world, if one seeks a life that possesses even a modicum of human dignity?

Should we simply surrender and hand everything back to Russia within their sphere of influence? I might actually be open to that proposition if someone could point to just ONE nation that has truly benefited from a marriage with Russia. Just one single example...

rowdyraven112 said:There’s footage from Mariupol showing Ukrainians hitting a tank. It took four missiles just to stop it. And that's not an isolated case. Fine, go play Call of Duty. In that game, you can just blast a tank with a rocket launcher on the first shot and be done with it.☕

That was an RPG-7, which is basically ancient history—just like the T-72 itself. It’s pretty obvious why it struggles against a system that's 40+ years old.

Check out what happens when they actually get hit by modern anti-tank weaponry. In this one, it's a Stugna-P, a locally made piece of tech from Ukraine; the turret just gets blown right off the chassis instantly. ☕

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/statu...50332772933636

Then you’ve got the heavy hitters too, like Javelins, NLAWs, and Panzerfaust 3s...

Mark Clark6 said:A nation requires funding, and an army demands its share. It is an absolute necessity. But one must ask: what is the true price of a lost war?
What is the true price tag on national survival?
What is the true price of liberty?
What is the true price of admission to the Western world, if one seeks a life that possesses even a modicum of human dignity?

Should we simply surrender and hand everything back to Russia within their sphere of influence? I might actually be open to that proposition if someone could point to just ONE nation that has truly benefited from a marriage with Russia. Just one single example...

We’re handing out stuff bought with OUR tax dollars like it’s free. America didn't cause the crisis in Ukraine, yet we're throwing money away just to kiss up to powerful leaders. ☕

Do we even have enough for ourselves while we're tossing money around? Or are we just banking on NATO to bail us out? When the shit hits the fan, those big players will look out for themselves first. If we get lucky, fine. If not, we're on our own. ☕

Look at Canada. They aren't giving it away. Look at Israel. They aren't giving it away. Turkey sells their support. Nothing is free. ☕

Mark Clark6 said:A nation requires funding, and an army demands its share. It is an absolute necessity. But one must ask: what is the true price of a lost war?
What is the true price tag on national survival?
What is the true price of liberty?
What is the true price of admission to the Western world, if one seeks a life that possesses even a modicum of human dignity?

Should we simply surrender and hand everything back to Russia within their sphere of influence? I might actually be open to that proposition if someone could point to just ONE nation that has truly benefited from a marriage with Russia. Just one single example...

If you ask me, that kind of reasoning isn't actually about wanting to belong to Russia or any other power bloc... it’s nothing more than pure, unadulterated selfishness.

It’s the exact same mindset as people during the pandemic asking, "Why should I wear a mask if it doesn't protect me personally?" Or drivers refusing to use a turn signal because they don't care if the person behind them knows where they're turning... it's all the same lack of civic duty.

lp

hollowdriver13 said:That was an RPG-7, which is basically ancient history—just like the T-72 itself. It’s pretty obvious why it struggles against a system that's 40+ years old.

Check out what happens when they actually get hit by modern anti-tank weaponry. In this one, it's a Stugna-P, a locally made piece of tech from Ukraine; the turret just gets blown right off the chassis instantly. ☕

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/statu...50332772933636

Then you’ve got the heavy hitters too, like Javelins, NLAWs, and Panzerfaust 3s...

The tank is gone. Operator had enough time to brew and drink a coffee. ☕

When a tank is in a city, you don't use a Stug; you use the stuff I just mentioned. You fire, you pop out, and you hope for the best. In urban combat, hitting a moving target is damn hard, especially if they have support. Ask the Memphis defenders how many rounds they had to dump into a single tank. Don't talk to me like I'm playing Call of Duty.

rowdyraven112 said:The tank is gone. Operator had enough time to brew and drink a coffee. ☕

When a tank is in a city, you don't use a Stug; you use the stuff I just mentioned. You fire, you pop out, and you hope for the best. In urban combat, hitting a moving target is damn hard, especially if they have support. Ask the Memphis defenders how many rounds they had to dump into a single tank. Don't talk to me like I'm playing Call of Duty.

Only if Russian steel happens to be better than Swedish steel. 🙄

I bet you're wondering... what kind of logic is that?!

rowdyraven112 said:The tank is gone. Operator had enough time to brew and drink a coffee. ☕

When a tank is in a city, you don't use a Stug; you use the stuff I just mentioned. You fire, you pop out, and you hope for the best. In urban combat, hitting a moving target is damn hard, especially if they have support. Ask the Memphis defenders how many rounds they had to dump into a single tank. Don't talk to me like I'm playing Call of Duty.

