Lisa Jackson7 said:Just a heads-up... absolute, undeniable proof only exists in math and logic. In English, there’s a massive distinction between "proof" and "evidence"—something that gets totally lost in translation elsewhere—and honestly, that lack of clarity just causes more confusion.
So you gave your take on the problem of evil, but didn't drop any "irrefutable proof"—and then you go and link it to whether the Earth is round by bringing up some "army of intellectually dishonest theologians"... seriously?
Which ones? Like, in general, or specifically here on this forum? Look, I’m no theologian or philosopher, and aside from maybe a couple of exceptions, I’m pretty damn sure we don't have anyone like that hanging out here.
Look, you’ve already answered the problem of evil—not with some dry theological lecture or a bunch of philosophical jargon, but just straight from the gut, intuitively... honestly, it's hard for me to even wrap my head around how anyone lives with such a bleak perspective as yours, if you actually believe it.
The "Flat Earth" thing isn't even worth trying to debunk... Elvis Presley is just talking nonsense—people already addressed that on the first page of this thread, including plenty of believers (myself included). So what, are we supposed to start running ads for him now?
Since it’s obvious all the theists have basically thrown in the towel at this point—I mean, really—we have to ask ourselves one thing: what actually sets the majority of these theists apart from Elvis Presley, if we're talking about pure intellectual dishonesty?
Look, I’m not saying atheists—you know, the low-rent kind who think everything just pops out of thin air—are any less intellectually dishonest than theists. But right now we’re looking at the dishonesty coming from the believers, so that’s my challenge to the theists!
Look, since you're out here throwing Dostoevsky around—and let's be real, the guy was a massive believer, just not in the way the Russian Orthodox Church of his era would have ever signed off on...—just stick to his actual quotes.
Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky
If you’re actually trying to get somewhere but start stopping every five minutes to throw rocks at every damn dog that barks at you—you're never gonna make it. Period.
A true realist—if they don't believe—will always find the grit and the willpower to reject a miracle. Even if a miracle hits them right in the face as an undeniable fact? They’ll doubt their own damn senses before they ever admit what actually happened.
It’s crazy how many people out there don't even think for themselves—they just coast through life living off everyone else's wisdom.
Look, just having brains isn't enough if you want to actually act smart—you need more than just logic.
Virtue doesn't even exist without immortality.
Look, the whole point of being alive isn't just breathing—it's knowing *why* you're doing it. Without some rock-solid reason to get out of bed, people would just give up on life entirely—they’d destroy themselves long before they ever left this earth, even if there was a buffet laid out for them everywhere they turned.
Nothing pulls at a person more than the freedom of their own conscience, but man, nothing is harder to carry either.
In my book, choosing to sacrifice your entire self for the sake of everyone else—doing it willingly, fully aware, and without being forced—is the ultimate sign of self-control and true free will. Only the most evolved kind of person can voluntarily lay down their life for the common good, stepping onto the cross or the pyre for the sake of all.
Until you actually become a brother to everyone, real brotherhood isn't happening. People are never going to be able to use science or any other fancy tools to divide up goods and rights without screwing each other over. It’ll always feel like someone’s getting shortchanged, and people will just keep grumbling and tearing each other apart.
Proof = Any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something!
Evidence = An indication that makes something evident
There is
proof that the Earth is round!
But there is plenty of
evidence that Perfect Being Theology is unsustainable.
Was that the distinction you were thinking of?
Lisa Jackson7 said:Just a heads-up... absolute, undeniable proof only exists in math and logic. In English, there’s a massive distinction between "proof" and "evidence"—something that gets totally lost in translation elsewhere—and honestly, that lack of clarity just causes more confusion.
So you gave your take on the problem of evil, but didn't drop any "irrefutable proof"—and then you go and link it to whether the Earth is round by bringing up some "army of intellectually dishonest theologians"... seriously?
Which ones? Like, in general, or specifically here on this forum? Look, I’m no theologian or philosopher, and aside from maybe a couple of exceptions, I’m pretty damn sure we don't have anyone like that hanging out here.
Look, you’ve already answered the problem of evil—not with some dry theological lecture or a bunch of philosophical jargon, but just straight from the gut, intuitively... honestly, it's hard for me to even wrap my head around how anyone lives with such a bleak perspective as yours, if you actually believe it.