I mean, sure, but the Russians are using their armor like complete idiots. It feels like they've been playing too many Western video games. Honestly, the NLAW is perfect for street fighting—it has that soft launch feature so you can fire from inside a building, plus it’s a fire-and-forget system. It also features both top-attack and direct attack modes, and the target acquisition is faster than a Javelin (which is why its range is shorter at 800m compared to 1.6 miles).
Unfortunately, Memphis didn't have anything remotely close to those high-tech "toys."

hollowdriver13 said:I mean, sure, but the Russians are using their armor like complete idiots. It feels like they've been playing too many Western video games. Honestly, the NLAW is perfect for street fighting—it has that soft launch feature so you can fire from inside a building, plus it’s a fire-and-forget system. It also features both top-attack and direct attack modes, and the target acquisition is faster than a Javelin (which is why its range is shorter at 800m compared to 1.6 miles).
Unfortunately, Memphis didn't have anything remotely close to those high-tech "toys."

And they didn't. We had axes, shovels, and grenades. And it was never enough. The question was always why Ukrainians need so much more? Because it’s never enough.

This new generation, trained on Call of Duty battlefields, thinks a single rocket or bullet just magically finds its way to the first Russian tank or soldier they see. ☕

You see posts where a tank gets taken out instantly in an open field, especially if the operator has clear sight and a second team is providing cover. But you see videos from inside cities where taking one out isn't exactly child's play unless you're using an armed drone.

Mark Clark6 said:A nation requires funding, and an army demands its share. It is an absolute necessity. But one must ask: what is the true price of a lost war?
What is the true price tag on national survival?
What is the true price of liberty?
What is the true price of admission to the Western world, if one seeks a life that possesses even a modicum of human dignity?

Should we simply surrender and hand everything back to Russia within their sphere of influence? I might actually be open to that proposition if someone could point to just ONE nation that has truly benefited from a marriage with Russia. Just one single example...

And then you’ve got these people whining like hypocrites about how we shouldn't spend money on infrastructure or schools. In their wet little dreams, they’re basically praying to see the Red Army marching through Times Square. That tells you everything you need to know.

A Ukrainian Boeing heading over to Turkey for another round of playing games

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...qQAH9kJ8Q&s=19

casualtiger2 said:That’s 13,000 anti-tank rounds—not even counting what they already have in stock.
Why on earth do they need that many when Russia doesn't even have that many tanks left?

Well, I guess it's because you aren't just aiming at tanks and armored vehicles with stuff like that.
You're hitting everything—transport vehicles, bunkers, fortified positions... those expensive, high-end systems like the Javelin or NLAW are specifically meant for armor. But plenty of other systems come with different types of warheads. Some are designed more for smashing through bunkers or reinforced buildings, maybe penetrating about 10 cm of plating... and most targets infantry run into during a fight aren't heavy-duty tanks or armored units.
An astronomically pricey Javelin will hit and wreck almost any tank at 2,500 meters with maybe 95% accuracy, even if it's moving fast... whereas a cheap anti-tank launcher might only hit a stationary target at 200-300 meters with a 50% or 60% chance.

The gear gets distributed across all the units, because, well, you never really know which unit is going to get pulled into intense combat and which one might spend the whole war sitting in a position where they won't see an enemy at all.
etc...

Carl Lee27 said:A Ukrainian Boeing heading over to Turkey for another round of playing games

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...qQAH9kJ8Q&s=19

I suppose I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the Russian command... just staring on with this sense of pure dread and helpless rage as they realize they're stuck. Their whole operational concept just fell apart... and now they're just watching while NATO sends the Ukrainians whatever they feel like giving them...

I’m hoping this summit finally pushes NATO to drop the hesitation regarding weapon shipments to Ukrainians. They really ought to stop worrying about upsetting the Russians and just provide everything they possibly can.

It would be especially helpful if they reconsidered providing that anti-ship weaponry—they should definitely think about protecting Odessa—and I’m also hoping some long-range missiles might make their way over there.