The "Flat Earth" thing isn't even worth trying to debunk... Elvis Presley is just talking nonsense—people already addressed that on the first page of this thread, including plenty of believers (myself included). So what, are we supposed to start running ads for him now?
Since it’s obvious all the theists have basically thrown in the towel at this point—I mean, really—we have to ask ourselves one thing: what actually sets the majority of these theists apart from Elvis Presley, if we're talking about pure intellectual dishonesty?
Look, I’m not saying atheists—you know, the low-rent kind who think everything just pops out of thin air—are any less intellectually dishonest than theists. But right now we’re looking at the dishonesty coming from the believers, so that’s my challenge to the theists!
Look, since you're out here throwing Dostoevsky around—and let's be real, the guy was a massive believer, just not in the way the Russian Orthodox Church of his era would have ever signed off on...—just stick to his actual quotes.
Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky
If you’re actually trying to get somewhere but start stopping every five minutes to throw rocks at every damn dog that barks at you—you're never gonna make it. Period.
A true realist—if they don't believe—will always find the grit and the willpower to reject a miracle. Even if a miracle hits them right in the face as an undeniable fact? They’ll doubt their own damn senses before they ever admit what actually happened.
It’s crazy how many people out there don't even think for themselves—they just coast through life living off everyone else's wisdom.
Look, just having brains isn't enough if you want to actually act smart—you need more than just logic.
Virtue doesn't even exist without immortality.
Look, the whole point of being alive isn't just breathing—it's knowing *why* you're doing it. Without some rock-solid reason to get out of bed, people would just give up on life entirely—they’d destroy themselves long before they ever left this earth, even if there was a buffet laid out for them everywhere they turned.
Nothing pulls at a person more than the freedom of their own conscience, but man, nothing is harder to carry either.
In my book, choosing to sacrifice your entire self for the sake of everyone else—doing it willingly, fully aware, and without being forced—is the ultimate sign of self-control and true free will. Only the most evolved kind of person can voluntarily lay down their life for the common good, stepping onto the cross or the pyre for the sake of all.
Until you actually become a brother to everyone, real brotherhood isn't happening. People are never going to be able to use science or any other fancy tools to divide up goods and rights without screwing each other over. It’ll always feel like someone’s getting shortchanged, and people will just keep grumbling and tearing each other apart.
Look, I'm just asking for even a shred of evidence, if not outright proof, that God treats us any better than we treat cockroaches. And as I’ve pointed out a thousand times already, I am genuinely wishing for such an
indication, though I'd be even happier if someone could point me toward actual
proof.
As for why I linked the lack of proof—that we are more precious in God's eyes than cockroaches are in ours—to the shape of the Earth: I was using that comparison to highlight how some people (like Elvis Presley) know perfectly well the Earth isn't a flat disc, yet they claim it is anyway. Similarly, there are others who know deep down that the endless tragedies, genocides, diseases, wars, famine, and injustice in this world—combined with the blatant contradictions and unconvincing nature of various theodicies (which try to blame humans rather than God for suffering and death)—should prevent them from selling philosophical-theological fairy tales to people with clear consciences. But they do it anyway. In both cases, we're talking about massive intellectual dishonesty.
Lisa Jackson7 said:Just a heads-up... absolute, undeniable proof only exists in math and logic. In English, there’s a massive distinction between "proof" and "evidence"—something that gets totally lost in translation elsewhere—and honestly, that lack of clarity just causes more confusion.
So you gave your take on the problem of evil, but didn't drop any "irrefutable proof"—and then you go and link it to whether the Earth is round by bringing up some "army of intellectually dishonest theologians"... seriously?
Which ones? Like, in general, or specifically here on this forum? Look, I’m no theologian or philosopher, and aside from maybe a couple of exceptions, I’m pretty damn sure we don't have anyone like that hanging out here.
Look, you’ve already answered the problem of evil—not with some dry theological lecture or a bunch of philosophical jargon, but just straight from the gut, intuitively... honestly, it's hard for me to even wrap my head around how anyone lives with such a bleak perspective as yours, if you actually believe it.
The "Flat Earth" thing isn't even worth trying to debunk... Elvis Presley is just talking nonsense—people already addressed that on the first page of this thread, including plenty of believers (myself included). So what, are we supposed to start running ads for him now?
Since it’s obvious all the theists have basically thrown in the towel at this point—I mean, really—we have to ask ourselves one thing: what actually sets the majority of these theists apart from Elvis Presley, if we're talking about pure intellectual dishonesty?
Look, I’m not saying atheists—you know, the low-rent kind who think everything just pops out of thin air—are any less intellectually dishonest than theists. But right now we’re looking at the dishonesty coming from the believers, so that’s my challenge to the theists!
Look, since you're out here throwing Dostoevsky around—and let's be real, the guy was a massive believer, just not in the way the Russian Orthodox Church of his era would have ever signed off on...—just stick to his actual quotes.
Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky
If you’re actually trying to get somewhere but start stopping every five minutes to throw rocks at every damn dog that barks at you—you're never gonna make it. Period.
A true realist—if they don't believe—will always find the grit and the willpower to reject a miracle. Even if a miracle hits them right in the face as an undeniable fact? They’ll doubt their own damn senses before they ever admit what actually happened.
It’s crazy how many people out there don't even think for themselves—they just coast through life living off everyone else's wisdom.
Look, just having brains isn't enough if you want to actually act smart—you need more than just logic.
Virtue doesn't even exist without immortality.
Look, the whole point of being alive isn't just breathing—it's knowing *why* you're doing it. Without some rock-solid reason to get out of bed, people would just give up on life entirely—they’d destroy themselves long before they ever left this earth, even if there was a buffet laid out for them everywhere they turned.
Nothing pulls at a person more than the freedom of their own conscience, but man, nothing is harder to carry either.
In my book, choosing to sacrifice your entire self for the sake of everyone else—doing it willingly, fully aware, and without being forced—is the ultimate sign of self-control and true free will. Only the most evolved kind of person can voluntarily lay down their life for the common good, stepping onto the cross or the pyre for the sake of all.
Until you actually become a brother to everyone, real brotherhood isn't happening. People are never going to be able to use science or any other fancy tools to divide up goods and rights without screwing each other over. It’ll always feel like someone’s getting shortchanged, and people will just keep grumbling and tearing each other apart.
I meant generally, though I suspect there are plenty of them right here on this forum too...
Lisa Jackson7 said:Just a heads-up... absolute, undeniable proof only exists in math and logic. In English, there’s a massive distinction between "proof" and "evidence"—something that gets totally lost in translation elsewhere—and honestly, that lack of clarity just causes more confusion.
So you gave your take on the problem of evil, but didn't drop any "irrefutable proof"—and then you go and link it to whether the Earth is round by bringing up some "army of intellectually dishonest theologians"... seriously?
Which ones? Like, in general, or specifically here on this forum? Look, I’m no theologian or philosopher, and aside from maybe a couple of exceptions, I’m pretty damn sure we don't have anyone like that hanging out here.
Look, you’ve already answered the problem of evil—not with some dry theological lecture or a bunch of philosophical jargon, but just straight from the gut, intuitively... honestly, it's hard for me to even wrap my head around how anyone lives with such a bleak perspective as yours, if you actually believe it.
The "Flat Earth" thing isn't even worth trying to debunk... Elvis Presley is just talking nonsense—people already addressed that on the first page of this thread, including plenty of believers (myself included). So what, are we supposed to start running ads for him now?
Since it’s obvious all the theists have basically thrown in the towel at this point—I mean, really—we have to ask ourselves one thing: what actually sets the majority of these theists apart from Elvis Presley, if we're talking about pure intellectual dishonesty?
Look, I’m not saying atheists—you know, the low-rent kind who think everything just pops out of thin air—are any less intellectually dishonest than theists. But right now we’re looking at the dishonesty coming from the believers, so that’s my challenge to the theists!
Look, since you're out here throwing Dostoevsky around—and let's be real, the guy was a massive believer, just not in the way the Russian Orthodox Church of his era would have ever signed off on...—just stick to his actual quotes.
Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky
If you’re actually trying to get somewhere but start stopping every five minutes to throw rocks at every damn dog that barks at you—you're never gonna make it. Period.
A true realist—if they don't believe—will always find the grit and the willpower to reject a miracle. Even if a miracle hits them right in the face as an undeniable fact? They’ll doubt their own damn senses before they ever admit what actually happened.
It’s crazy how many people out there don't even think for themselves—they just coast through life living off everyone else's wisdom.
Look, just having brains isn't enough if you want to actually act smart—you need more than just logic.
Virtue doesn't even exist without immortality.
Look, the whole point of being alive isn't just breathing—it's knowing *why* you're doing it. Without some rock-solid reason to get out of bed, people would just give up on life entirely—they’d destroy themselves long before they ever left this earth, even if there was a buffet laid out for them everywhere they turned.