Just a few quick thoughts on what Ukraine actually needs right now. It’s pretty much what anyone can see if they’re paying attention—Russia just doesn't have the technological or industrial muscle to keep up with what the Ukrainians are receiving from the West lately. I mean, the heavy hitters are things like those precision-guided missiles, all the different drones, night vision optics, and the various air defense systems being sent over.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...t-ukraine.html

rowdyraven112 said:We’re handing out stuff bought with OUR tax dollars like it’s free. America didn't cause the crisis in Ukraine, yet we're throwing money away just to kiss up to powerful leaders. ☕

Do we even have enough for ourselves while we're tossing money around? Or are we just banking on NATO to bail us out? When the shit hits the fan, those big players will look out for themselves first. If we get lucky, fine. If not, we're on our own. ☕

Look at Canada. They aren't giving it away. Look at Israel. They aren't giving it away. Turkey sells their support. Nothing is free. ☕

And what about during that massive earthquake—where do you think that money came from? Seriously, how can you write such total nonsense? There's a huge difference between the government messing up the recovery funds and the fact that the money was actually available. That wasn't "American taxpayer" money being wasted. If we were truly on our own, we wouldn't have survived COVID or the earthquake. And honestly, you could quit acting like such a smart-ass with these coffee shop debates—what, you think you're the smartest guy in the room or something?

rowdyraven112 said:Oh sure, and the working class is going to foot the entire bill. ☕

They're buying 4th-gen jets, they're buying Bradley fighting vehicles. The Prime Minister is only even thinking about getting a Patriot missile system just so he can act tough. For Christ's sake, the average salary is $70,000. We've got the money, if we want to spend it. ☕

Man, you seriously have no clue what you're talking about... you're definitely not the first person to say this, and you won't be the last...

Just keep going with that "look how great everything is" attitude of yours...😒

Timothy Nelson5 said:I suppose I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the Russian command... just staring on with this sense of pure dread and helpless rage as they realize they're stuck. Their whole operational concept just fell apart... and now they're just watching while NATO sends the Ukrainians whatever they feel like giving them...

It’s like these fools are just trapped in a loop of space and time... you’d think they actually learned something after what happened in Chechnya, but here we are... it's total déjà vu.
On one hand, you have to admit there's a certain satisfaction in watching it, but on the other, when an evil force wields such a massive club—an absolutely humongous club—I really fear they might just snap and start swinging it wildly at everyone, regardless of the fallout...

Timothy Nelson5 said:I suppose I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the Russian command... just staring on with this sense of pure dread and helpless rage as they realize they're stuck. Their whole operational concept just fell apart... and now they're just watching while NATO sends the Ukrainians whatever they feel like giving them...

Whatever they feel like???

Sorry, but that is nowhere near being what the Ukrainians actually want!
It reminds me of 1945 and the Volkssturm—it's like saying, "Here, take this Panzerfaust and good luck, whoever survives... just try to defend your own doorstep..."

rowdyraven112 said:Oh sure, and the working class is going to foot the entire bill. ☕

They're buying 4th-gen jets, they're buying Bradley fighting vehicles. The Prime Minister is only even thinking about getting a Patriot missile system just so he can act tough. For Christ's sake, the average salary is $70,000. We've got the money, if we want to spend it. ☕

Living next door to those barbarians from the East comes with a price tag. For Ukrainians and Americans alike.

brightheron64 said:It’s like these fools are just trapped in a loop of space and time... you’d think they actually learned something after what happened in Chechnya, but here we are... it's total déjà vu.
On one hand, you have to admit there's a certain satisfaction in watching it, but on the other, when an evil force wields such a massive club—an absolutely humongous club—I really fear they might just snap and start swinging it wildly at everyone, regardless of the fallout...

Whatever they feel like???

Sorry, but that is nowhere near being what the Ukrainians actually want!
It reminds me of 1945 and the Volkssturm—it's like saying, "Here, take this Panzerfaust and good luck, whoever survives... just try to defend your own doorstep..."

Actually, yeah.

I mean, sorry, but that’s still a long way from what the Ukrainians actually want.
It kind of reminds me of '45... I guess. Home Guard "Here, take this Bazooka... whoever survives, survives, I suppose. You just do what you have to when you're defending your own home."

So, there’s this fundamental difference between firing a Bazooka at a tank from about 30 meters away versus using a Javelin... I guess it really comes down to how you're actually engaging the target. One is basically a short-range punch, while the other is a whole different beast entirely. Maybe it’s worth looking at the mechanics of it, if you have the patience for that. 1.2 miles I mean, he just tracks that tank and absolutely shreds every single one of them... hm...