Nothing pulls at a person more than the freedom of their own conscience, but man, nothing is harder to carry either.
In my book, choosing to sacrifice your entire self for the sake of everyone else—doing it willingly, fully aware, and without being forced—is the ultimate sign of self-control and true free will. Only the most evolved kind of person can voluntarily lay down their life for the common good, stepping onto the cross or the pyre for the sake of all.
Until you actually become a brother to everyone, real brotherhood isn't happening. People are never going to be able to use science or any other fancy tools to divide up goods and rights without screwing each other over. It’ll always feel like someone’s getting shortchanged, and people will just keep grumbling and tearing each other apart.
You haven't answered the problem of evil from a theological or philosophical standpoint (which you admitted yourself), and honestly, I don't think you realize that trying to answer it "from the heart" or intuitively is even harder. That emotional aspect is way more difficult to defend than the actual theological-philosophical side of things.
Lisa Jackson7 said:Just a heads-up... absolute, undeniable proof only exists in math and logic. In English, there’s a massive distinction between "proof" and "evidence"—something that gets totally lost in translation elsewhere—and honestly, that lack of clarity just causes more confusion.
So you gave your take on the problem of evil, but didn't drop any "irrefutable proof"—and then you go and link it to whether the Earth is round by bringing up some "army of intellectually dishonest theologians"... seriously?
Which ones? Like, in general, or specifically here on this forum? Look, I’m no theologian or philosopher, and aside from maybe a couple of exceptions, I’m pretty damn sure we don't have anyone like that hanging out here.
Look, you’ve already answered the problem of evil—not with some dry theological lecture or a bunch of philosophical jargon, but just straight from the gut, intuitively... honestly, it's hard for me to even wrap my head around how anyone lives with such a bleak perspective as yours, if you actually believe it.
The "Flat Earth" thing isn't even worth trying to debunk... Elvis Presley is just talking nonsense—people already addressed that on the first page of this thread, including plenty of believers (myself included). So what, are we supposed to start running ads for him now?
Since it’s obvious all the theists have basically thrown in the towel at this point—I mean, really—we have to ask ourselves one thing: what actually sets the majority of these theists apart from Elvis Presley, if we're talking about pure intellectual dishonesty?
Look, I’m not saying atheists—you know, the low-rent kind who think everything just pops out of thin air—are any less intellectually dishonest than theists. But right now we’re looking at the dishonesty coming from the believers, so that’s my challenge to the theists!
Look, since you're out here throwing Dostoevsky around—and let's be real, the guy was a massive believer, just not in the way the Russian Orthodox Church of his era would have ever signed off on...—just stick to his actual quotes.
Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky
If you’re actually trying to get somewhere but start stopping every five minutes to throw rocks at every damn dog that barks at you—you're never gonna make it. Period.
A true realist—if they don't believe—will always find the grit and the willpower to reject a miracle. Even if a miracle hits them right in the face as an undeniable fact? They’ll doubt their own damn senses before they ever admit what actually happened.
It’s crazy how many people out there don't even think for themselves—they just coast through life living off everyone else's wisdom.
Look, just having brains isn't enough if you want to actually act smart—you need more than just logic.
Virtue doesn't even exist without immortality.
Look, the whole point of being alive isn't just breathing—it's knowing *why* you're doing it. Without some rock-solid reason to get out of bed, people would just give up on life entirely—they’d destroy themselves long before they ever left this earth, even if there was a buffet laid out for them everywhere they turned.
Nothing pulls at a person more than the freedom of their own conscience, but man, nothing is harder to carry either.
In my book, choosing to sacrifice your entire self for the sake of everyone else—doing it willingly, fully aware, and without being forced—is the ultimate sign of self-control and true free will. Only the most evolved kind of person can voluntarily lay down their life for the common good, stepping onto the cross or the pyre for the sake of all.
Until you actually become a brother to everyone, real brotherhood isn't happening. People are never going to be able to use science or any other fancy tools to divide up goods and rights without screwing each other over. It’ll always feel like someone’s getting shortchanged, and people will just keep grumbling and tearing each other apart.
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Do you even know where that quote comes from? It's from the link I've offered multiple times in the PROBLEM OF EVIL thread, which I'm 99% sure you haven't even clicked on, right?
And now you're sitting here quoting Dostoevsky back to me? 😉
